Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

The only "Doctrinal application," is your own, Oleg,

Every new Christian convert has received the indwelling Holy Spirit, and when in possession of the Holy Bible, spiritually lacks nothing that God cannot handle.

...for of him, Jesus said:

John 14:16-17
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

1st John 2:27
"But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ."

Addendum:

When I first read the Bible through in its entirety, after conversion, I assure you, plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand was never brought to mind.

How condescending of you.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

Who says the Bible is not truthful anywhere?
To understand any short "quote", and what the point is; get the context.
Who is speaking to whom, and about whom.
Then there is always the King James Version to deal with, and those applying it.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

"How condescending of you."
Again another chuckle, thanks.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14 -KJV

We see from the above a preacher has great responsibility to teach the truth. I have no doubt we could also include teachers with same responsibilities.

1. When Paul says he is the first to reveal the Mystery of the Rapture of the Church, but then man says Jesus revealed the Rapture of the Church in John 14 while in the flesh; is not man saying Paul was incorrect?

2. When man says Matt 24:27 is the Rapture of the Church then folks read the passage just above (Matt:24:21)
which speaks of Great Tribulation, are not we throwing fuel on the fire of the Rapture of the Church timing argument?

3. Do you believe we have God's word today in English?

Please try to stay on topic.🙏

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Do you believe we, today, have the word of God in English?

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Stuck on go, oleg? I do not do circular.

This is your third return to your eternal mystery, which I found not mysterious at all.

What Jesus said does not conflict with the words recorded by Paul because they are from the same source, i.e., also the words of Jesus Christ, taken from Jesus by the Holy Spirit, and given by spiritual inspiration to Paul.

Jesus said: "He will glorify and honor Me, because He (the Holy Spirit) will take from what is Mine and will disclose it to you." (John 16:14)

Jesus ministered to the Jewish people, in Aramaic and Hebrew; He assigned Paul to minister to the Gentiles, during which he spoke Greek, though knowing some Latin also, being a citizen of Rome, - there is no conflict, other than in your mind.

However, within my home library, I have these three books, any one of which might solve your dilemma, all still in print, I believe, if you'd care to avail yourself of one through an online outlet:

I rarely refer to them now, having resolved all the issues of seeming contradictions with which you appear to be contending, thirty or forty years ago.

Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, Gleason L. Archer

Hard Sayings of the Bible, Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., F. F. Bruce

The Big Book of Bible Difficulties, Norman L. Geisler, Thomas Howe

...as for the Rapture of the Church "timing" argument"?

Are you unaware that is not knowable?

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." (Matthew 24:36)

We may theorize on which event(s) precede which other event(s), i.e., programming, scheduling, even, but not the timing, as in clockwise.

Daily, because a new believer in Christ either read the gospel, or heard the preaching of God's Word, a check is being placed by their already recorded name in God's Book of Life.

Evangelists are indeed a precious lot.

Jesus, the One who spoke with supreme authority, said in Matthew 24:35, and I am paraphrasing (so no quotes are required), Heaven and earth will pass away, but my Word will never do so.

We are even given a brief glimpse of the scientific workings of the nuclear holocaust in which heaven and earth will pass away in 2nd Peter 3:10:

"But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare."

James 3:1 does indeed admonish all those who believe themselves called to teach others within their fellowship in the Body of Christ to walk softly:

"Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

NOT only is God's Word in ENGLISH; According to Ethnologue, there are currently 7,099 living languages in the world, and at least one portion of Scripture has been translated for 3,312 of these languages.
The New Testament is available in 1,521 languages, with portions in 1,121. The complete Bible has been translated into 670 languages.*

*Statistics from Oct. 2017, Wycliffe Bible Translators Global Alliance,

Today, as they contemplate the people around the world every day who are perishing without receiving the Good News of the gospel, the Wycliffe Bible Translators are working faster than ever to reach those remaining languages ASAP.

If you desire additional information, or to assist them:

https://www.wycliffe.org/about

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Well I do tend to circle back on circular reasoning.
Basically you said Matt 24 was spoken by Jesus, the mystery of the Rapture of the Church came from Jesus, and the description of a mystery came from Jesus. No argument from me. Even though they may have been spoken or written in different languages, I totally agree all the inspired words of the Bible came from the Word of God.
The problem is found in your conclusion. Your circular reasoning is that since all the teaching originated from the same source, they must mean the same.
However your premise is flawed simply because Jesus spoke on many different topics.
In one instance in the OT He told them an eye for an eye, then when speaking in Matthew to Jews about the coming Trib and Millennium Reign He told them to turn the other check, and finally through Paul He tells us if we can't handle something ourselves to turn it over to the authorities.

