eagleye13 Loc: Fl

Is The Lord Making Something We Don't Expect???

A while back a friend shared a story of a visiting pastor who attended a men's breakfast in the middle of a rural farming area of the country. The group had asked an older farmer, decked out in bib overalls, to say grace for the morning breakfast...


"God, I hate buttermilk", the farmer began...

The visiting pastor opened one eye to glance at the farmer and wonder where this was going...

The farmer loudly proclaimed, "God, I hate lard."...

Now the pastor was growing concerned...

Without missing a beat, the farmer continued, "And God, you know I don't much care for raw white flour."...

The pastor once again opened an eye to glance around the room and saw that he wasn't the only one to feel uncomfortable...

Then the farmer added, "But God, when you mix them all together and bake them, I do love warm fresh biscuits...

So, God, when things come up that we don't like, when life gets hard, when we don't understand what you're saying to us, help us to just relax and wait until you are done mixing...


It will probably be even better than biscuits... Amen.”


Within that prayer there is great wisdom for all when it comes to complicated situations like we are experiencing in the world today...

Stay strong, dear friends, because God is mixing several things that we don't really care for, but something even better is going to come...

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

I certainly agree something the world does not expect might happen at anytime.
Some term it as the rapture (catching out) of the Church.
When this happens, I fully expect it to make headline news around the world; however I doubt the world will know the true nature of the event.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

A heads up, Olegig.
There is no "flyaway"
The anti-Christ has to come first, and many Biblically unschooled will be fooled. That is prophesy.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

I certainly don’t mind being disagreed with, but why the harsh words?

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Do you feel when God said the Church, the Bride of Christ will escape the wrath of God, it is prophesy that those in Christ will go through the times of Jacob’s troubles?

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

What harsh words, olegig.
Just a concerned warning to those believing the fly away doctrine.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Perhaps some scriptural proof?

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

Do you have scriptural proof of the fly away doctrine, the rapture, olegig?
As I recall it started by a woman in the late 1800's.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." – 1st Thessalonians 4:17

Some of us will indeed "flyaway."

God always removes His people from harm when He is preparing to supernaturally punish the unbelieving heathen world. Born-again believers will escape God’s wrath.

The Rapture is real and is foreshadowed throughout Scripture. Only rightly divided Scripture from the Bible can determine if a specific belief is accurate or in error.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." (2nd Peter 2:4-9)

The Rapture is an end times event where Jesus Christ returns for His Church. According to the Bible, the event will be instantaneous, in the “twinkling of an eye”. While Scripture nowhere encourages us to try to determine the date of Jesus’ return, we are told to keep watch because we don’t know what day our Lord will come (Matthew 24:42).

While the word “Rapture” does not appear in the Bible, the event is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-44. At the time of the Rapture, believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. In short, the Rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The Rapture is typically associated with events of the Second Coming of Christ, when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. While the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are similar, they are separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-time events. However, it is important as believers that we recognize the differences.

The Rapture is the coming of Jesus in secret, i.e., a "secret Rapture" – a carrying away of the saved to heaven – at the beginning of a seven-year period of tribulation, during which the antichrist will appear.

The Second Coming occurs at the close of the time of tribulation when Jesus will return to Earth in triumph and glory. At the Rapture, the Lord will descent bodily in the air for his saints, both for the dead and for the living (1st Thessalonians 4:16-17) which will be seven years prior to His second coming.

In the Rapture, the Lord comes for His church; whereas, at the end of the tribulation period, in His Second Coming, He comes back with His church.

At His Second Coming event “every eye shall see Him” - although at the Rapture he came “as a thief” and only believers saw Him.

The early church leaders who had learned directly from those who had been closest to The Lord Jesus Christ believed In The Rapture, the supernatural removal of all Bible-believing Christians from Earth to enter Heaven, and interpreted Scripture to put the timing of the Rapture before the Great Tribulation.

The ancient writings are clear – the belief in the Rapture has existed since the days of the Apostles.

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD), bishop of the church in Lyons, France, was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is best known for his five-volume treatise, "Against Heresies" in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice on how to share the Gospel with those who were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged that the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 signifies the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just.

On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”
(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”
(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of "harpazo," the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible, describing the Rapture in 1st Thessalonians 4.

He then quotes Matthew 24:21 where The Lord Jesus Christ says: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

And it is during this time that those who convert to Christianity during the final years will receive the incorruptible crown mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1st Corinthians 9:25. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.

Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian, Bishop of the church in Carthage, guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.

In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?

Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

Again we see use of language commonly found in reference to the Rapture as Cyprian describes the judgments of the end times as “imminent.” And he makes his belief on the timing of the Rapture when he wrote that Christians will have an “early departure” and be “delivered” from the devastating global judgments that come during the Day of The Lord.
In line with the Apostle Paul who wrote that “God has not appointed us to wrath, but salvation.”

