eagleye13 Loc: Fl

No lesson today.
But There is no eternal fire (Hell) where the unsaved go.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

I understand now your difficulty in supplying scriptural support of your statements.
One first must own a Bible and read it before one can provide scriptural support.
Don't know what man you follow, but hell is plainly described by the God of the Bible.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

The Rapture is not something that ever required study at great depth... even forty years ago.

I believe what the Bible so clearly teaches about the Rapture, and that the Rapture can be clearly defended. It is a given, or should be, as anyone would have to literally hide from the Bible text (which they do through allegory) to deny the truth of the Rapture.

The finer points, much of the excruciating detail I have seen debated is like arguing over the color of the church carpeting; it contributes nothing to the calling of the church, i.e., the saving of souls.

I have seen participants in on-line "Rapture" forums ready to pronounce anathemas upon those who did not share their own view, especially the mid-Trib or post-Trib position.

They may be, IMHO, as blind as bats, but a knock down, drag out, is hardly required, as the doctrine of salvation is not inseparably entwined into faulty positions on Eschatology.

Are those in Revelation 7:14 and in Revelation 20:4, who were saved during the Tribulation by the 144,000 Jewish Evangelists and subsequently martyred for their testimony of Jesus and refusal of the mark of the beast, not the same?

As they came to life (were resurrected), at the beginning of Jesus Christ, the Messiah's 1,000 year reign on David's throne, already on earth, they could not have been raptured off of or snatched from the earth. Upon their death, their souls would have individually ascended to God (or been escorted by God's angel), as ours are today.

A Jewish listener, due to the extensive invitation at the parable's end, would hear in the wedding story of Matthew 22 an allusion to the Great Banquet of God in Isaiah 25.6–8; a banquet for all believers on earth.

Revelation 7:9,14
9 "After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,"

13 "Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?"

14 "I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 20:4 After Satan is Bound for the Thousand Years

4 "Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

No one can definitively state which was written first, I and II Corinthians (54 - 56 A.D.) or the gospel of Matthew (early 50s - 60s A.D.), though I believe it was Matthew, and John's gospel (60s - 90s) later.

A mystery is something of God that is concealed in the Old Testament, the Tanakh, and revealed in the New Testament.

Once Jesus spoke those words of believers being snatched from the earth to escape God's wrath, it was technically no longer a mystery - even by your definition, - for men on earth, even to their limited understanding, had been foretold.

Matthew's gospel is written to the Jewish people with an emphasis on their known Scriptures, traditions and culture. Paul wrote to the gentiles, as Jesus had commissioned him, principally to the Greeks, appealing thru their pagan culture often Greek philosophers and history with which they were familiar.

I know of no dissertations by Jesus distinguishing between two separate raptures... one to escape God's wrath (the purpose of the Rapture), and a second Rapture to escape God's wrath AFTER being subjected to it?

To what end?

Finally, although most of those who refuse the Mark of the Beast because of their faith in Christ will be killed (Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:9-17 speak of this multitude), the 144,000 Jewish Evangelists will survive, as they have the seal of God upon them (Revelation 7:1-8).

In addition, there will be some saved Gentiles who emerge alive at the end of the Tribulation, for the Judgment of the Nations (Matthew 25:31-46) would be irrelevant otherwise, as there would be no one living among the "sheep nations” to successfully stand judgment and proceed with our Lord into the Millennial Kingdom.

Again, because some who came to faith in Christ during the Tribulation will be alive upon the earth at the end of the Tribulation, I see no reason to believe some elitist group was raptured off in a second until-now-unknown Rapture, after the Rapture.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

"Don't know what man you follow, but hell is plainly described by the God of the Bible."

Yes it is;
https://youtu.be/v9-RSPjGPHg

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

For the sake of the reader I will be as brief as possible limiting my dazzle.
I too strongly believe in the pre-Trib Rapture of the Church, the Bride, the Body of Christ as revealed through Paul by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Any notion that I might be mixing that Rapture with a rapture during the Trib of the Church would only be a strawman.
I certainly agree there may be those "blind as bats" but it is not me.

You ask if those saved during the Trib are not the same. No knowing exactly to what you refer as being "same as", I would confirm they are not the same as the Church who are said to be "in Christ" because they are termed as "in the Lord".

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 14:12-13 -KJV

However one might Biblically term them the same as the OT Saints who were also termed in the Lord.

I use the Biblical definition of a mystery, it is something hid in God, granted as Larkin said there are many things in the Old revealed in the New; however I prefer the Biblical definition.
It matters not when the words of Jesus or Paul were put to paper, I am referring to when they were spoken.
If the words of Jesus in Matt 24 and John 14 were indeed speaking of a pre-Trib Rapture of the Church, then Paul was not speaking the truth.
However I have no doubt Paul and Jesus were both speaking the truth, therefore the words of Jesus were informing His audience of an event other than the pre-Trib Rapture of the Church as revealed through Paul.