Again, our disagreement is not in who spoke, but in what He said.

Ok, moving on. You've plowed a lot of ground and it may take a while to get it all planted, sorry.
When I mentioned the "timing" of the Rapture of the Church, I did not mean when in time it will take place; I was referring to the thing you brought up earlier about the debate of pre-Trib vs mid-Trib.
You said you did not care for the debate, but I simply pointed out that you are fueling the flames of that debate when you confound the words of the Word in the gospels with the words of the Word given to us through Paul.

Now in reference to your questioning my awareness of the timing of the Rapture of the Church.
I am aware it says no man can know the day or the hour; however I am unaware of any place saying man cannot know the year or the month.
I'm also aware that the context of Matt 24:36 is the Tribulation, therefore the reference is to the Second Coming.
I'm also aware of the disciples in Acts 1:11 being told Jesus will return in like manner.
I'm also aware Hosea tells the Jews He will return in 2 days at 6:2.
I'm also aware the setting of Acts 1 was some 40 days after the cross.
I'm also aware many place the cross at 30 AD.
I'm also aware 1 day to the Lord is like 1000 yrs and 1000 yrs like a day.
I'm also aware God created in 6 days with the birth of Jesus being some 4,000 yrs after creation leaving but another 2,000 until the 7th day of rest.
I'm also aware 2,000 plus 30 is the yr 2,030.
I'm also aware those on earth during the Trib will have the ability to know when it begins and therefore know when it will end even if they don't know the day or hour.
I'm also aware the Rapture of the Church is eminent; however I do feel it very close.
I'm also aware of condescension.

I would say I'm pleased you do believe we have God's inspired word in English. Some do but many don't believe this.

For the life of me I cannot understand why some would call a book a Bible when that book teaches salvation through water baptism at Acts 8:36-38 or disagrees with itself at Num 14:30 and Heb 3:16 as does the NIV.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

The ten (10) tribes were never "lost" to God.

Yeshua's mission was not to literally seek out geographically lost people to recover their identity, He came to seek those who were spiritually lost.

Jesus criticized the false religious leaders because they had forsaken the inspired scriptures from God, for their own wearisome man made rules, traditions and regulations.

God's promises do not fail.

Jeremiah 30:18-20 says that God will destroy the nations to which Israel and Judah were scattered.

After He corrected Israel and Judah in measure, as verse 11 says, He is returning all of His people back to their promised land to give them His rest and peace.

The Bible prophesied the Jewish diaspora.

Hosea 3:4-5 - "For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days."

Hosea 6:1 - "Come, let us return to the LORD. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds."

The 1st century Historian, Josephus records: "the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude and not to be estimated in numbers."
In Jesus's time the location of Israel was known.

Acts 2 shows they traveled to Jerusalem 3 times a year for feast days. James 1:1 Says "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

The 12 tribes were scattered but still known. The 2 sticks of Judah and Ephraim have already been made one through the cross, fulfilling Ezekiel 37.

While Jerusalem and the temple were still there following the Babylonian captivity, the tribes were able to travel to the temple and follow the law.

They retained their identity at that time, as is made clear in Acts chapter 2 and chapter 8, and also in the epistles of James and Peter.

After 70 A.D., when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed, the tribes of the Jewish Diaspora theoretically assimilated into the nations, but the Jewish people always retained their individual Jewish identity and their observances of the Jewish Festivals and Feast days, their avoidance of pork and other traditionally unclean food and their practices of cleanliness, for instance, the mikvah - ritual purification bath taken by observant Jews on specific occasions, as Archaeologists have evidenced throughout the twenty (20) centuries of the Diaspora, by the building, room, or fixture in which this bath took place.

Again, Jesus' mission was not to literally find "misplaced" people, as illustrated in the parable of the 1 lost sheep out of 99 like the prodigal son, of whom the father said, "he was lost but now he's found."

Note the following New Testament passages in which the 12 tribes appeared in the then present, and in the then future, and possibly future to us:

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Luke 22:30 "That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Acts 26:7 "Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews."

James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

Revelation 21:12 "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel."

Psalm 107:2-3 "Let the redeemed of the LORD say this -- those he redeemed from the hand of the foe, those he gathered from the lands, from east and west, from north and south.



