Rose42

The Jews rejected the Messiah. Because of that their discernment on various matters is flawed. That is simply how it is.

Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon

We all have an opinion on it. Can you show me in the Tanakh where the Jews rejected "their" messiah.?

Rose42

Isaiah 53 But they reject that of course. They expected something different so in their eyes when Jesus didn’t deliver the religious leaders had him killed

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

How can the Jews reject someone who in their eyes hasn't arrived yet?

But they'll be fooled when they think he arrives and it will be costly until they realize their error.

Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon

I don't say that Judah has rejected their messiah, but most definitely that's a strong Christian belief.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

An OT prophecy that was fulfilled by Jesus Christ in the NT:

Psalm 22
Psalm 22 is one of those prophetic psalms which stands out probably among all of the Messianic psalms. This psalm is a psalm of David, and it is a very graphic description of death by crucifixion. Now, at the time that David wrote this, stoning was the method of capital punishment. Actually, it was almost 1000 years later that crucifixion was introduced by the Romans as a form of capital punishment. So that David would describe death by crucifixion is sort of a miracle in itself, and yet, inspired by the Holy Spirit, he wrote graphically of the death of Jesus Christ. The very first phrase of this psalm was quoted by Jesus on the cross. As Jesus cried out:

My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Psa 22:1)

In that cry of Jesus from the cross, we understand more completely the agony in the garden, as He was seeking to, if possible, escape the cross. For in the garden, we read that He was praying, "Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Nevertheless, not My will, Thy will be done" (Matthew 26:39). And that thrice repeated prayer in the garden, sweating as it were great drops of blood to the ground. The agony of Christ in the garden is explained of the cry of Christ on the cross, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" But He was forsaken of God for a moment. And the reason for His being forsaken is given to us in this psalm in verse 3. But He was forsaken by God for a moment in order that you would not have to be forsaken by God eternally. He was forsaken by God when God placed upon Him the iniquities of us all. He bore the penalty of our sin.

You see, sin always results in separation from God. God said to Adam, "In the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). Talking about spiritual death, where man's spirit is separated from God. Now when the Bible talks about death, as a general rule, it is talking about spiritual death which is the separation of a man's soul and spirit from God. We talk about death when a man's soul and spirit are separated from his body, but you may be walking around, all of your body motor functions working, and seem to be very much alive, but God looks at you and says, "Hey, you're dead." Your soul and spirit are separated from God; your spirit is dead. "You," Paul said, "hath He made alive who were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1).

So here we see when Jesus took upon Himself all of our sin, because sin does separate from God, as Isaiah the prophet said in chapter 59, "God's hand is not short that He cannot save, neither is His ear heavy that He cannot hear, but your sins have separated you from God." Always the result or the effect of sin. So when God laid on Him the iniquities of us all. The cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? O my God, I cry in the daytime, and thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent (Psa 22:2).

Remember that darkness covered the land, and so crying in the day, crying in the night, the darkness. But the reason why the separation, forsaken:

But thou art holy, O thou that inhabits the praises of Israel (Psa 22:3).

The holy God could not be in fellowship with sin. It is impossible that a holy God be one with sin. And the word fellowship means a oneness, a community, a commonness. When God placed upon Jesus the sins of us all, it brought that separation. "For Thou art holy," the reason for His being forsaken.

Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and you delivered them. They cried, and they were delivered: they trusted, and were not confounded. But I am a worm, and no man; I am a reproach of men, and despised of the people (Psa 22:4-6).

This, of course, was prophesied in Isaiah 53, how He would be despised and rejected of men. "A reproach of men, I am despised of the people."

All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake their head, saying, He trusted in the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him (Psa 22:7-8).

Remember the high priest and all when Jesus was hanging on the cross, they said, "Ha ha! He trusted in the Lord to deliver Him. Now let Him come down if He is truly the Messiah, and we will worship Him." All of these things.

But thou art he that took me out the womb: you did make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly (Psa 22:9-10).

Now, again, where does consciousness, or where does life begin? If there is indeed something within the plants of some form of primitive understanding, or maybe it is highly sophisticated, more highly than we are. Who knows? They have found that there is quite a consciousness of the child in the fetal state. That from the tenth week or so, about the twelfth week the child begins to have very normal functions, sleeping, the awake times. If the mother yells, it might wake up the child. Runs down the stairs. And at that point it begins to recognize the mother's voice, and that is why the child is always more comfortable with the mother than even with the grandmother when it is first born. Because it is used to the mother's voice; it has been hearing it for sixth months. After the third month the child begins to hear the mother's voice. "Thou art my God from my mother's belly." And so it speaks really of an awareness, a consciousness. "You did make me hope when I was upon my mother's breast."