You ask "to what end?" A simple reading of the wedding gives the answer. The wedding in Heaven between the Bridegroom and Bride is to be furnished with guests.

So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. Matthew 22:10 - KJV

One other point. You term this as "until-now-unknown", I certainly concede this reading is unknown to many learned scholars, but rest assured it is not something new to many Bible Believers.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Let me also add zeroing in on the above.
I have also seen those debates and in those debates many times the "mid-Trib" folks will us the Matt 24 and John 14 passages to support their position.
They are half right.
Those gospel passages do point to a catching out; but not a catching out of Christians, those placed in Christ.
There was not one Christian in the audience when Jesus voiced those words. Sure there were believers and followers of Jesus; but to term them Christians belittles the power of the cross and the shed blood of Christ.
Many folks and modern versions do not even acknowledge the "how" He died as being important as in the following:

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:3 - KJV

IMO anyone who contributes the words of Jesus in the gospels to the pre-Trib Rapture of the Church has a certain level of responsibility to the on going debate of the mid-tribbers simply because they do not expose the truth of scripture.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

I watched your short video. It's always good to see what the other side believes.
Ok, I'm talking to you, not some man in a video nor some other man who has written a fine prose.
God tells us to read the Bible, He does not instruct us to follow other men. Sure we might read a commentary or watch a video, but we should also check out what other men say by study and comparing with the word of God.
Until an individual can state a concept or belief system in their own words, they have not studied enough.

In this forum I would like to hear your beliefs and thoughts not some video or cut and paste job of other men's thoughts.

Therefore what is your personal opinion of the words from the man in the video compared to the words below from God?

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:22-23 - KJV

Does not sound like a place to be to me. How about you?

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

"In this forum I would like to hear your beliefs and thoughts not some video or cut and paste job of other men's thoughts."
My beliefs are of no consequence except for me, although I may influence others to do their own research. That is how it must be.

I believe that "Hell" is a mis-taught place/condition in most religions/churches.
Especially by Catholicism.
A scare tactic?
In short; Hell is separation from God/Yah.
No one in eternal fire and pain.
Although; There may be punishment waiting for the wicked.
IMO; God will be just.
Forgiveness is for the asking along with repentance.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Ok, since you do your own research can we focus on that one verse Luke 16:23?
Do you think that man in hell was truly in torment as is written?

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

Your defense of there being Hell is well defended.
Did I say there is no Hell?
There are a few definitions and mentions of Hell in the Bible.
Taking one verse by itself can be misleading. Jesus was teaching some things in that chapter.
Read the whole chapter (Luke 16), calling out the Pharisees, and reading their minds, being a point.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Ok, then I will assume you believing the Bible was just joking by saying the rich man was in torment.
Tell me, since you don't believe the Bible was truthful in this instance, how do know the Bible is truthful when it says your saved and going to Heaven?

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

You presume too much as to the relative value of Bible Words known to individual "Bible believers..."

Nor does Clarence Larkin (1850–1924) American Baptist pastor, Bible teacher and author on Dispensationalism, have any copywrite on single English words, or even phrases, nor, for that matter, did he, Darby or Scofield create Dispensationalism.

It is a fact that every Christian cult and most non-Christian cults incorporate words taken from the Bible within their documents, their lessons, their propaganda, their declarations, because God's words communicate to the soul of man. They have only limited spiritual power, however, in a pagan setting, lacking the whole counsel of God, because they are misapplied and obscured by teachings from the imagination of man, prompted often by demonic entities.

"Mystery" appears in the New Testament approximately twenty-five times, once in the Gospels ( Mark 4:11; compare Matthew 13:11; Luke 8:10 ), twenty-one times in Paul's writings, and a few times in Revelation. The term has several facets, but clearly differs from its usage in the "mystery religions" of that age from which so many of the 1st century Christians had emerged. "Mystery" in the New Testament is described as an “open secret” - matters in God's eternal purposes previously concealed, but now being revealed (Ephesians 3:3-5; 1st Corinthians 2:7-8 ).

Contrasting with the multitudinous mystery religions, the "mystery" of the New Testament is within the historical activity of Christ (Colossians 2:2; Ephesians 1:9 ); Christ is the hope of glory (Colossians 1:26-27 ), and the mystery is spiritually received (Ephesians 3:4-5 ) and manifested through the gospel's proclamation (Ephesians 6:19 ), including the disclosure that Gentiles now share in the gospel's blessings (Ephesians 2:11-13 ).

How you choose to abbreviate the words on your own posts "for the sake of your hypothetical (presumed) readers" is your purview.

Rest assured your dazzle was well obscured.