[quote=eagleye13]

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Oleg, we have many English translations of God's Word, derived from copies of the inspired original autographs, NOT just the King James.

Christ suffered, died, and was resurrected 2,000 years ago to redeem all believers, NOT to leave His children's fate to 'KJV Only' advocates.

Why I Do Not Think the King James Bible Is the Best Translation Available Today
By Daniel B. Wallace, PhD, Professor of New Testament and Greek

"All evangelical Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant, inspired, and our final authority for faith and life, however, nowhere does the Bible tell us that only one translation of it is the correct one, or that the King James Bible is the best or only ‘holy’ Bible. There is no verse telling us precisely how God will preserve his word, so no scriptural warrant says the King James has exclusive rights to that throne. The arguments must proceed on other bases.

2nd, the Greek text standing behind the King James Bible is demonstrably inferior in places. Erasmus, the Roman Catholic priest and humanist who edited the KJV text rushed to get it to press ASAP because (a) no edition of the Greek New Testament had been published, and (b) he was competing with Cardinal Ximenes and associates to publish the 1st edition of the Greek NT.

Consequently, his edition has been called the most poorly edited volume in all of literature! It is filled with hundreds of typographical errors which Erasmus would acknowledge. Two places deserve special mention. In Revelation's last six chapters, Erasmus had no Greek manuscript (=MS) (he only used half a dozen, very late MSS for the whole New Testament any way). He was forced to ‘back-translate’ the Latin into Greek and in doing so, created seventeen variants which have never been found in any other Greek MS of Revelation!

He guessed at what the Greek might have been. Secondly, for 1st John 5:7-8, Erasmus followed the majority of MSS in reading “there are three witnesses in heaven, the Spirit and the water and the blood.” However, there was an uproar in some Roman Catholic circles because his text did not read “there are three witnesses in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.” Erasmus said he did not put that in the text because he found no Greek MSS with that reading. This implicit challenge—viz., if he found such a reading in a Greek MS, he would put it in his text—was noticed. In 1520, a scribe at Oxford named Roy made such a Greek MS (codex 61, now in Dublin). Erasmus’ third edition used this second reading - a Greek MS ‘made to order’ to meet his challenge!

To this date, only a handful of Greek MSS have been discovered with that Trinitarian formula in 1st John 5:7-8, and none of them earlier than the sixteenth century.

That is a very important point because it illustrates something quite significant about the textual tradition behind the King James. Most textual critics today fully embrace the doctrine of the Trinity (and, of course, all evangelical textual critics do). Most would like to see the Trinity explicitly taught in 1st John 5:7-8, but must reject this reading as an invention of an overly zealous scribe.

It is problematic that the King James Bible is filled with readings created by overly zealous scribes! Very few distinctive King James readings are ancient, and most textual critics embrace the reasonable proposition that the most ancient MSS are most reliable because they stand closest to the date of the original autographs (manuscripts).

The story of the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53-8:11) is a favorite about the grace of our savior, Jesus Christ. That Jesus is called God in 1st Timothy 3:16 affirms our view of Him. Cf. also John 3:13; 1 John 5:7-8, etc. The textual evidence, however, shows both that scribes had a strong tendency to add, rather than subtract, and most of these additions are found in the newest dated MSS, rather than the more ancient. IOW, those scholars who have excised many favorite passages from the New Testament have done so because such passages are NOT found in the best preserved, and more ancient MSS.

This does not mean that doctrines contained in those verses have been jeopardized, as belief in the deity of Christ, does not live or die with 1st Timothy 3:16. It has been repeatedly affirmed that no doctrine of Scripture has been affected by these textual differences. Because that is true, the ‘King James only’ advocates are crying wolf where none exists, rather than focusing on advancing the gospel.

3rd, the King James Bible has undergone three revisions since its inception in 1611, incorporating more than 100,000 changes. Which King James Bible is inspired?

4th, 300 words found in the KJV no longer have their same meaning—e.g., “Suffer little children…to come unto me” (Matthew 19:14). “Study to shew thyself approved unto God” (2nd Timothy 2:15). Can a Bible be the best translation when it still uses language no longer clearly understood, but has at times been perverted and twisted? 3

5th, the KJV includes one very definite error in translation, which even KJV advocates admit. In Matthew 23:24 the KJV has ‘strain at a gnat and swallow a camel,’ but the Greek has ‘strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.’ This illustrates that no translation is infallible and that scribal corruptions can and do take place - even in a volume worked over by the 50 different scholars of the original KJV committee. 4

6th, when the KJV was first published, it was heavily resisted for being too easy to understand! People revere it today in the pride of believing themselves more spiritual for understanding something they know many, especially the young cannot.

