My understanding is intact, Oleg.
Your discussion is with yourself.
Your standard "brainwashed" response to all responses and queries is nonproductive.
Assigning me or anyone else as a stereotypical "fundamentalist" is intellectually dishonest.
I am a Bible Believing, Born-again Evangelical Christian.
Being fundamental in clinging to literal Bible Truths is a plus for all believers, however.
Your own machinations more closely adhere to the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist "King James Only" criteria than any living example I've seen displayed.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/machinationsplural noun - You use machinations to describe secret and complicated plans, especially to gain power.
The King James Bible was commissioned by the Church of England to compete with the popular Geneva Bible, and is one of five English language Bibles produced by 1611.
In the 1550's, the Church at Geneva, Switzerland, was very sympathetic to the reformer refugees from England, and was one of only a few safe havens for a desperate people. Many of them met in Geneva, led by Myles Coverdale and John Foxe (publisher of the famous Foxe's Book of Martyrs, which is to this day the only exhaustive reference work on the persecution and martyrdom of Early Christians and Protestants from the first century up to the mid-16th century), as well as Thomas Sampson and William Whittingham.
There, with the protection of theologian John Calvin and John Knox, the Reformer of the Scottish Church, the Church of Geneva determined to produce a Bible that would educate their families while they continued in exile.
The Geneva Bible was the first Bible to add numbered verses to the chapters, so that referencing specific passages would be easier. Every chapter was also accompanied by extensive marginal notes and references so thorough and complete that the Geneva Bible is also considered the first English "Study Bible."
William Shakespeare quotes hundreds of times in his plays from the Geneva translation of the Bible. The Geneva Bible became the Bible of choice for over 100 years of English speaking Christians. Between 1560 and 1644 at least 144 editions of this Bible were published. Examination of the 1611 King James Bible shows clearly that its translators were influenced much more by the Geneva Bible, than by any other source.
The Geneva Bible retains over 90% of William Tyndale's original English translation. The Geneva Bible remained more popular than the King James Version until decades after its original release in 1611! The Geneva holds the honor of being the first Bible taken to America, and the Bible of the Puritans and Pilgrims. It is truly the “Bible of the Protestant Reformation.”
The King James printed Bible is no more "perfect" than any other version of God's Holy Word.
A typographical discrepancy in the 1st printing of the King James printing of Ruth 3:15 rendered a pronoun "He" instead of "She" in that verse in some printings. This caused some of the 1611 First Editions to be known by collectors as "He" Bibles, and others as "She" Bibles. Starting just one year after the huge 1611 pulpit-size King James Bibles were printed and chained to every church pulpit in England.
The Anglican Church’s King James Bible took decades to overcome the more popular Protestant Church’s Geneva Bible. One of the greatest ironies of history, is that many Protestant Christian churches today embrace the King James Bible exclusively as the “only” legitimate English language translation… yet it is not even a Protestant translation!
It was printed to compete with the Protestant Geneva Bible, by authorities who throughout most of history were hostile to Protestants… and killed them. While many Protestants are quick to assign the full blame of persecution to the Roman Catholic Church, even after England broke from Roman Catholicism in the 1500’s, the Church of England (The Anglican Church) continued to persecute Protestants throughout the 1600’s.
Throughout the 1600’s, as the Puritans and the Pilgrims fled the religious persecution of England to cross the Atlantic and start a new free nation in America, they took with them their prized Geneva Bible, and rejected the King’s Bible. America was founded upon the Geneva Bible, not the King James Bible
The OT saints were saved the same way the New Testament saints were/are saved, by faith.
For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,
6just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered.
8“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account” (Rom. 4:3-8).
The Bible tells us that Abraham was justified by faith (see Rom. 5:1 and Eph. 2:8-9). That is, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, v. 4 above. They were saved by faith in the Messiah in whom they were trusting. Only, for them, it was a trust in the future Messiah God was providing. They knew He was coming as had been prophesied.
Also, the Holy Spirit was there in the Old Testament. Consider David's plea to God in Psalm 51:11, “Do not cast me away from Thy presence, And do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me.”
God did not change how He saved people in the New Testament. It has always been by faith. In the case of God's Old Testament people, they looked ahead in time to the Messiah (Isaiah 53). Since Calvary, they all look back to Him and see the cross.
Both Old Testament and New Testament Believers are saved by the same Savior, Jesus Christ. That is the message.
If you wish to argue, do so with God.
That's all.
olegig wrote:
Seems you do not understand the topic of discussion. It is not how man finds salvation today, it is the plan of God to keep the OT Saint saved from hell until the blood of Christ was shed so it could be spread upon them.
All the scriptures you posted from Paul were after the cross, doctrinally directed to folks in this Age of Grace.
You might note in Eph 2:8 Paul says "ye" meaning his ministry NOT everyone in the Bible.
You, as with all fundamentalist no matter which denomination, take one verse and brand it as "the fundamental of the faith". The Catholic fundamentalist find theirs in Matthew and Hebrews, the Church of Christ hang their hat on Acts 2:8, and the Baptist Eph 2:8. All these verse do contain instructions from God, but we must discern to whom God applies the doctrine, not make the application to our own liking.
God says He will deal with different groups differently and so should we!
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 3:30 KJV
But of course before one can begin to grasp the meaning of God in Rom 3:30 one must understand the two different faiths at work today, man's personal faith and the Faith of Christ. This very, very important doctrine is hid in all modern versions most likely because they all have manuscripts passed down through and massaged by the catholic church in their history.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 - KJV
Also the fundamentalist totally neglects a full body of scripture because it does not agree with their PRIVATE theology as examples below:
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Ezekiel 18:26-27 KJV
In order to prove your position you must show:
Abraham or any other OT Saint being indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are.
Abraham or any other OT Saint being placed in Christ as we are.
Abraham or any other OT Saint being covered by the preciously shed blood of Christ before it was physically shed at CALVARY!
Abraham going straight to the Throne of God upon his physical death as we do. Check out Luke 16 where we find Abraham within shooting distance of hell itself.
For the life of me I cannot understand how someone can spread the blood of Christ before it was shed when God Himself DOES NOT!
This discussion might prove far more productive if you would simply address the issues above otherwise we might suppose you really have no understanding of what full and complete salvation to the Throne entails.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:3 -KJV
Please note in the above the simple word "how", I realize it is not in the man written commentary you follow; but it carries great importance.
Our Lord Jesus Christ bled to death so the blood of God could be spread upon all men.
Where do you find the power or permission to spread this precious blood before it was shed?
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