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If This Is What It's Like, I Want No Part In It
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Feb 26, 2021 09:30:56   #
olegig Loc: Texas panhandle
 
The other day I was visiting with a friend. He had received his second COVID vaccination and about a day later felt terrible for a day and a half.
He said if the real thing was like that, he wanted nothing to do with it.
I thought on this for a while. I decided to carry a bix lighter with me so when witnessing for the Lord to someone I can simply light a fire under their hand.

Reply
Feb 26, 2021 20:58:52   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Humor is beneficial to man's overall well-being, and that is humorous;

Understanding it would be an effective method of garnering your friend's attention, - do you believe anyone can be validly converted to Christianity if their sole motivation is fear and avoidance of a destiny in hell?

The burn would heal, and the memory of man is short.

Hebrews 11:6 tells us: "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."

...nor would fear alone sustain one's faith in God for the long haul.

One of the strongest appeals of the gospel of Jesus Christ is spelled out, IMHO, by the verse: "We love Him because He first loved us." (1st John 4:19)

This is preceded by 1st John 4:10:
"And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

It is possible someone may initially profess to become a Christian largely or even principally because of fear, the famed technique of evangelist, Jonathon Edwards (1703 - 1758, Princeton, New Jersey theologian of British American Puritanism), comes to mind, but can one sincerely believe in faith and repent of their sins from fear alone?

Emperor Constantine also comes to mind, after decades of procrastinating, as he promoted Christianity throughout his Roman Empire, he personally professed his acceptance of Christ and was baptized only upon his death bed (hedging his bets, so to speak), in 337 A.D. by the Arian bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia.

Modern historiography has concluded that Constantine chose to promote "Christendom" as an instrument to bolster his reign for decades by using the rapidly growing faith as a binding agent, a glue, to solidify his disintegrating Roman Empire, while retaining his title of Pontifex Maximus which conferred upon him the head priesthood of all Rome's pagan religions during their official worship services.

It is true that the Bible informs us that "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 1:7), however, that translation, when reversed to the Hebrew, means "reverential awe," not abject terror.

1st John 4:18 "perfect love casts out fear." for those who come to Christ, not because they fear hell, but because they believe in and love Jesus Christ.

The Bible says anyone who believes the gospel, that Jesus paid-in-full our sin debt, with the blood atonement of His death on the cross, and publicly confesses that Jesus is His savior and Lord, the Son of God, repenting of their sin, is saved.

If fear is a principle motivation for one deciding to make Jesus Lord, to repent, and be welcomed into the Body of Christ, then a faithful Christian, through his intercommunication with Almighty God by Bible study, and prayer, will soon move from fear to love as the motivating factor for his faith.

In 1st John 4:18 above, the word translated as "perfect" means completeness or maturity. As our love for God and our knowledge of His love for us grows as Christians, love will increase and "fear" will decrease, although reverential awe will remain.

Again, I understood your humor, because the gospel of Jesus, the "Good News" is so often disparaged in our contemporary time and place, as to despair of effectively lighting a fire under anyone in a less spectacular manner, though the Holy Spirit still has perfect timing, and man retains his free will.


olegig wrote:
The other day I was visiting with a friend. He had received his second COVID vaccination and about a day later felt terrible for a day and a half.
He said if the real thing was like that, he wanted nothing to do with it.
I thought on this for a while. I decided to carry a bix lighter with me so when witnessing for the Lord to someone I can simply light a fire under their hand.

Reply
Feb 26, 2021 22:15:26   #
olegig Loc: Texas panhandle
 
Zemirah wrote:
Humor is beneficial to man's overall well-being, and that is humorous;
Understanding it would be an effective method of garnering your friend's attention, - do you believe anyone can be validly converted to Christianity if their sole motivation is fear and avoidance of a destiny in hell?
The burn would heal, and the memory of man is short.
Hebrews 11:6


I believe we find the doctrines of salvation in this Age of Grace from the writings of Paul.
If a man says he believes in how He died, was buried and rose again, I do not question his salvation.

Reply
 
 
Feb 27, 2021 21:25:38   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Paul, himself said: "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God."
(Acts 20:26-27)

If only Paul's writings were necessary, God would not have inspired a total of 27 New Testament books, written by eight Holy Spirit inspired authors.

• Every word in the Bible is part of a verse.
• Every verse is part of a paragraph.
• Every paragraph is part of a book.
• Every book is part of the whole of Scripture.

