American Vet

No. This discussion is about how many ***children*** die of starvation. Stay focused.

So again: The report does not say how many children in the United States die of starvation.

straightUp Loc: California

Oh, OK... So, unless the 3,500 or so Americans that die of starvation every year can be specifically identified as children it's of no interest to the discussion. Never mind the safe bet that that at least some of the 3,500 people starving to death probably *are* children.


Again, I never said it did. I said it reports how many Americans die of starvation. It was meant as the closest approximation I've found at the time. I wasn't expecting you to dismiss the whole thing because it doesn't actually say "children" but I guess I'm not surprised either.

Nevertheless, I've done a little more searching since then and found that the USDA publishes a report on Household Food Security. This is from the latest report...

While children are usually shielded from the disrupted eating patterns and reduced food intake that characterize very low food security, in 2019, both children and adults suffered instances of very low food security in 0.6 percent of households with children (213,000 households).

I know this probably still doesn't meet your requirements for registering any concern about starving children in this country because it doesn't specifically say "X number of children died from starvation" but for anyone who actually cares it should be enough to indicate there IS a significant problem.

I assume you aren't reading my posts entirely and perhaps that's why you failed to answer so many of my questions, such as my interest in how you were involved for 20+ years in the periphery of child starvation. I was curious about what you could teach me, but your refusal to acknowledge the problem without "filling out the proper forms" tells me that your experience didn't involve any particular concern.

Were you part of the military operations in the Middle East that *caused* children to starve?

A UN report published in 2005 said that malnutrition rates in Iraqi children under five have almost doubled since the US-led invasion - to nearly 8%.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4395525.stm

Just curious.

American Vet

I made a comment about children, you disagreed/didn't like it.

I readily admitted I could not find any specific data on the number of ***children*** in America who die of starvation. Apparently you cannot either. So you move the goal post.

***I assume you aren't reading my posts entirely*** I did - but they were simply comment to support your goal post move.

I made a comment with my anecdotal perspective: The few I know of all involved drugs and/or severe psychiatric issues.

Anything else I can clarify for you?

straightUp Loc: California

You made an unsubstantiated comment about children not starving in America because of poverty. You're right; I didn't like that statement because there *is* evidence that impoverished children in the U.S. are indeed suffering from malnutrition and your off-the-cuff statement denies they even exist. I was simply presenting the evidence that puts your statement in question.


I explained why neither of us will EVER find the specific data on the number of ***children*** in America who "die of starvation" and that's when YOU set up the "goal posts" so that nothing other than that specific, unattainable data can score in your little game.


Then you're reading comprehension is atrocious... I included a LOT of data from numerous sources including the CIA, the UN, the World Health Organization and the USDA. Of course all that circumstantial evidence and all the deduction taken from it falls outside your moronic "goal posts".


And I never questioned that. But I did mention the obvious... that you don't have a personal account of every impoverished family in America.


You already made everything perfectly clear.

Basically...

1. I am supporting the efforts being made by the Democrats to help impoverished families feed their children.

2. You attacked the efforts, saying (without evidence) that child starvation in America isn't caused by poverty.
3. You provided anecdotal evidence that *some* children starve because of neglect.

4. I agreed that neglect is one of several causes while also presenting circumstantial evidence that poverty is most likely another one.

5. You set up your "goal posts" by insisting that the only way to confirm there is any problem is to show records that specifically state "starvation" as a cause of death among children.

5. I explained that such records don't exist because "starvation" is not a medical term that the CDC uses to identify cause of death, so I provided the next best thing... the rate at which Americans die from causes related to malnourishment.

6. You accused me of "moving your goal posts" because that evidence didn't specifically mention "children".

Is politics really so important to you that you are willing to ignore all indications that children are suffering?

I'm just going to leave with one simple statement. Maybe you'll understand it... Suffering is what happens BEFORE you die.

American Vet

Do you have a reading comprehension/understanding problem?

Do you know the difference between "dying" and "malnutrition"? Please explain so I will know that you DO understand the difference.