When you choose to alleviate the two Bible passages I posted, then you declare there is when the two referred to passages I'm contrasting were facing you on the page, you become disingenuous:

I referred to Revelation 7:14 (the souls of the Tribulation saints in heaven), and Revelation 20:4 (the reunion of those same saints' souls with their resurrected bodies upon earth at the beginning of Christ's millennial reign, with no rapture involved), the two passages which you eliminated in your "abbreviation."

There was in no way any inference that you were "as blind as a bat." The clear reference, again, in the words you omitted, were to anyone who denies that the Rapture is clearly spelled out in Scripture.

...as for suggesting I'm setting up "straw men," meaning: so as to easily refute or defeat, that is a bridge too far, over a dry stream, and unneeded.

Every Bible believing Christian understands that the inception of Christianity became a reality upon this earth on Shavu'ot/Pentecost (Acts 2), which was a fulfillment of Jesus Words.

Every Bible believing Christian also understands that Jesus' Words, though initially addressed to the Jewish people, speak to all men, of every age.

John 7:46 "Never has a man spoken as this man speaks."

If the words of Jesus Christ were intended only for the Jewish people, whom He initially addressed, it would be time to form "collect and deliver" brigades within every Christian congregation and Christian community to identify, retrieve and deliver every "Red Letter" edition of the Christian Bible to the nearest Jewish community center/Hebrew kehilla/Temple/Synagogue or Shul.

We are on the same page if you believe Jesus IS the means to our salvation and the ONLY way to the Father; then, we can walk in peace with one another.

If being pugnatious - "combative in nature" is your forte, it is not, nor has it ever been, or will it ever be, mine. Buy a punching bag.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

I totally agree dispensationalism far predates contemporary writers, so we can lay that discussion aside.

I also agree most denominations and cults do have Bible passages as their fundamentals of their faith, but through the eye of dispensationalism we can easily discern doctrinal application.
However I fall short of contributing all there imaginations to demonic entities.
We see in the passage below when man rejects God's words and goes his own way, God will step in giving that man spiritual reinforcement of his error.
This is why it is so important for us today to first discern which is indeed the word of God, and then read and believe it.

1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; Ezekiel 14:1-4 - KJV

As we see in the above that even a Baptist fundamentalist who doctrinally applies a passage like Eph 2:8 to everyone in scripture when God's word does not, can receive spiritual assurance of the error from God Himself.

I also agree that "mystery" appears in the gospels. And since we both know the OT ended at the cross I assume this was your meaning in previous post when you stated a mystery was something stated in the Old and revealed in the New.
However when Jesus revealed a mystery in the gospels, He also revealed what was being revealed. As when He revealed the Kingdom "mysteries", He went on to describe the differences between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God.

You need to know I greatly treasure the historical activity of Jesus on the cross and I treasure the teaching of Jesus while on earth which have doctrine application to the Church for these are repeated in the writings of Paul as revealed to him by the Lord Jesus Christ.
But I also realize many earthly teachings of Jesus were directed to His Jewish audience giving them words to live by during the prophetic Tribulation and Millennium.

So let us get back on topic and zero in on the passages in question. In neither of the passages you used to support the Rapture of the Church (Matt 24 or John 14) did Jesus refer to them as a mystery as He did in other places in the gospels, but yes, He did describe a catching out.
Jesus later through the writings of Paul described the catching out of the Church as a mystery denoting this as first mention of the Rapture of the Church.

So the question remains: who was Jesus speaking of as being caught out when He spoke in the flesh at the two passages above in question?

We can certainly later search The Revelation for when this might take place, but for now the question is who are they. But what we cannot do is say those in question are the Bride because that would make Paul writing incorrectly.

IMO they are the guests of Matt 22:10. What say you?

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

"If the words of Jesus Christ were intended only for the Jewish people, whom He initially addressed, it would be time to form "collect and deliver" brigades within every Christian congregation and Christian community to identify, retrieve and deliver every "Red Letter" edition of the Christian Bible to the nearest Jewish community center/Hebrew kehilla/Temple/Synagogue or Shul." - Zemirah

Jesus came to awaken the lost sheep of the house of Israel (10 tribes). Hebrew Israelites. Not imposters. Not vipers and hypocrites, as he called the infiltrated Pharisees, Essau/Edom and the like.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

This brought on a chuckle for me because any dazzle on my part is intended to be obscured.
The intent in my writing is directed toward the babes in Christ, written in plain simple words. Many times a new convert is told to read the Bible and then left to their own.
They pick up their Bible and read in Matt to endure to the end or that they should pluck out an eye or cut off a hand.
Then they turn to Hebrews and read where if a person who was a partaker of the Holy Ghost but then falls away cannot be renewed.
They soon loose interest in confusion.
They need to be shown that those instructions in Matthew and Hebrews do have doctrinal application, but the application is to Jews on earth during the 7 yr Tribulation not to members of the Church, the Body of Christ in this Age of Grace.

I would much rather speak to them on their level than to dazzle them with words only exchanged in the halls of scholarship.