Because that is the case, no verse of Scripture should be divorced from the verses around it.
The word "hermeneutic" is from a Greek word which means to "explain, expound, interpret, translate." The rules for interpreting Holy Scripture must not be created by the Church.

"Scripture interprets Scripture" is to read a passage in question in the light of the entire Bible on that topic. It also states that we should interpret confusing passages based on clearer passages.

Jesus used Scripture to interpret Scripture when He was tempted by the devil. By doing this, Jesus communicated to us that a passage of Scripture must be understood in the light of those clearer and more expressive Scriptures.

In Matthew 7, Jesus said people are dividing between two different paths of belief to salvation, and that only one path is the way;
One path is by works and deeds and the other is by trusting in the completed work of Jesus Christ, the foretold, prophecy-fulfilling Messiah, for their righteousness.

Good works are important, but they aren't the basis of our salvation. They are the result of our salvation, demonstrating the reality of our faith in Jesus.

7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

- Jesus' judgment of "pretenders" -

23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:21-23)

He also talked about two gates which are the narrow gate and the wide gate. Jesus said,

““Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad and easy to travel is the path that leads the way to destruction and eternal loss, and there are many who enter through it.
But small is the gate and narrow and difficult to travel is the path that leads the way to everlasting life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

1 Timothy 2:6 says that Jesus “gave Himself a ransom for all.”

“Then,” someone might ask, “why are not all people saved?”

Because the forgiveness of sins does not occur until a person places his faith in Jesus (Acts 17:30; John 3:16; 1 John 5:12). Christ’s atonement is unlimited, but its application is limited only to those who believe.

If a person does not believe, but opposes God and rejects Him, then what Christ did on the cross for that person will not be applied to him. God will not force His salvation upon somebody who does not want it.

John 3:16 says:
“Whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

Unbelief is the reason some do not receive the benefits of Christ’s death.

Conclusions are not to be built upon our interpretation of a Scripture on a single verse, or even an entire book, but on Scripture as a whole. Scripture is the best interpreter of itself. Because that is the case, the first commentary to consult on a passage is what the rest of the Scriptures have to say on any topic being examined.

So, the first guideline or principle for rightly dividing the Word: “Let Scripture interpret Scripture”—incredibly simple yet basic!

Jesus declares time and time again, “let anyone who has ears to hear, let him hear” (Mark 4:23; 11:15; Matt. 11:15).
Those who are convinced of their sin and misery, who have their minds enlightened, and hearts persuaded, who are ready to respond to the Holy Spirit's conviction and embrace Christ will receive and embrace the message as a call of salvation on their lives (John 6:44, 65).


olegig wrote:
I believe we find the doctrines of salvation in this Age of Grace from the writings of Paul.
If a man says he believes in how He died, was buried and rose again, I do not question his salvation.

Reply
Feb 28, 2021 06:34:09   #
olegig Loc: Texas panhandle
 
Zemirah wrote:
Conclusions are not to be built upon our interpretation of a Scripture on a single verse, or even an entire book, but on Scripture as a whole. Scripture is the best interpreter of itself. Because that is the case, the first commentary to consult on a passage is what the rest of the Scriptures have to say on any topic being examined.

So, the first guideline or principle for rightly dividing the Word: “Let Scripture interpret Scripture”—incredibly simple yet basic!


Ok, so how should the following scriptures that give opposing doctrine be interpreted?

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:14-15 - KJV

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Ephesians 4:32 - KJV

Reply
Mar 1, 2021 09:01:15   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
I've added a bit of context to your two verses of concern in Matthew 6:14-15, Olegig, - I'm not sure what it is you believe these two separate passages are opposing.

Obviously, these first two verses you have highlighted reside within the beloved Lord's Prayer.

Jesus is addressing His Words to His followers, those who already are and who will be believers on Jesus Christ (within the body of Christ); this passage does not refer to the forgiveness of God that initiated individual salvation.

That is a done deal.

Jesus is speaking of the necessity of continuous forgiveness of each other within the Body of Christ; to maintain the communion of living saints - with each other, and with God, the Father and His indwelling Holy Spirit, who is God (and also has personhood within the Triune Godhead), so as not to hinder the effective spiritual intercommunication that must exist within the members of the mystical union which is the universal Christian church.

Matthew 6:12-16:
12 "and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who sin against us.
13 And don’t let us yield to temptation,
but rescue us from the evil one.