Be not far from me; for my trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have compassed me: the strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion (Psa 22:11-13).

Now, again, descriptive of the cross:

I am poured out like water (Psa 22:14),

Remember when they thrust the spear in His side, there came forth blood and water.

all my bones are out of joint (Psa 22:14):

One of the things that takes place during crucifixion, as a person is hanging there, and usually held there by the spikes, your muscles after awhile begin to fatigue and give way. And when your muscles give way, your body begins to drop and actually the joints, because the muscles have fatigued, the joints begin... your body begins to fall out of joint, actually, from the hanging there. And this description of all my bones are out of joint, of course, the excruciating pain of the joints loosening, often killed the prisoner.

my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue (Psa 22:14-15)

That thirst, that horrible thirst that you receive when you are hanging there, and through the sweat your body liquids are dissipated. Then you get that horrible thirst, the dry mouth, the cotton taste.

my tongue cleaves to my jaws; for thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet (Psa 22:15-16).

Now, the Jehovah Witnesses seek to teach us that Jesus was crucified on a pole, that the cross is actually the pagan Tou symbol, and so the church is actually worshipping a pagan symbol. They tell this to all of their poor deceived people. And they then quote from a sixteenth century book and show them the pictures of this sixteenth century book written by a monk in which he describes the struttural, the pole, and the many methods of crucifixion of the Roman government. And he shows the picture of this man who is crucified on a pole, his hands above his head, one spike through his hands, and then, of course, the one spike through his feet. And they say that the church, in picturing Christ on a t-shaped cross, actually the pagan symbol Tou, and the whole church is following Babylonian paganism and so forth; the whole church is Babylon. We are the only ones that tell you the truth. And they deceive the people. It is interesting that in the New Testament it speaks about the nails, plural, in His hands. The nails, plural, in His hands.

"They pierced My hands and My feet." What the Jehovah Witnesses didn't tell the people is that this same sixteenth century author and the book that they take the picture from, and they quote him, supposedly translating the Latin that is there, they don't tell the people that they have mistranslated the Latin that is there, and on two pages further on the book, he has the t-shaped cross. And he says this no doubt is the kind of the cross that Jesus was crucified on, because it refers to their nailing the nails through His hands and His feet. And they don't tell the people that they have deceived them. They have taken one page of the book, mistranslated the Latin from it, and a couple of pages later, the same author in the same book shows the type the cross that we usually think of when we think of the cross, and says "This no doubt is the shape of the cross that Jesus was crucified on." But that's what I say, they are... I feel sorry for the people that are deceived. It is the leaders in New York that are going to have to really answer to God for the deception of these poor people around the United States, keeping them in deception and darkness. My heart goes out to them.

I may tell all my bones: for they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture (Psa 22:17-18).

Now you remember when Jesus was crucified, they tore His garment, divided it into four, but with the coat they said, "Oh this coat is nice. It been woven all the way from the top to the bottom without any seam. Let's not tear it; let's cast lots to see whose this will be." So here it was prophesied. Now Schoenfield, who is called a scholar by many of those men who like to pat each other on the back and tell each other how brilliant they are, declared that the whole Passover, crucifixion of Jesus was a gigantic plot that Jesus set up. And that the disciples had spiked the vinegar that they finally put to His lips, to put Him in a swoon so that they would think that He was dead. And that after they had buried Him, of course, the disciples came and whisked Him away. And it was just all a big plot, and Jesus set the whole thing up. He deliberately angered them. He deliberately set the whole thing up so that He actually plotted the whole crucifixion and everything else. And it was just a big, gigantic plot of Jesus. Well, it was very ingenious of Jesus to somehow get the soldiers to go along with the plot and not to tear His robe, but to cast lots for it. That was very clever of Him indeed. And even to get the high priest to go along and say, "Oh, He saved others, Himself He cannot save. If He is the Son of God, then let Him come down. He said He delights in Him, okay, if God wants Him then let Him save Him." Schoenfield just turns out to be a liar like so many others and his book of fraud. And it turns out that Schoenfield's book is the fraud, not Jesus. As is always the case.