Often 1st Corinthians 2:13-16 is quoted in reference to the KJV (to the effect that ‘you would understand it if you were more spiritual’). Such a use of that text, however, is a gross distortion of the Scriptures. The words in the New Testament, the grammar, the style, was written in the koine (vulgar or common) Greek, the common language of the ordinary people of the first century.

We do God a great disservice when we make the gospel more difficult to understand than He intended it. The reason unspiritual people do not understand the scriptures is because they have a volitional problem, not an intellectual problem (cf. 1st Corinthians 2:14 where ‘receive,’ ‘welcome’ shows clearly that the thing which blocks understanding is the sinful will of man).

7th, those who advocate that the KJV has exclusive rights to being called the Holy Bible are always, curiously, English-speaking people (normally isolated Americans). Yet, Martin Luther’s fine translation of the Bible into German predated the KJV by almost 100 years. Are we so arrogant to say that God has spoken only in English? Where there are substantial discrepancies between Luther’s Bible and the KJV (as in 1st John 5:7-8), are we going to say that God has inspired both? Is He the author of lies? Our faith does not rest in a singular tradition, nor is it provincial.

Vibrant, Biblical Christianity must never unite itself with regionalism/localism. Otherwise, missionary endeavor, among other things, would die. Christianity is a missionary religion, so it had to use the language that everyone knew in the cities in the first century, the koine (vulgar, or common) Greek. Not much later, as Christianity expanded farther, scribes translated the Greek New Testament into other languages. That continues to this day.

8th, again, to an earlier point: Most evangelicals—who embrace all the cardinal doctrines of the faith—prefer a different translation and textual basis than that found in the KJV. Even the editors of the New Scofield Reference Bible (which is based on the KJV) prefer a different text/translation, as there 3rd edition is available in the NASV!

Finally, the modern translations ‘omit’ certain words and verses (or conversely, the King James Version ADDS to the Word of God), depending on one's viewpoint. The most recent edition of a Greek New Testament based on the majority of MSS, rather than the most ancient ones, thus standing firmly behind the King James tradition, when compared to the standard Greek New Testament used in most modern translations, removes over six hundred and fifty words or phrases! It is, therefore, not proper to suggest that only modern translations omit; the Greek text BEHIND the KJV also omits!

The question is not whether modern translations have deleted portions of the Word of God, but whether either the KJV or modern translations have ALTERED the Word of God. The KJV has far more drastically altered the scriptures than have modern translations. Nevertheless, to repeat: most textual critics for the past two hundred and fifty years say that no doctrine is affected by these changes. One can be saved reading the KJV and one can be saved reading the NIV, NASB, ESV, CSB, etc.

All have a tendency to make mountains out of molehills and to then erect fortresses in those ‘mountains.’ It is common to cling to familiar things from emotion, rather than true piety, but to do so is a great disservice to a spiritually lost and dying world that is desperately in need of a clear, strong voice proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Soli Deo gloria!

Addendum

One further point is necessary. With the publication of several different books slanderously vilifying modern translations, the NIV, NAS, etc., asserting that they were borne out of conspiratorial motives, a necessary word about this concocted theory. Many of these critical books are written by people with little or no knowledge of Greek or Hebrew, and, further, they greatly distort the factual truth. Those who have read books on textual criticism for over a quarter century, have never seen such illogical, out-of-context quotations, and downright deceptions about the situation as in these recent books.

2nd, although it is often asserted that heretics produced some of the New Testament MSS now in our possession, there is only one group of MSS known to be produced by heretics: certain Byzantine MSS of the book of Revelation. This is significant because the Byzantine text stands behind the KJV! These MSS formed part of a mystery cult textbook used by various early cults. But KJV advocates constantly make the charge that the earliest MSS (the Alexandrian MSS) were produced by heretics. The sole basis they have for this charge is that certain readings in these MSS are disagreeable to them!

3rd, when one examines the variations between the Greek text behind the KJV (the Textus Receptus) and the Greek text behind modern translations, it is discovered that the vast majority of variations are so trivial as to not even be translatable (the most common is the moveable nu, which is akin to the difference between ‘who’ and ‘whom’!).