14 "If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
15 But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.


16 "And when you fast, don’t make it obvious, as the hypocrites do, for they try to look miserable and disheveled so people will admire them for their fasting. I tell you the truth, that is the only reward they will ever get."

A reassurance of this applying to those already saved and "walking in the light" is:

1st John 1:7-10:

…7 "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us."


The admonition of Ephesians 4:32 is written to all Christians of all times.

Within its context:

Ephesians 4:29-32:

29 "Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building up the one in need and bringing grace to those who listen.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice.
32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you."

Again, their salvation is a done deal... The sinning against each other, confessing, and forgiving is continuous, as is daily confessing our sins to God and receiving forgiveness.


olegig wrote:
Ok, so how should the following scriptures that give opposing doctrine be interpreted?

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:14-15 - KJV

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Ephesians 4:32 - KJV

Reply
Mar 1, 2021 12:46:18   #
olegig Loc: Texas panhandle
 
Zemirah wrote:
I've added a bit of context to your two verses of concern in Matthew 6:14-15, Olegig, - I'm not sure what it is you believe these two separate passages are opposing.
Obviously, these first two verses you have highlighted reside within the beloved Lord's Prayer.
Jesus is addressing His Words to His followers, those who already are and who will be believers on Jesus Christ (within the body of Christ); this passage does not refer to the forgiveness of God that initiated individual salvation.
That is a done deal.
Again, their salvation is a done deal... The sinning against each other, confessing, and forgiving is continuous, as is daily confessing our sins to God and receiving forgiveness.
I've added a bit of context to your two verses of ... (show quote)


I've shorted your context in the interest of benefiting the reader with brevity.
The two passages are not opposing, they simply show Israel (the audience in Matthew) still under the OT economy; while the passage from Paul in Ephesians shows the dispensation of Grace as revealed by the Lord Jesus Christ through Paul.

Quiet simply the Matthew passage says they had to do something to get forgiveness, they had to first give forgiveness. Contrasted with the Ephesians passage which says they might as well give forgiveness because they already have forgiveness.
The two passages simply show the power of the cross by demonstrating the before and after.

As we know no one can be before the throne without being covered by the blood and the blood cannot be spread before it was spread. (Heb 9:11......)

Yes they are part of what many term the Lord's Prayer, however we must realize this prayer was given to Jews as an example prayer a Jew on earth during the future Trib might recite.
Members of the Body, Christians, are not waiting for the Kingdom of Heaven, the Millennium Reign, to come to earth.
We are praying for the Rapture.

The majority of Jesus' teaching while in the flesh are doctrinally directed to the Jews, serving as a constitution or words to live by during the coming 7 yr Trib and the following 1,000 yr Reign.
Of course some of His teachings do have doctrinal application to the Church which are easily recognized by the fact Paul repeated them.

Another example of these dispensational changes are shown when the OT Saint was told an eye for an eye, then Jesus in the flesh instructed to turn the other cheek, and then finally Jesus in the Spirit instructed through Paul that we should handle things if possible but if not turn it over to the authorities.

I see no one's salvation as a "done deal" until the shedding of God's blood at the cross.

Reply
 
 
Mar 2, 2021 12:44:39   #
Armageddun Loc: The show me state
 
Zemirah wrote:
Humor is beneficial to man's overall well-being, and that is humorous;

Understanding it would be an effective method of garnering your friend's attention, - do you believe anyone can be validly converted to Christianity if their sole motivation is fear and avoidance of a destiny in hell?

The burn would heal, and the memory of man is short.

Hebrews 11:6 tells us: "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."

...nor would fear alone sustain one's faith in God for the long haul.

One of the strongest appeals of the gospel of Jesus Christ is spelled out, IMHO, by the verse: "We love Him because He first loved us." (1st John 4:19)

This is preceded by 1st John 4:10:
"And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

It is possible someone may initially profess to become a Christian largely or even principally because of fear, the famed technique of evangelist, Jonathon Edwards (1703 - 1758, Princeton, New Jersey theologian of British American Puritanism), comes to mind, but can one sincerely believe in faith and repent of their sins from fear alone?

Emperor Constantine also comes to mind, after decades of procrastinating, as he promoted Christianity throughout his Roman Empire, he personally professed his acceptance of Christ and was baptized only upon his death bed (hedging his bets, so to speak), in 337 A.D. by the Arian bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia.

