olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Seems you do not understand the topic of discussion. It is not how man finds salvation today, it is the plan of God to keep the OT Saint saved from hell until the blood of Christ was shed so it could be spread upon them.
All the scriptures you posted from Paul were after the cross, doctrinally directed to folks in this Age of Grace.
You might note in Eph 2:8 Paul says "ye" meaning his ministry NOT everyone in the Bible.

You, as with all fundamentalist no matter which denomination, take one verse and brand it as "the fundamental of the faith". The Catholic fundamentalist find theirs in Matthew and Hebrews, the Church of Christ hang their hat on Acts 2:8, and the Baptist Eph 2:8. All these verse do contain instructions from God, but we must discern to whom God applies the doctrine, not make the application to our own liking.

God says He will deal with different groups differently and so should we!

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 3:30 KJV

But of course before one can begin to grasp the meaning of God in Rom 3:30 one must understand the two different faiths at work today, man's personal faith and the Faith of Christ. This very, very important doctrine is hid in all modern versions most likely because they all have manuscripts passed down through and massaged by the catholic church in their history.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 - KJV

Also the fundamentalist totally neglects a full body of scripture because it does not agree with their PRIVATE theology as examples below:

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Ezekiel 18:26-27 KJV

In order to prove your position you must show:
Abraham or any other OT Saint being indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are.
Abraham or any other OT Saint being placed in Christ as we are.
Abraham or any other OT Saint being covered by the preciously shed blood of Christ before it was physically shed at CALVARY!
Abraham going straight to the Throne of God upon his physical death as we do. Check out Luke 16 where we find Abraham within shooting distance of hell itself.

For the life of me I cannot understand how someone can spread the blood of Christ before it was shed when God Himself DOES NOT!

This discussion might prove far more productive if you would simply address the issues above otherwise we might suppose you really have no understanding of what full and complete salvation to the Throne entails.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:3 -KJV

Please note in the above the simple word "how", I realize it is not in the man written commentary you follow; but it carries great importance.
Our Lord Jesus Christ bled to death so the blood of God could be spread upon all men.
Where do you find the power or permission to spread this precious blood before it was shed?

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Zemirah "Your length of time on the internet (thirty years ago) precedes Windows 95, which first made actual web surfing thinkable, IMHO, unless it was through the military."
I do apologize for the misprint of 30 rather than over 20. Those 2's and 3's are pretty close to each other.
Again I apologize for the time and effort you spent straining at the gnat of misprint while swallowing the camel of fundamentalism.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

My understanding is intact, Oleg.

Your discussion is with yourself.

Your standard "brainwashed" response to all responses and queries is nonproductive.

Assigning me or anyone else as a stereotypical "fundamentalist" is intellectually dishonest.

I am a Bible Believing, Born-again Evangelical Christian.
Being fundamental in clinging to literal Bible Truths is a plus for all believers, however.

Your own machinations more closely adhere to the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist "King James Only" criteria than any living example I've seen displayed.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/machinations
plural noun - You use machinations to describe secret and complicated plans, especially to gain power.

The King James Bible was commissioned by the Church of England to compete with the popular Geneva Bible, and is one of five English language Bibles produced by 1611.

In the 1550's, the Church at Geneva, Switzerland, was very sympathetic to the reformer refugees from England, and was one of only a few safe havens for a desperate people. Many of them met in Geneva, led by Myles Coverdale and John Foxe (publisher of the famous Foxe's Book of Martyrs, which is to this day the only exhaustive reference work on the persecution and martyrdom of Early Christians and Protestants from the first century up to the mid-16th century), as well as Thomas Sampson and William Whittingham.

There, with the protection of theologian John Calvin and John Knox, the Reformer of the Scottish Church, the Church of Geneva determined to produce a Bible that would educate their families while they continued in exile.

The Geneva Bible was the first Bible to add numbered verses to the chapters, so that referencing specific passages would be easier. Every chapter was also accompanied by extensive marginal notes and references so thorough and complete that the Geneva Bible is also considered the first English "Study Bible."