But in one sense, of course, it was a plot, and Jesus was a part of the plot. It was a plot that was hatched by God before the foundations of the earth. For Christ was crucified before the foundations of the earth. "You, according to God's predetermined council and foreknowledge, with your wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). You see, when Peter talks about the cross, he talks about prophecy, the foreknowledge of God. Yes, it was a plot. God plotted it a long time ago, and Jesus carried it out. But it is your salvation and it is my salvation.

But be not far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorn (Psa 22:19-21).

Now on the altars they had on each corner of an altar a horn, a single horn going up as the horn of a unicorn. And when they were really desperate and really wanting to cry out unto God, they go unto the altar and they'd grab hold of the horns of this unicorn. You remember when Joab, the general of David was... after David, when he was dying he said to Solomon, "Now Joab has spilt so much blood, now take care of him. Don't let his old gray head go down to the grave in peace." And so when Solomon was doing the cleanup for David, after David's death, he ordered them to bring Joab, because of all of the innocent blood that he had shed, in order that he might give his life. And Joab ran into the altar and he grabbed hold of the horns of the altar. And the guy came back and said, "He is holding on to the horns of the altar." Well, when they were really desperate they would run in and grab hold of the horns of the altar, and there they would pray and intercede unto God. And so here it speaks of that kind of intercession from the horns of the unicorn.

I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee. Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard (Psa 22:22-24).

God heard Jesus when He cried.

My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: and shall praise the LORD. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the LORD (Psa 22:25-27):

Now the salvation that went out to the Gentiles is predicted.

with all the families of the nations they'll worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations. And all they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him (Psa 22:27-29):

So the intimation of the resurrection. "Even those that have gone down into the dust of the earth, shall bow before Him." In Philippians we read, "God has given Him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow," every knee shall bow, "and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord to the glory of God the Father." So God has given to Him the kingdom. The kingdom is the Lord's. He is the governor.

and all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: none can keep his own soul alive. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the LORD for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this (Psa 22:29-31).

And so the gospel has come to us, of the glorious work of Jesus Christ in His death for our sins. The fulfillment of Psalm 22.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

"Their" messiah hasn't come yet. But when "he" does they'll fall for a false one until the veil is lifted from their eyes at the abomination of desolation when their "messiah" claims to be God and demands to be worshiped and they realize he isn't.

Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon

But you say that your messiah is God.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

Yes He is.

Rose42

“The” Messiah. Its irrelevant if one believes He is God or not to the fact that He came and was rejected.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

Psalm 69
Psalm 69 is a Messianic psalm of prophecy concerning Jesus Christ. And there are many scriptures within the psalm here that make reference to Jesus Christ.

Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul. I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. I am weary of my crying: my throat is dried: mine eyes fail while I wait for God. They that hate me without cause are more than the hairs of my head: they that would destroy me, being my enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restore that which I took not away. O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee. Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord God of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel. Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face (Psa 69:1-7).

Again, referring to Christ. For God's sake He bore the reproach; shame covered His face.

I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children (Psa 69:8).

It said that His brothers did not believe in Him. They thought that He was crazy, actually.

For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me (Psa 69:9).

Remember when Jesus went into the temple and He saw them making merchandise, and He took and He made a scourge, a whip, and He began to drive out the moneychangers and those that were selling doves. And He said, "Get out of here! You've made my Father's house a den of thieves." And then they remembered the scripture that was written of Him that said, "The zeal of Thine house hath eaten Me up." The zeal for the house of God, it just ate Him up when He saw the terrible things that were being done in the house of God in the name of God. I wonder what would be His reaction today if He should come and visit some of the bingo parties and other functions that have been devised to make money for the church.

When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting, that was to my reproach. I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them. They that sit in the gate speak against me; and I was the song of drunkards (Psa 69:10-12).

He is still the song of drunkards. The blasphemy when a person becomes intoxicated so often.

But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation (Psa 69:13).

Some believe that this is actually the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not sink: let me be delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep waters (Psa 69:14).

You remember He said, "If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me."

Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me. Hear me, O LORD; for thy loving-kindness is good: turn unto me according to the multitude of thy tender mercies. And hide not thy face from thy servant; for I am in trouble: hear me speedily. Draw nigh unto my soul, and redeem it: deliver me because of mine enemies. For thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonor: mine adversaries are all before thee. Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness (Psa 69:15-20):

The fact that when Jesus was pierced with a sword there came forth blood and water indicates that actually His death was by a heart rupture. They broke, "Reproach," he said, "hath broken my heart. I am full of heaviness." Also there is something to that bloody sweat that indicates much the same.

and I looked for some to take pity (Psa 69:20),

You remember in the Garden of Gethsemane, and in great heaviness, He sweat as it were, great drops of blood flowing to the ground. "And I looked for some to take pity." You remember He came back to His disciples, but they were sleeping. "I looked for some to take pity,"

but there was none; for comforters, I found none (Psa 69:20).

"Oh Peter, could you not watch with Me one hour? Watch and pray." "I looked for someone to have pity. I looked for comforters, but I found none."

They gave me gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink (Psa 69:21).

You remember that when Jesus cried, "I thirst," someone took a sponge and filled it with vinegar and put it to His lips.

Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap (Psa 69:22).

Paul quotes this in Romans, the eleventh chapter, concerning Israel.

Let their eyes become darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake (Psa 69:23).

The judgment that should come upon the Jews for the rejection of Jesus.

Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. Let their habitation be desolate (Psa 69:24-25);

Now in the first chapter of Acts, Peter quotes this as referring to Judas Iscariot. And he puts it together with another psalm, "Let their habitation be desolate and let another take his bishopric." And so, this is quoted concerning Judas Iscariot by Peter in Acts, chapter 1.

and let none dwell in their tents. For they persecute him whom you have smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom you have wounded. Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high. I will praise the name of God with a song, and I will magnify him with thanksgiving. This also shall please the LORD better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs. The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God. For the LORD heareth the poor, and despise not the prisoners. Let the heaven and the earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that moves therein. For God will save Zion, and build the cities of Judah: that they may dwell there, and have it in possession. The seed also of his servants shall inherit it: and they that love his name shall dwell therein (Psa 69:25-36).

Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon

There is one verse difference between the Hebrew Bible and the Greco/Roman.

In the Jewish bible it's 17 and in the Christian Bible it's verse 16.

To understand the brazen manner in which Christiandom tampered with the Jewish scriptures, let's examine the verse that you insist "proves" that Jesus is the messiah.
Psalm 22:16 in the king James version reads,

Dogs have compasses me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet.

Understandably , Christians are confident that this passage contains a clear reference to Jesus' crucifixion. ''Of whom other than Jesus could the Psalmist be speaking''? missionaries ask.

They insist that the Bible could not be referring to any other person in history but the savior who bore the marks of the Cross.

Paradoxically , well-educated Jews are utterly repelled by the manner in which the church rendered the words of Psalm 22:17

To understand how Christian translators rewrote the words of King David, let's examine the original Hebrew words of this verse with a proper translation.

Correct translation....For dogs have compassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

KJV...For dogs have compassed me, the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet.

I recall you not preferring the KJV, so you can compare with whatever Christian translation that suits you.

Notice that the English translation from the original Hebrew does not contain the word "pierced" The king James version deliberately mistranslated the Hebrew word kaari as "pierced" rather than "like a lion" thereby drawing the reader to a false conclusion that this Psalm is describing the Crucifixion.
The Hebrew word kaari does not mean pierced but plainly means "like a lion" The end of Psalm 22:17 , therefore, properly reads "like a lion they are at my hands and feet" Had king David wished to write the word "pierced" he would never have used kaari. Instead he would have written either daqar or ratza which are common words in the Hebrew scriptures.

These common words mean to "stab" or "pierce" Needless to say, the phrase " they pierced my hands and my feet" is a not too-ingenious Christian contrivance that appears nowhere in the Tanach.

Bear in mind, this stunning mistranslation in the 22nd Psalm was not born out of ignorance.

Christian translators were well aware of the correct meaning of this simple Hebrew word kaari and deliberately twisted their translations of this text.

The word kaari can be found in many other places in the Jewish scriptures and they correctly translated "like a lion" in all places in Christian Bibles where this word appears with the exception of Psalm 22 the Church's "Crucifixion Psalm"

King David, the author of Psalm 22, identifies his enemies as "lions" that immediately precede and follow psalm 22:17.

Psalm 22:12-13..Many bulls have compassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13..They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and roaring lion.

Psalm 22:20-21...Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21.Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon

A student of the Bible would automatically think that if the Jews were going to reject the very messiah that they were waiting on, that would have been a well known prophecy.

Rose42

And it was. Of course they deny it - since they rejected him it would make no sense for them to admit it.

Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon

Could you provide a Hebrew scripture that says that.