Modern historiography has concluded that Constantine chose to promote "Christendom" as an instrument to bolster his reign for decades by using the rapidly growing faith as a binding agent, a glue, to solidify his disintegrating Roman Empire, while retaining his title of Pontifex Maximus which conferred upon him the head priesthood of all Rome's pagan religions during their official worship services.

It is true that the Bible informs us that "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 1:7), however, that translation, when reversed to the Hebrew, means "reverential awe," not abject terror.

1st John 4:18 "perfect love casts out fear." for those who come to Christ, not because they fear hell, but because they believe in and love Jesus Christ.

The Bible says anyone who believes the gospel, that Jesus paid-in-full our sin debt, with the blood atonement of His death on the cross, and publicly confesses that Jesus is His savior and Lord, the Son of God, repenting of their sin, is saved.

If fear is a principle motivation for one deciding to make Jesus Lord, to repent, and be welcomed into the Body of Christ, then a faithful Christian, through his intercommunication with Almighty God by Bible study, and prayer, will soon move from fear to love as the motivating factor for his faith.

In 1st John 4:18 above, the word translated as "perfect" means completeness or maturity. As our love for God and our knowledge of His love for us grows as Christians, love will increase and "fear" will decrease, although reverential awe will remain.

Again, I understood your humor, because the gospel of Jesus, the "Good News" is so often disparaged in our contemporary time and place, as to despair of effectively lighting a fire under anyone in a less spectacular manner, though the Holy Spirit still has perfect timing, and man retains his free will.
Humor is beneficial to man's overall well-being, a... (show quote)


Amen

Reply
Mar 2, 2021 12:49:05   #
Armageddun Loc: The show me state
 
Zemirah wrote:
I've added a bit of context to your two verses of concern in Matthew 6:14-15, Olegig, - I'm not sure what it is you believe these two separate passages are opposing.

Obviously, these first two verses you have highlighted reside within the beloved Lord's Prayer.

Jesus is addressing His Words to His followers, those who already are and who will be believers on Jesus Christ (within the body of Christ); this passage does not refer to the forgiveness of God that initiated individual salvation.

That is a done deal.

Jesus is speaking of the necessity of continuous forgiveness of each other within the Body of Christ; to maintain the communion of living saints - with each other, and with God, the Father and His indwelling Holy Spirit, who is God (and also has personhood within the Triune Godhead), so as not to hinder the effective spiritual intercommunication that must exist within the members of the mystical union which is the universal Christian church.

Matthew 6:12-16:
12 "and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who sin against us.
13 And don’t let us yield to temptation,
but rescue us from the evil one.

14 "If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
15 But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.


16 "And when you fast, don’t make it obvious, as the hypocrites do, for they try to look miserable and disheveled so people will admire them for their fasting. I tell you the truth, that is the only reward they will ever get."

A reassurance of this applying to those already saved and "walking in the light" is:

1st John 1:7-10:

…7 "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us."


The admonition of Ephesians 4:32 is written to all Christians of all times.

Within its context:

Ephesians 4:29-32:

29 "Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building up the one in need and bringing grace to those who listen.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice.
32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you."

Again, their salvation is a done deal... The sinning against each other, confessing, and forgiving is continuous, as is daily confessing our sins to God and receiving forgiveness.
I've added a bit of context to your two verses of ... (show quote)


Amen

Reply
Mar 2, 2021 12:51:23   #
Armageddun Loc: The show me state
 
Zemirah wrote:
Paul, himself said: "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God."
(Acts 20:26-27)

If only Paul's writings were necessary, God would not have inspired a total of 27 New Testament books, written by eight Holy Spirit inspired authors.

• Every word in the Bible is part of a verse.
• Every verse is part of a paragraph.
• Every paragraph is part of a book.
• Every book is part of the whole of Scripture.

Because that is the case, no verse of Scripture should be divorced from the verses around it.
The word "hermeneutic" is from a Greek word which means to "explain, expound, interpret, translate." The rules for interpreting Holy Scripture must not be created by the Church.

"Scripture interprets Scripture" is to read a passage in question in the light of the entire Bible on that topic. It also states that we should interpret confusing passages based on clearer passages.

Jesus used Scripture to interpret Scripture when He was tempted by the devil. By doing this, Jesus communicated to us that a passage of Scripture must be understood in the light of those clearer and more expressive Scriptures.

