You are correct in several things: Mainly, people who decry the use of firearms can't seem to grasp the concept that their freedom is defended by those who don't decry the use of firearms. Peace and freedom are not free, they are purchased with violence and blood, usually. I have said before that the real problem lies with those who would relegate not only their own safety, but that of myself and my family to the care of some omniscient, nameless, all-powerful, (but somehow always benevolent) AUTHORITY. They would rather trust not only their own, but everyone else's lives and possessions to the good graces of some faceless entity whose judgements are are always just. (Here I thought that was God's job). By encouraging this attitude, the psychological warriors are achieving what Sun Tsu said more than two thousand years ago, "Supreme Excellence in Warfare Lies in Destroying the Enemies' Will to Resist." When you lose, but "go down swinging," you have suffered a setback, sure, but when you feel in your mind, heart and soul that you are beaten, you are. You may go through the motions, but you're whipped. Your comment on a nation of cowards was timely. I, myself, have been branded a d******c t*******t, because of the following crimes: I am a veteran, a tax protester, a gun owner, a concealed carry permit holder, an NRA member, and even worse, a v****g Republican. I am the "Establishment's" worst nightmare, a redneck with an education. (Regarding the d******c t*******t thing, now that I think about it, it seems the only people who didn't make the list are Democraps,(not a misspell), and those who ride camels, speak Farsi, and say Allah Akbar! a lot.

California's a candidate for insolvency with a negative net worth of $127.2 billion, according to an annual financial report issued by State Auditor

The states living the Republican lifestyle are prospering.

North Dakota, currently enjoying an energy and agricultural boom, is projecting a $1.6 billion surplus over its two-year budgeting cycle.

Texas, another resource-rich state, foresees an $8.8 billion surplus over its current two-year budget cycle.

Wisconsin is looking at $484 million in black ink since kicking the unions out of their seats.

Other states with surpluses include Iowa ($800 million) and Tennessee ($580 million). West Virginia completed its 2011–12 fiscal year with a surplus of about $88 million.

And the capitalist beat goes on, while California and their liberal miscreant i***ts sink into the ocean of disrepair.

How pathetic the progressive road map.

These are definitely some the better provisions of the bill but the mass majority of it is not going to solve a lot of the issues with health care in the US in fact, it will make it worse and more intrusive into your personal privacy which violates the Constitution. Regardless, the way this law was passed was disgraceful and I for one cannot accept it due to this fact. Our own representatives who work for us, the people, did not even read the bill and still passed it into law based on intimidation and party lines...this sir, no matter what party you belong to, should offend you to your American core....it is wrong!

{ You’ll recall that this discussion was originally about Republicanism vs. democracy but you have now chosen to abandon that. Why is that ? Perhaps you want to invoke "democracy" when convenient. You’ll also recall from that exchange that Our Constitutional Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. Congress did what was right for a minority, people without health care.

I haven't abandoned anything. I believe in the Republic but I also believe in passing bills the honest and correct way. If you believe this law was passed with good intentions then you are a fool and a pawn to the government. You and your like have just handed them complete control over you once they can fully implement this horrible law. Do you understand what the big picture is? Let me guess in your little naïve world the government is going to help everyone get health insurance and save everyone money....please remove your head from your ass. This was the biggest power grab in US history under the guise of healthcare for all...congratulations...what else are you going to give up? Remember...big picture here

Regarding its passage, that’s your take on the way it went down. If they didn’t read it it’s their problem.

How cute...it's my take on the way it went down...yeah, I just made it up...and if they didn't read it it's their problem...are you stupid? Maybe you do not take things very seriously that pertain to your liberty and privacy but I and many other Americans do....again, please don't fall for it's for the good of the people here...it was a power grab done in the most despicable way...behind closed doors, no t***sparency which by the way was promised and secret deals were made to unions and other low life's they could buy out for their approval...but hey, why should I misconstrue this as a bad thing

I’ll tell you what I’m offended by. I’m offended by the fact that we have millions of uninsured people. The only western industrialized nation that lets people die because health care has been treated as a privilege and not a right. I’m offended that the health insurers and the drug makers are still making big bucks and calling the shot. Yes the system still has problems and that’s the reason why. Unconstitutional ?? I recall that the supreme court said otherwise.}

[/color=red]Healthcare is not a right, it is a privilege that has to be payed for or the country is going to go bankrupt. We cannot afford this law...it's called economics...you might want to read up on it instead of your cloward/piven manuals on how to collapse the economy.[/color]

[Liberty Quote]I would disagree with you here. Your talking about bringing down the majority of hard working Americans to pay for people who cannot afford healthcare for a multitude of reasons (i.e. illegal status in the country, parasites to society or people who smoked or drank themselves to death) and now they want me to pay for their healthcare...WRONG! Please stop looking to blame or tax everyone else to push your c*******t agenda. Please remember that the only things that you have the right to is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Do you understand what personal accountability is? If I drink, smoke or eat myself into diabetes, I do not expect everyone else to pay for my mistakes...period. This is the problem with liberals, it's always someone's else's fault or responsibility. Please don't try and tell me that I don't have a heart...I do but I also have a logical side that understands that you cannot offer this to everyone without bankrupting the whole country and bringing everyone else's health care back to the dark ages. You're right, there is a lot of misinformation going around, and you need to read more into the destructive nature of this bill sir.