William Shakespeare quotes hundreds of times in his plays from the Geneva translation of the Bible. The Geneva Bible became the Bible of choice for over 100 years of English speaking Christians. Between 1560 and 1644 at least 144 editions of this Bible were published. Examination of the 1611 King James Bible shows clearly that its translators were influenced much more by the Geneva Bible, than by any other source.

The Geneva Bible retains over 90% of William Tyndale's original English translation. The Geneva Bible remained more popular than the King James Version until decades after its original release in 1611! The Geneva holds the honor of being the first Bible taken to America, and the Bible of the Puritans and Pilgrims. It is truly the “Bible of the Protestant Reformation.”

The King James printed Bible is no more "perfect" than any other version of God's Holy Word.
A typographical discrepancy in the 1st printing of the King James printing of Ruth 3:15 rendered a pronoun "He" instead of "She" in that verse in some printings. This caused some of the 1611 First Editions to be known by collectors as "He" Bibles, and others as "She" Bibles. Starting just one year after the huge 1611 pulpit-size King James Bibles were printed and chained to every church pulpit in England.

The Anglican Church’s King James Bible took decades to overcome the more popular Protestant Church’s Geneva Bible. One of the greatest ironies of history, is that many Protestant Christian churches today embrace the King James Bible exclusively as the “only” legitimate English language translation… yet it is not even a Protestant translation!

It was printed to compete with the Protestant Geneva Bible, by authorities who throughout most of history were hostile to Protestants… and killed them. While many Protestants are quick to assign the full blame of persecution to the Roman Catholic Church, even after England broke from Roman Catholicism in the 1500’s, the Church of England (The Anglican Church) continued to persecute Protestants throughout the 1600’s.

Throughout the 1600’s, as the Puritans and the Pilgrims fled the religious persecution of England to cross the Atlantic and start a new free nation in America, they took with them their prized Geneva Bible, and rejected the King’s Bible. America was founded upon the Geneva Bible, not the King James Bible

The OT saints were saved the same way the New Testament saints were/are saved, by faith.

For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,
6just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered.
8“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account” (Rom. 4:3-8).

The Bible tells us that Abraham was justified by faith (see Rom. 5:1 and Eph. 2:8-9). That is, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, v. 4 above. They were saved by faith in the Messiah in whom they were trusting. Only, for them, it was a trust in the future Messiah God was providing. They knew He was coming as had been prophesied.

Also, the Holy Spirit was there in the Old Testament. Consider David's plea to God in Psalm 51:11, “Do not cast me away from Thy presence, And do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me.”

God did not change how He saved people in the New Testament. It has always been by faith. In the case of God's Old Testament people, they looked ahead in time to the Messiah (Isaiah 53). Since Calvary, they all look back to Him and see the cross.

Both Old Testament and New Testament Believers are saved by the same Savior, Jesus Christ. That is the message.

If you wish to argue, do so with God.

That's all.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

So are you saying you do not take Eph 2:8 as a "fundamental" of the faith and proceed to apply it to every individual in scripture?
I am glad to hear this for I have assumed you meant it when you say everyone is saved to Heaven just as we are today.

You say you have understanding (catholic apologist make the same claim, see Eze 14) and are a Bible believer.
Ok, l will make this as simple as possible for you. If Abraham was saved just like us, why did he NOT go straight to Heaven upon his physical death?
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Luke 16:22-25 - NIV

Do you honestly believe hades was within shouting distance to the Throne of God?
Are these your true colors? I'm having great difficulty in zeroing in on what it is you do believe.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Angels on the head of a pin!

It is such a delight, Oleg, to review your posts critiquing my posts.

Everyone needs an reverberating echo, which consistently obscures everything stated.

By repeatedly stating what I meant (in your opinion), alternating it with then asking me what I meant, - followed immediately by exclaiming how glad you are to hear this is what I meant, when, in actuality you are merely affirming your own opinion of what I meant, without having subsequently heard from me, and repeating it as if I had agreed with you, is a true delight to observe, for it is obviously quite a practiced technique on your part.