In Matthew 7, Jesus said people are dividing between two different paths of belief to salvation, and that only one path is the way;
One path is by works and deeds and the other is by trusting in the completed work of Jesus Christ, the foretold, prophecy-fulfilling Messiah, for their righteousness.

Good works are important, but they aren't the basis of our salvation. They are the result of our salvation, demonstrating the reality of our faith in Jesus.

7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

- Jesus' judgment of "pretenders" -

23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:21-23)

He also talked about two gates which are the narrow gate and the wide gate. Jesus said,

““Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad and easy to travel is the path that leads the way to destruction and eternal loss, and there are many who enter through it.
But small is the gate and narrow and difficult to travel is the path that leads the way to everlasting life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

1 Timothy 2:6 says that Jesus “gave Himself a ransom for all.”

“Then,” someone might ask, “why are not all people saved?”

Because the forgiveness of sins does not occur until a person places his faith in Jesus (Acts 17:30; John 3:16; 1 John 5:12). Christ’s atonement is unlimited, but its application is limited only to those who believe.

If a person does not believe, but opposes God and rejects Him, then what Christ did on the cross for that person will not be applied to him. God will not force His salvation upon somebody who does not want it.

John 3:16 says:
“Whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

Unbelief is the reason some do not receive the benefits of Christ’s death.

Conclusions are not to be built upon our interpretation of a Scripture on a single verse, or even an entire book, but on Scripture as a whole. Scripture is the best interpreter of itself. Because that is the case, the first commentary to consult on a passage is what the rest of the Scriptures have to say on any topic being examined.

So, the first guideline or principle for rightly dividing the Word: “Let Scripture interpret Scripture”—incredibly simple yet basic!

Jesus declares time and time again, “let anyone who has ears to hear, let him hear” (Mark 4:23; 11:15; Matt. 11:15).
Those who are convinced of their sin and misery, who have their minds enlightened, and hearts persuaded, who are ready to respond to the Holy Spirit's conviction and embrace Christ will receive and embrace the message as a call of salvation on their lives (John 6:44, 65).
Paul, himself said: "Therefore I testify to y... (show quote)


Amen

Reply
Mar 4, 2021 05:10:03   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
[quote=olegig]Yes they are part of what many term the Lord's Prayer, however we must realize this prayer was given to Jews as an example prayer a Jew on earth during the future Trib might recite.[quote/]

You should put your dispensational suppositions on hold, oleg, and if you critique my post, include it in its entirety, for clarity.
Chopping it off at the knees (for so-called "brevity,") then critiquing it in absentia, is not kosher, nor does it benefit the reader.

In your last statement below, and I quote you, "I see no one's salvation as a "done deal" until the shedding of God's blood at the cross." -

You are clearly contradicting God, for it is written in Genesis 15:6 "Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

He was looking ahead 2,400 years to Jesus' "propitiationary atonement" through His shed blood on Calvary, which was applied retroactively to all the old Testament saints.

God considered it a "done deal."

The Lord's prayer was given to His disciples (all of whom became Christians except Judas) in response to their request - for their own imminent use, and it did not in any way wait until the Tribulation to become utilized, nor is it waiting today.

The early Christians were all Jews, with the exception of Luke, the beloved Greek physician. According to the historian, Eusebius, there was a tradition of Jewish leaders of the Christian church within Jerusalem until 132 A.D., when all Jews (including Jewish followers of Yeshua) were expelled from the city by the Romans.

In the late 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries, within the Jewish Diaspora, the Jesus Movement began as a sect within Judaism and spread throughout the Mediterranean region largely by being passed from one Jewish community to another. They began calling themselves Christians after the term was disparagingly applied to them around 50 A.D. at Antioch, the first place in which large numbers of Gentiles joined the church.

In the 20th century, after the Six Day War (1967), many thousands of Jews in Israel, mostly young people and university students, turned in belief to Yeshua as their Mashiach (Messiah). This was especially true in the U.S. where the Messianic Jewish movement was already establishing its own congregations. The pace of Jews coming to faith in Yeshua in Israel was slower, but happened there as well and also in European countries, such as England and France. In the former Soviet Union, after the Iron Curtain fell, thousands of Jews put their faith in Yeshua. Thus, the years after 1967 were ones of great growth for Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Jews are Christians.

There are an estimated 100,000 Messianic Jews worldwide and about another 200,000 partly Jewish or Gentile relatives and friends who worship in their congregations. It is estimated that there are approximately 15,000 to 16,000 openly Messianic Jews living in Israel and about 130 Messianic Jewish congregations. However, their influence on both Jewish and Christian societies is much stronger than their numbers.