{. So you think that the only people who stand to benefit from Obama care are the parasites, undocumented immigrants, and people who don’t take care of themselves?

I didn't say all but these are the people that have bankrupted the state of California...what do you think it's going to do to the rest of the country? I know...it's going to magically work because deep down I really do believe it even though it has failed everywhere else in the world. What did Einstein say about insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Really.? You deny that there are many hard working, responsible who can’t afford health care. Can you possibly be that far out of touch with reality? And of course you’ve adapted the right wing talking point about having to pay for others care. A few things about that. First of all, who do you think has been paying for sick people who have to go to the ER when they don’t have insurance. YOU AND ME! And don’t forget loss of productivity when people get sicker than they ever had to be, and that loss of productivity means loss of tax revenues and increased cost of caring for those people, including disability payments. And that’s a who lot more costly to tax payers than wh**ever Obama Care will cost.

I know who's been paying for it, me and every other hard working American and now you've just added 30 million more...thanks...my taxes weren't high enough already.

Let's just cut through the Obamacare hysteria. This debate is about Insurance. That’s all it is really about. Do you have a basic concept of how insurance works? Do you have health insurance that you pay into? Do you have auto or homeowner’s insurance? I’ve got news for you, you’re already paying for other peoples bad health, bad choices, bad driving or just bad luck. With healthcare, Obama Care does not change that….it was always about insurance. The only difference is that it widens the pool of those covered. And yes, there is a cost and we will have to carry some of them, but no matter how you cut it, we, as a society pay for sick people, one way or another. Having a country a sick people will bankrupt us a lot faster than Obama care will, both morally and financially. Willard Mitt Romney said, several years ago before he flipped on the issue, that to allow people to not have insurance, and relying on the ER to treat uninsured people is unacceptable because they are not taking responsibility, that THAT is socialism. Lastly, your reference to “my c*******t agenda” is the height of stupidity. }

Again, please put down your cloward/piven manual and pick up an economics book. Your not going to fix this issue by making more americans pay for other people's insurance. They still do not have jobs and the people that do like me, have less income to spend to help the economy grow. And all the while, the government is tightening it's grasp on the people that it now controls through healthcare...this is the same way in a c*******t state...now do you get it....the height of stupidity is you not understand this point and the BIG PICTURE.

[Liberty Quot]This statement is so ignorant, I'm not sure where to start...how about California and Texas? Which one do you think is doing better...I told you the answer in one of my other posts but just in case you forgot...it's Texas. Now do you know why? Come on you can do it....lower taxes! Now please explain to me how raising everyone's taxes, not just the rich, is going to solve anything but put us further into recession? I'll take Reagan or Bush any day over a fraudulent president who spent two million dollars sealing his records. What is he hiding? We all know what he is hiding...he is an imposter because it's a well known fact that politicians always hide good news about themselves....LOL!

{ You are brain washed! You might want to drop the talking points and start thinking. My the Gods and Goddesses bless you. mother earth and all of the creatures upon her, great and small}

William Logan wrote:

"iuImmigration should have one law for i******s. No right to steal one americans v**e . they should not be allow to v**e for 20 years if allow to stay. No party republicans or democrats should able buy their right to become a citizen . In some states where many i******s are living they are now trying to change our constitution to follow sharia law . they are not interested in becoming americans but changing the the true american way . destroying america our country from within . Our present and past representative have cause this problem by not protecting and imforcing our laws . they are america terroist parties ,parties first .their real job last ."

Liberty: That seems pretty h**eful to me, but maybe we have a different definition of h**eful.

OR:

Do you think that this is the kind of stuff, that will encurage new Republican v**ers?

For one simple reason.

The people that are comming here, are looking for a better life for their famlies.

Just like your fore-parents did.

The difference was then, they could just sign a paper and become a citizen, and v**e.

You Extremeist Republicans know your message is so H**EFUL, that they would never v**e for you, and that makes you fearful.

Thus you oppose any and all reform.

To bad some of your people weren't turned away.

We would have a better country now.