Cyprian expressed joy and encourages the believing reader to rejoice that the Church will be “taken away” before the disastrous Great Tribulation. Just as The Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 used the same language of one “taken away” and the other “left.” Additionally Cyprian references the mansions to which The Lord Jesus Christ promises to come back and take His believers, in John 14.

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” – John 14:1-3.

In both the Matthew 24 passages (“one taken, the other left”) and in John 14 (“..receive you unto myself..”) the Greek work paralambanō is used for taken and receive. The meaning of that word is “join to one’s self” indicating that Jesus is coming to fully unify with His church – which takes place at the Rapture. Clearly Cyprian believed and taught that the Rapture takes place before the Great Tribulation.

Ephraim the Syrian (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 AD and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a "saint" in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. In the book Pseudo Ephraim, one of his still existing works, the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?

Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”

Ephraim very clearly states the saints and elect of God, all born again believers in The Lord Jesus Christ, will be “taken to the Lord” before the Great Tribulation. Ephraim also identifies the Old Testament “Day of The Lord” and the end times Great Tribulation as the same event. Ephraim quotes Amos 5:18 which says: “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! To what end is it for you? The day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.”

The point he makes is that a Christian should know the Day of The Lord is coming. In the first part of the passage Ephraim notes that:
“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. ... And not only that but that true Christians will be taken away before it starts."

These are the same end times signs Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 24:

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." – Matthew 24:3-8.

Jesus describes these events as “the beginning of sorrows.” He also says that when these things come to pass “the end is not yet.”

Ephraim warns the reader not to be consumed with the cares of the world because the world in its current form, is coming to an end. As the Second Advent or Coming of The Lord Jesus Christ grows near, believers are to look to Heaven and set their hearts on pleasing God. It is clear that Ephraim distinguishes the Second Coming of Christ from the Rapture, placing the Rapture before the Great Tribulation to come.

It’s important that we pay attention to the Bible’s prophetic passages and study God’s plan for the future. Though we won’t know the date, time or hour of the Rapture and Jesus’ Second Coming, when we study and understand the Rapture, we become better prepared for what is to come.

We can be aware of all that is going on around us so that we are living the life God intended for us in Christ, and in the strength that He provides.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Well quite frankly I cannot speak of a woman in the 1880's because I was not around during that time.
I can only speak of what is found in the Book, however Zemirah has covered those references so no point in rehashing the same thing.
But I would like to revisit a statement you made.
You indicated it is prophecied that the Church will go through the Trib and suffer the wrath of God, however the Bible says the following:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:9 - KJV

So I ask again where is it prophecied that God will do what He said He would not do?

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

First let me compliment you on such an exhaustive explanation of things concerning the Rapture of the Church.
The time spent in researching the historical proof text was no doubt countless hours. Seems many schooled scholars today are limited to only what their contemporaries have voiced.

I would like to zero in on but a small part of your fine treaties as represented by the condensed above.
For many years the use of the Matthew and John passages (I will call them the gospel passages) in reference to the Rapture of the Church troubled me.
As we see:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 1 Corinthians 2:7 - KJV

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51 KJV

When Paul first revealed the Rapture of the Church at 1 Corinthians, he termed it a mystery; therefore it was something hidden in God, but never before revealed to man.
If Paul spoke truth, which I believed he did, then the words of Jesus in the gospel passages could not have been referring to the Rapture of the Church or else Paul could not term the doctrine a mystery.

In my humble opinion Jesus' teachings in the gospel passages do refer to a catching out, but not of the Church.
I feel Jesus was telling of a catching out of Tribulation Saints who had followed God's instructions for those on earth during the Tribulation.
IMO these are to be caught up to be guest at the wedding of Matt 22 and referenced at Rev 7:14.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

olegig; If you want to believe in "the rapture", so be it.
On death of the body, the spirit leaves it.
IMO; Humans have a soul, and it lands somewhere at death.
The unsaved just as in sleep. No eternal anguish.

Although for the truly wicked; they may not get off so easily.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Everyone has a theology, some are personal theologies and some private.
A personal theology is malleable, ever changing and adjusting to new scriptural revelation. When a scripture comes along which disagrees with one's personal theology, the theology is adjusted.
Problems arise when one has a private theology. It becomes set in stone, unchangeable no matter what a scripture might teach. Private theologians lean toward rewriting the word rather than adjusting to it.
A private theology is seldom supported with scripture.

I don't know from which school or schooled teacher you got your ideas, but I think you would have a problem Biblically proving the unsaved avoid hell.
Hell is God's judgement for evil. If there is no punishment for evil, then there is no need for good.
If no darkness, no need for light.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20 - KJV

Your right that everyone is perfectly free to believe whatever they please, but when someone claiming to be a Christian disregards the Word by disagreeing with the word of God; others tend to question their claim.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

Having good sources for Bible study is important.
Sound scholarship and a good heart.
FYI;
Shepherd's chapel is one

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

I'd closely check that shepherd's chapel guy against scripture it I were you.
Was he the one who taught you the unbeliever lost person does not go to hell?