There are 350–400 Messianic Jewish congregations in the U.S.. Similarly, there are 350–400 congregations in Russia. There are also up to 5,000 Christians and Jews gathering in Messianic Jewish congregations in Germany, mostly Russian-speaking immigrants from the former Soviet Union. The largest congregation of Messianic Jews in the world is currently in Kiev, Ukraine with over 2,000 members, about half of them being Jewish. There are Messianic groups in South Africa and other places in Africa and Asia. The numbers of all these are increasing rapidly within a relatively short period of time.

There are two versions of the Lord's prayer in the New Testament; one is found in the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 6:9-13) and the other in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 11:1-4).

The Lord's prayer is the prayer which Jesus of Nazareth taught his disciples. It later became the prayer 'par excellence' of all Christians. There are two versions of the Lord's prayer in the New Testament; one is found in the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 6:9-13) and the other in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 11:1-4).

It is believed that Luke's version is an older version of the prayer because it is shorter. Matthew's version, which is more elaborate, contains several additions that are not included in Luke's version.

The Lord's Prayer is also found in the Didache (8:2), an early 2nd century document in Greek, which was discovered in Egypt in 1873. This early manual of Christian teaching
(Didache means teaching in Greek) says: 'You must not pray like the hypocrites, but you should pray as follows' and it basically quotes the version of Matthew, which is as follows:

“Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name.

10 Your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread,

12 and forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation,

but deliver us from evil."


Luke's shorter version goes as follows:
He said to them, "When you pray, say:
Father, hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
And forgive us our sins
for we ourselves forgive everyone indebted to us.
And do not bring us to the time of trial.'

Matthew's version which will later be included in the liturgy of virtually all Christian churches, contains four expressions which were not included in Luke's version.

Luke 11:1-4, The New Oxford Annotated Bible, 1991, New York, Oxford University Press

It is believed that the Lord's prayer was composed in the Aramaic language, which was the vernacular spoken in Judea and Galilee after the Babylonians established their rule over the country in the 6th century B.C.. This prayer is still recited in Syriac (a North Western dialect of Aramaic)in Lebanon, in Syria and in the Assyrian Church of Iraq.

By examining Matthew's version of the prayer, one can immediately recognize the similarity which exists between the first stanza and the first paragraph of the Kaddish, which is one of the most solemn prayers of the Jewish liturgy. This doxology was originally recited at the end of a study-session in a Talmudic Academy or a House of Learning and recited in Aramaic, whereas most of the other prayers of the Jewish liturgy are composed in Hebrew. It was later included in the religious services of the synagogue and recited at the end of the major parts of the service, probably in the 2nd or 1st century B.C..

Each of the petitions which follow the original doxology, corresponds also to a passage of the Jewish liturgy:

'The Lord's Prayer is distinctly Jewish in character, with numerous parallels in Jewish forms of prayer, e.g., 'Bring me not into the power of sin, iniquity, temptation or contempt, and let the good impulse have dominion over me.'

Talmud Babli, Berakhot 60b



olegig wrote:
I've shorted your context in the interest of benefiting the reader with brevity.
The two passages are not opposing, they simply show Israel (the audience in Matthew) still under the OT economy; while the passage from Paul in Ephesians shows the dispensation of Grace as revealed by the Lord Jesus Christ through Paul.

Quiet simply the Matthew passage says they had to do something to get forgiveness, they had to first give forgiveness. Contrasted with the Ephesians passage which says they might as well give forgiveness because they already have forgiveness.
The two passages simply show the power of the cross by demonstrating the before and after.

As we know no one can be before the throne without being covered by the blood and the blood cannot be spread before it was spread. (Heb 9:11......)

Yes they are part of what many term the Lord's Prayer, however we must realize this prayer was given to Jews as an example prayer a Jew on earth during the future Trib might recite.
Members of the Body, Christians, are not waiting for the Kingdom of Heaven, the Millennium Reign, to come to earth.
We are praying for the Rapture.

The majority of Jesus' teaching while in the flesh are doctrinally directed to the Jews, serving as a constitution or words to live by during the coming 7 yr Trib and the following 1,000 yr Reign.
Of course some of His teachings do have doctrinal application to the Church which are easily recognized by the fact Paul repeated them.