4th, when the number of variations found in the various MSS are compared with the actual variations between the Textus Receptus and the best Greek witnesses, these two are remarkably similar. There are over 400,000 textual variants among NT MSS. But the differences between the Textus Receptus and texts based on the best Greek witnesses number about 5000—and most are untranslatable differences! IOW, over 98% of the time, the Textus Receptus and the standard critical editions agree.

Those who vilify modern translations and the Greek texts behind them have never investigated the data. Their appeals are on emotion, not evidence, and they do an injustice to historic Christianity as well as to the men who stood behind the King James Bible. These scholars, who admitted that their work was provisional and not final (as seen by their preface and 8000+ marginal notes indicating alternate renderings), would wholeheartedly welcome the great finds in MSS that have occurred in the past one hundred and fifty years."

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

"One further point is necessary. With the publication of several different books slanderously vilifying modern translations, the NIV, NAS, etc., asserting that they were borne out of conspiratorial motives, a necessary word about this concocted theory.
*****Many of these critical books are written by people with little or no knowledge of Greek or Hebrew, and, further, they greatly distort the factual truth. **************
Those who have read books on textual criticism for over a quarter century, have never seen such illogical, out-of-context quotations, and downright deceptions about the situation as in these recent books."

https://www.orthodoxchurch.nl/2019/12/announcement-late-bp-pastor-leroy-crouch-teachings-going-online/

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Psalm 12:7 - KJV

Ok, I can see that neither you and eagleye13 feel the above promise of God is yet fulfilled.
Inspiration without preservation is a waste much like building a bridge with no following maintenance is a folly.
I was a bit disappointed that neither attempted explanation of the Heb 3:16 reference.

Another doctrinally ripe passage you might also consider:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 - KJV

Now please, ok you do feel we have the Word physically in English but you don't believe it is the King James. Since I do so wish to study the physical Word please tell me which one it is. Since you seem to prefer the NIV, do you believe it is the preserved physical Word, or perhaps God has not finished that job as yet?

Ok back to topic. Do you have any scriptural proof that your chosen passages from Matt 24 and John 14 are speaking of the pre-Trib Rapture of the Church and not casting on the truthfulness of Paul when Paul said he was the first to reveal this as a mystery?
If not, I would suggest you remove those references from dialogue concerning said Rapture because it only adds fuel to the timing debate of said Rature.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

I'll also give you opportunity to inform me and the readers which version of today you feel is the physical Word of God today? Or do you also feel God has not as yet had time to preserve it?

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Something I will never understand: folks staking their hope of eternal life on an imaginary book they can't even hold in their hand.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

Not sure where you are coming from.
Jesus was the Word in the flesh.
He will be coming back to rule His kingdom here on Earth.
I hope you and others will be ready for that.

Celina Loc: New York Springfield Gardens

With God all things are possible

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

It's very simple. We have many choices today of different version of God's word. They truly are different when we actually read them. If one picks one version and only reads it, the differences aren't recognized, so a person needs to compare them which is easy to do with an online Bible like Bible Gateway.

An example is Gal 5:12 where you will find the reading ranging from cutting someone off from fellowship with the congregation to complete emasculation.
Do you really believe Paul would wish the latter on his debate opponents?
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Galatians 5:12 - NIV
Zemirah has eloquently showed every version is written by man and to their credit none of those men claim inspiration, neither did Moses or any other original scribe of God's word but God did claim inspiration.

Now it is simply up to us to compare. We either have the inspired word in English or not. If not one wonders when God will "get around to it", but if we do have the inspired word, which one is it?
I have studied and made my choice, but I'm not so conceded to think I could not be wrong.
You and Zemirah seem to have made a different choice, considering I might be wrong in my choice I'm simply asking for your reasons of your choice.

Many will say we have God's word today in the inspired "originals", to which I ask which one? There as many different "copies" of the originals out there as versions today. Scholars have no problem transferring inspiration to these copies from their truly original writings, but all of a sudden the scholars seem to feel inspiration stopped there?
Another issue is language. We all would agree God instructed us to read and study His word. Are we to suppose God would wish each and every convert must learn Hebrew an Greek?
Most preachers say: "no, you don't need to learn them, I went to school to learn them and now I will translate and tell you ordinary folks what to believe."
To which I would reply "No! I reject the need of a priest to lord over me in my communication with the Lord."

The bottom line is authority. Is our authority God or scholarship?

Since you both seem to be students of the Bible I simply ask which version in English is the one you feel God wants us to read and study.