Why dont you just go away Chardo
you are simply a talking liberal head .Nothing can ever be proven to a liberal even if it is crystal clear ..You guys treat Obama as if he is actually a president .He is not a president he is here to do one thing and one thing only..Destroy America..He has been around the globe apologizing for our defense of our country ,is that what a president does Chardo..Does a president stand on the podium everyday and lie about one issue or another..Does a president give arms to the muslim brotherhood knowing that they may be used against Israel..Does a president allow a command post in libya to be overrun with terrorists when he knew in advance that they needed help.Does a president involve himself in state governmental issues such as the trayvon martin case..Does a president hop on air force one and fly off to a fund raiser and have a grand old time while the smoke was still clearing in B******i..Does a president purposely lie about a terrorist attack to try and assure ree******n. Does a president associate himself with people like Jeremiah Wright who damned America..Chardo you are not a centrist you are a scripted liberal who cannot see beyond his hands...How about the second amendment or any other amendment for that matter if it were up to Obama we would not have a constitution..So you see Chardo you are clearly not a centrist..Although i may agree that the repubs have their own issues ,they do believe in the constitution and they do believe in free market and most importantly they believe in our F**G.

You're a regular ideologue liberal retired social worker that can't deductively reason to solutions to problems as reasonably suggested by true facts. So when you get called out on the facts, you either falsely allege facts, or you resort to ad hominem attacks. Well if that is how you want to partake of reasoned discourse, get use to the technique you little twerp, as it will be coming back at you. Moreover, I'm not angry, I'm just looking forward to the fun of it. I will take great pleasure in scalding your sorry arse. Take your best shot.

Good day Sir,
Let me begin by pointing out that I did not say that this country is a direct democracy. I said “representative” democracy” in that we elect representatives that go to congress and, hopefully, do what’s best for all of the people. As such the sovereignty of the people-the hallmark of a republic- is exercised through those representatives. I understand that democracy is “mob rule and a tyranny of the majority. If there is anything that I agree with conservatives on- and there isn't much- it’s that.

Our Constitutional Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority Source: http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/repvsdem.htm

Having said that, let us turn to your statement decrying the passage of Obama care…..that it was “rammed down our throats “ Now I’m not going to go into the merits of the law here-that’s for another discussion. For now I will just say that yes., it may be true that a majority of the people would speak against it, although I suspect that is largely due to the fear and misinformation that’s been spread about it. However, it’s also true that when asked about individual provisions of the law, such as not penalizing folks for preexisting conditions, and banning caps on benefits, most people are in favor of it.

These are definitely some the better provisions of the bill but the mass majority of it is not going to solve a lot of the issues with health care in the US in fact, it will make it worse and more intrusive into your personal privacy which violates the Constitution. Regardless, the way this law was passed was disgraceful and I for one cannot accept it due to this fact. Our own representatives who work for us, the people, did not even read the bill and still passed it into law based on intimidation and party lines...this sir, no matter what party you belong to, should offend you to your American core....it is wrong!

But for now, let’s just focus on your contention that most people are against it, and look at that in relation to the issue of a democracy vs. republic form of government. In a democracy, where the majority are opposed to something, that majority would, or should rule and you would be right to rail against congress having flouted the will of the people. However, in a republic, as stated above, the few –who in this case may stand to benefit-are to be protected from the majority.

I would disagree with you here. Your talking about bringing down the majority of hard working Americans to pay for people who cannot afford healthcare for a multitude of reasons (i.e. illegal status in the country, parasites to society or people who smoked or drank themselves to death) and now they want me to pay for their healthcare...WRONG! Please stop looking to blame or tax everyone else to push your c*******t agenda. Please remember that the only things that you have the right to is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Do you understand what personal accountability is? If I drink, smoke or eat myself into diabetes, I do not expect everyone else to pay for my mistakes...period. This is the problem with liberals, it's always someone's else's fault or responsibility. Please don't try and tell me that I don't have a heart...I do but I also have a logical side that understands that you cannot offer this to everyone without bankrupting the whole country and bringing everyone else's health care back to the dark ages. You're right, there is a lot of misinformation going around, and you need to read more into the destructive nature of this bill sir.

Another issue where conservatives like to invoke “democracy” in concerning marriage e******y, when they are eager to put it to referendum when they think that they will get the result that they want. Hypocrisy at its most blatant. So my friend , if we are to reject the concept of democracy, we must be consistent and not decide to embrace it when convenient . You can’t have it both ways.

Regarding taxes and spending, if you advocating going back to the failed policies of Reagan and the Bushes you advocating a recipe for disaster. With wealth and income being concentrated in the top 1% more and more, we will have neither a democracy or a republic…we will have a plutocracy….government for the rich and by the rich.

This statement is so ignorant, I'm not sure where to start...how about California and Texas? Which one do you think is doing better...I told you the answer in one of my other posts but just in case you forgot...it's Texas. Now do you know why? Come on you can do it....lower taxes! Now please explain to me how raising everyone's taxes, not just the rich, is going to solve anything but put us further into recession? I'll take Reagan or Bush any day over a fraudulent president who spent two million dollars sealing his records. What is he hiding? We all know what he is hiding...he is an imposter because it's a well known fact that politicians always hide good news about themselves....LOL!

On last thing. You might want to drop the inane claptrap such as “brainless minions following a r****t t*****r c*******t demagogue who doesn't know his head from his ass”. It makes you sound stupid, if you don’t mind my being blunt. It does nothing for your credibility, except among the head banging extremists, and adds nothing to the quality of the discussion.