Another example of these dispensational changes are shown when the OT Saint was told an eye for an eye, then Jesus in the flesh instructed to turn the other cheek, and then finally Jesus in the Spirit instructed through Paul that we should handle things if possible but if not turn it over to the authorities.

I see no one's salvation as a "done deal" until the shedding of God's blood at the cross.
I've shorted your context in the interest of benef... (show quote)

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Mar 4, 2021 18:23:52   #
Armageddun Loc: The show me state
 
Amen

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Mar 11, 2021 16:35:27   #
olegig Loc: Texas panhandle
 
Zemirah"You are clearly contradicting God, for it is written in Genesis 15:6 "Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
He was looking ahead 2,400 years to Jesus' "propitiationary atonement" through His shed blood on Calvary, which was applied retroactively to all the old Testament saints.
God considered it a "done deal.""

After over 30 yrs of Biblical discussion on the web I go for brevity, it seems to give clarity. I've found most times when someone is attempting to make a non-Biblical point they first pronounce an agreeable premise and then proceed with much writing in the hopes the reader accepts the premise as proof of the position. However all one must do is closely apply the premise to their conclusion to learn if the rest is worth the time. Cutting off the long writing is much akin to cutting off the head of a snake leaving the rest to lay.

Your premise is that Abraham was counted righteous, to which you conclude he was saved just like you and I.
The thing you have overlooked is James 2:21 tells us Abraham was justified when he offered up Isaac which is separated by several chapters and many years.

We today in this Age of Grace are declared righteous AND justified at the very same moment of conversion! James also tells us Abraham's justification came by works while God tells us we today are justified by the FAITH of CHRIST.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 KJV

In order to prove your position you must show:
Abraham or any other OT Saint being indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are.
Abraham or any other OT Saint being placed in Christ as we are.
Abraham or any other OT Saint being covered by the preciously shed blood of Christ before it was physically shed at CALVARY!
Abraham going straight to the Throne of God upon his physical death as we do. Check out Luke 16 where we find Abraham within shooting distance of hell itself.

For the life of me I cannot understand how someone can spread the blood of Christ before it was shed when God Himself DOES NOT!

Perhaps you would do well to buy a book and learn a little dispensationalism while throwing your un-Biblical fundamentalism in the ditch.

Reply
Mar 12, 2021 01:13:51   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Oleg, There is a great deal you don't understand.

Salvation Not By Works: 32 Bible Verses

Psalm 49:7-8
No man can by any means redeem his brother
Or give to God a ransom for him—
For the redemption of his soul is costly,
And he should cease trying forever—

Psalm 127:1-2
A Song of Ascents, of Solomon.
Unless the Lord builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the Lord guards the city,
The watchman keeps awake in vain.
It is vain for you to rise up early,
To retire late,
To eat the bread of painful labors;
For He gives to His beloved even in his sleep.

Isaiah 64:6
For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Ezekiel 7:19
They will fling their silver into the streets and their gold will become an abhorrent thing; their silver and their gold will not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the Lord. They cannot satisfy their appetite nor can they fill their stomachs, for their iniquity has become an occasion of stumbling.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Romans 8:3
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.


Galatians 5:2
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Acts 13:39
and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.


Romans 3:20-30
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;


Romans 4:1-7
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”


Romans 9:31-32
but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,


1 Corinthians 13:1-3
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


Galatians 3:10-12
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”


Galatians 3:21
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

Galatians 4:9-11
But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Galatians 6:15
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Philippians 3:3-9
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

Colossians 2:20-23
If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:4-5
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Hebrews 4:3-10
For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.”

Hebrews 6:1-2
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

James 2:10-11
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Luke 18:9-14
And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.read more.

Matthew 5:20

“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.



olegig wrote:
Zemirah"You are clearly contradicting God, for it is written in Genesis 15:6 "Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
He was looking ahead 2,400 years to Jesus' "propitiationary atonement" through His shed blood on Calvary, which was applied retroactively to all the old Testament saints.
God considered it a "done deal.""

After over 30 yrs of Biblical discussion on the web I go for brevity, it seems to give clarity. I've found most times when someone is attempting to make a non-Biblical point they first pronounce an agreeable premise and then proceed with much writing in the hopes the reader accepts the premise as proof of the position. However all one must do is closely apply the premise to their conclusion to learn if the rest is worth the time. Cutting off the long writing is much akin to cutting off the head of a snake leaving the rest to lay.