And stay focused instead of rambling off on your tangent going who knows where.

straightUp Loc: California

Not usually.


I want to give your rhetorical question a rhetorical answer like, "No, I don't know the difference. Please help me." But on the off-chance this will help save the discussion, sure, maybe some definitions would be good... These are not copied from anywhere BTW, these are my personal definitions.

Malnutrition = A condition of the physical body in which there is a deficiency in one or more of the essential nutrients needed to stay healthy and functioning properly.

Death = (too late) Physical body no longer functions. All other aspects of the being no longer appear to exist.

Are they different? Yes, they are. Here's another one that I suspect we don't see the same way...

Starvation = the denial of nutrients that lead to malnutrition.

Technically, people do not "die of starvation", that's more a colloquialism. I'm "dying of starvation" every time a meeting runs past 12:00. Technically, people ALWAYS die from a lack of oxygen to the brain. That can be caused by heart attacks, getting shot, decapitation, respiratory disease, degenerative disease, cancer, poison, burning, electrocution, microwaving, stabbing, concussion, being smashed, blown to bits or vaporized.

Thing is... Sometimes it's a chain of these things that get you to the point of death. Starvation is pretty far upstream. (That was the point I was trying to make earlier.)

The chain of causal events might look something like this...

1. unemployment
2. low budget
3. cheap s**tty food = starvation of some percentage of total essential nutrients.
4. malnutrition (of some percentage of total essential nutrients).
5. c*********d immunity
6. infection (let's say, TB)
7. damage to lungs
8. oxygen to brain cut off
9. dead.

In this case, the CDC goes with #6, TB... So, #3, starvation isn't recorded and your Google search is coming up blank.

I know this sounds different to the classic view of starvation, featuring the African kid with kwashiorkor in a swarm of flies, but keep in mind the difference is a matter of percentages... Starving kids in Somalia are typically deficient in much larger percentages of what they need. They don't have a lot of junk food to keep the calories coming while their deficiencies develop gradual complications, like kids in America do.

When a child is near 100% deficient, like a lot of those kids in Africa are, the chain of events is swift and the association with starvation is more obvious.


LOL - Is that your way of saying you can't keep up?

American Vet

No - just trying to keep it simple for you.

Now again - stay focused: Don't drift off to Africa.

How many children in the US died of starvation?

straightUp Loc: California

Obviously, you don't read or understand my posts, because I already explained this in numerous ways. Maybe I shouldn't confuse you with multiple issues, you seem to have a hard time with that. So here we go... Reeeeal simple...

Starvation can lead to malnutrition which can lead to other issues that cause death but the CDC will never actually record starvation as the cause of death because...



I'll leave it there. Take your time... ask for help if you need it.

American Vet

So to hoist you on your own petard: By your logic, there were no children in America who died of starvation.

However, experts do not agree with you.

Fatal starvation is a rare cause of death in industrialized countries but this entity may become of major medicolegal importance if death results from deliberate withholding of food, especially from infants. In such cases, the task of the forensic pathologist and the medical examiner, respectively, is not only to clarify the cause of death but also to give an expert opinion on the degree and duration of starvation.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1385%2F1-59259-872-2%3A003

According to the World Health Organization, 120 Americans died from "lack of food" in 2004.
Starvation rates in the United States are generally not recorded due to the relative infrequency of the occurrence. Generally speaking, most people do not starve to death in America as a result of lack of access to food. A combination of government food programs and private charities help to ensure this. However, Americans do have a serious problem with malnutrition. Starvation (that is, death due to lack of food) in America, in the relatively rare instances that it does occur, is not usually an indication of poverty but rather a variety of other social issues.
https://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_die_from_starvation_each_year_in_America

straightUp Loc: California

By *my* logic LOTS of children in America have died of starvation. But none of their deaths are recorded as being "caused by starvation" which is why you can't find any in your search. Hey, I'm just trying to help you here.