Your premise is that Abraham was counted righteous, to which you conclude he was saved just like you and I.
The thing you have overlooked is James 2:21 tells us Abraham was justified when he offered up Isaac which is separated by several chapters and many years.

We today in this Age of Grace are declared righteous AND justified at the very same moment of conversion! James also tells us Abraham's justification came by works while God tells us we today are justified by the FAITH of CHRIST.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 KJV

In order to prove your position you must show:
Abraham or any other OT Saint being indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are.
Abraham or any other OT Saint being placed in Christ as we are.
Abraham or any other OT Saint being covered by the preciously shed blood of Christ before it was physically shed at CALVARY!
Abraham going straight to the Throne of God upon his physical death as we do. Check out Luke 16 where we find Abraham within shooting distance of hell itself.

For the life of me I cannot understand how someone can spread the blood of Christ before it was shed when God Himself DOES NOT!

Perhaps you would do well to buy a book and learn a little dispensationalism while throwing your un-Biblical fundamentalism in the ditch.
Zemirah"You are clearly contradicting God, fo... (show quote)

Reply
Mar 12, 2021 04:38:09   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Oleg,

There is a great deal you don't understand about James, but first - if you read only the beginning and end of posted messages you determine as too overly lengthy for your taste, there is no point in discussing any of mine ever, because that leaves you inadequately informed to even intelligently critique them.

Anything I post has information throughout, or I wouldn't bother to put it on line. I'm not trying to play to an audience, if the Almighty wants someone to see the information, He will bring them by... to my Christian cult-awareness website, and to the posts at OPP.

Your length of time on the internet (thirty years ago) precedes Windows 95, which first made actual web surfing thinkable, IMHO, unless it was through the military.

In 1978, forty three years ago, I was connecting with IBM DOS era spreadsheets software, through a modem, weekly, to five different branches across two states, to obtain information for printing an inventory book for a company.

I was doing accounting on an Apple MacIntosh in 1984, thirty seven years ago, maintaining the accounts of five Arab oil companies located on the Persian Gulf. It was the original Macintosh and the 1st to have a graphical user interface, built-in screen, and mouse, but it had no access to portions of the Middle East at that time, telephone did, and we used to communicate numerical reports by teletype.

In 1990, almost four years before Netscape, the founder of the World Wide Web Foundation and W3C Director developed the first-ever web browser called WorldWideWeb.

There were message boards in the early 90's, but before the mouse, and Windows 95 (twenty six years ago), they were excrutiatingly exasperating.

There is more memory in a phone today than existed in home or office desktops then.


About James, who was also recognized as James the Just, the half-brother of Jesus, sharing the same mother, Mary but not the same father, as Jesus was the son of God, and James was the son of Joseph. He grew up in the same house with Jesus, but his thought process, obviously, would have been far different, and James was not a believer (John 7:5) in Jesus as the son of God... until after the resurrection, and Jesus’ appearance to James and the disciples.

Written and dated around A.D. 45, James’ epistle is believed to be the earliest in the New Testament.This would have been before the first council of Jerusalem in A.D. 50.

The Book of James is the most Jewish book in the New Testament. Bible commentator, scholar and theologian Merrill Unger wrote in his Bible Handbook “If the several passages referring to Christ were eliminated, the whole epistle would be as proper in the canon of the Old Testament as it is in the New Testament.

The epistle could be described as an interpretation of the Old Testament law and the Sermon on the Mount in the light of the Gospel of Christ.” The Council of Jerusalem is the name applied by historians and theologians to a Christian Apostolic Age council held in Jerusalem that determined key parts of Christian ethics.

The synagogue is referenced as the place of meeting as opposed to the church. According to the historian Josephus, James was martyred in A.D. 62.

James challenges followers of Christ to not just “talk the talk” but to also “walk the walk”. While we are encouraged to grow in knowledge around The Word, we are also challenged to not stop at the reading of the Word. One of the greatest focuses is the truth revealed through Jesus’ words in the Sermon on the Mount. Through this, we are motivated to act on what we are taught by Jesus.

James is in transition from Judaism to Christianity, as was the book of Acts. Before that Jerusalem Counsel took place, Christian terminology was not yet being utilized... Jewish terminology is still in play.

BUT, Abraham was not justified by works. No man has ever been, for God has said that He shares His glory with no man. (Isaiah 42:8)

James 2:21
"Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.
23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God."[/quote]

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