Do you understand the significance of the word "immediate" in the emphasized sentence? I didn't add that word just to be fancy. Starvation is not an IMMEDIATE cause of death... That doesn't mean starvation won't trigger the immediate cause of death. It just means the CDC will record the immediate cause of death not the act of starvation.

I can only explain this so many times. So yes, starvation in America can lead children to death but it is not currently recorded as a cause of death.


Or so you thought...


I've already explained the variance on starvation in terms of what percentage of total nutrients are being denied. What you are calling "fatal starvation" is probably something called protein energy malnutrition, the deadliest form of malnutrition. Again, the term "starvation" would not be used as a cause of death. The CDC would cite malnourishment, which is why I linked to that WHO report on deaths related to malnutrition.


According to that same organization, in 2019, 0.9 out of every 100,000 people in America have died of causes related to malnutrition, otherwise known as a "lack of food" or starvation.

So let's do math... US population (328 million) / 100,000 = 3,280 Americans. Maybe your search is too narrow.


No... starvation rates in the United States are generally not recorded because starvation is not an immediate cause of death. Other terms are used instead, such as malnutrition.

And though, protein energy malnutrition is infrequent in the U.S. (for reasons that I have already explained) other forms of starvation, such as a deficiency in iron or potassium, can also lead to immediate causes of death. Americans living in poverty get a double whammy... not only is the diet they can afford deficient in nutrients it's overflowing in sugar and



I would hope not. *Most* people in America adds up to about 165 million. It seems we don't have a consensus on the actual number yet... you said the WHO reported 120 in 2014... the WHO report from 2019 says about 3,280. That's quite a difference.


They help, but obviously it's not enough. Otherwise, there would be no issues with malnutrition.


Yeah, see?


Where's the evidence?


[/quote]
That's not evidence, that just some internet users opinion which you are using instead of forming your own arguments.

The fact is, in America, poverty limits the kind of food available and that can cause a form of starvation when essential nutrients are denied... THAT can lead to complications that in turn lead to death, as was the case with the 3,280 Americans that died from malnutrition in 2019.

What sets America apart is that our kids get a double whammy because cheap processed American food is SOOOO bad for human consumption. So kids eating cheap calories are not only starving themselves of nutrients but they are simultaneously being poisoned.

One sure sign was soon after NAFTA was originally established and millions of people in Mexico, having being exposed to American food, started to get sick. In Europe citizens begged their governments to block imports of chicken from the U.S. because of how American industry processes food.

Weewillynobeerspilly Loc: North central Texas

Meh'.......... you've never seen me condone or promote the narrative you think i follow.

I stand behind my opinion as i stated it.... sir.

Sorry for my long ass delay....... but this place has lost its shine and doesn't deserve much attention. ...thats on me.

You have good one SU....Always a pleasure seeing your feedback upon my idiocy behave, see ya ???? About then.

Weewillynobeerspilly Loc: North central Texas

It's all good Tip......... made bail

American Vet

You have helped. You just pointed out, as I noted earlier, there appears to be no accurate numbers on children's death by starvation.

straightUp Loc: California

Not if you're literally using "starvation" as your only search argument against official records. That's like using bait that fish don't like and concluding there are no fish in the lake.

For those using search arguments that match the terms official records actually use, like "malnutrition", the numbers are there. Roughly 3,280 Americans per year are reported to have died from malnutrition which is always a result of some level of starvation. So, it seems to be a matter of how much a person really wants to know, versus what a person want's to obscure.

I suppose you won't agree but the abundance of data on malnutrition compels me to suggest that now is a time to expand our field of view on the issue of starvation not narrow it down in an effort to convince ourselves we don't have a problem, especially if the only trade off is a preserved sense of national p***e.

Maybe it's my sense of priority. I would gladly burn a f**g if that's what I had to do to feed a starving kid.

American Vet

Which is EXACTLY what I stated in my initial post.

There apparently are no accurate numbers: I invited you to provide some but you were unable to do so. You just keep dancing off on tangents - stay focused.