Lots of luck with that. It will never elicit the desired response.

You have repeatedly demonstrated that you feel entitled to demand the denominational background, Christian credentials, and academic education of your fellow posters to this section... the place to begin with that is by stating your own.

God did not issue copyrights on the words inspired by the Holy Spirit to any Apostle, including Paul.

Again, Paul did not state he was giving a mystery of God for the very first time, by announcing he was one of the prophets and apostles to receive such grace, but that he was now appointed to be a witness to the Gentiles, nor did he preclude our Lord, Jesus Christ touching on the mystery of the Rapture in Matthew 24.

Now, do sidetrack that in your usual inimical fashion... it is a really strange thing about which to obsess.

I repeat, this in no way excluded our Lord, Jesus Christ from discussing anything He chose to discuss in His ministry to the Jews in Matthew.

O.K. Oleg, now you choose to delve into the minutia of "How many angels actually do dance upon the head of a pin?"

Jesus taught important spiritual truths with His parables. Do you believe He was giving you the literal distance between heaven and hades?

As for your reference to, and I quote you, "catholic apologists..."

The word catholic apologists, catholic with a lower case "c" refers to all apologists, i.e., "universal" apologists.

Do you mean Roman Catholic, Catholic with an upper case "C?" apologists?

There is a rather profound difference in meaning.

The points you believe you are making are obtuse.

In the future, when or if you continue to misquote what I have said, expect to be routinely corrected.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Zemirah "I repeat, this in no way excluded our Lord, Jesus Christ from discussing anything He chose to discuss in His ministry to the Jews in Matthew."
I totally agree, but's that's not the issue. The issue is that you cannot say anything you wish about what Jesus did say. Our thoughts and impressions of one passage must totally agree with all other passages.
I can see your firmly planted in stone that Paul was indeed lying when he proclaimed first mention of the Rapture of the Church.
Perhaps you also believe we must all endure to the end while disregarding what Paul had to say about OSAS.
We know very little of what Paul did say that you find pleasing.

Zemirah "The word catholic apologists, catholic with a lower case "c" refers to all apologists, i.e., "universal" apologists."
Awh once again that gnat camel thing. Must you always dwell on the trivial while overlooking the major?
It has been my experience that all Christian apologists use their chosen parts of scripture to prove their chosen theology. Even you.

It's proving very difficult to keep you on topic. Could you suspend the dazzle machine long enough to actually discuss our topics?

Zemirah "In the future, when or if you continue to misquote what I have said, expect to be routinely corrected."
Ok, I'll do my best not to give occasion to received another rap on the nuckles from your school master ruler.

If I'm not mistaken you have said Abraham was saved just like us. I'm assuming you are referring to the Abraham of Gen 17:5 and Luke 16:23? ....... Ok, just wanted to be sure we're on the same page.

Please tell us in 100,000 words or less why Abraham did not go to Heaven upon his physical death.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

This morning I opened the online Bible and it opened to Rom 8:1. After reading it and then comparing the writing in various versions it dawned on me why many scholars are confused. They seem to all use one modern version or the other, but in doing so they miss out on an important teaching from the Lord through Paul.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 KJV

The above is saying there is now no condemnation to those who find their doctrinal teaching from the Lord Jesus Christ through Paul given to Paul through the Spirit and no longer follow the doctrines of Jesus given in the flesh.
The reason modern scholars miss this truth is because it is not in their versions:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1 ESV
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus. Romans 8:1 ISV
Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1 NASB
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:1 NIV

Basically the reading of modern versions cheat them of the teaching of this most important concept that we no longer follow Jesus in the flesh but now in the Spirit.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Corinthians 5:16 -KJV

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Of Abraham, I said, he is saved through his faith in the same Savior by whom we are saved.

I did not define where, when or why his soul and/or his body went to either temporary or permanent abodes.

The mythological topics to which you now wish to adhere remain undefined.

You "stick" to whatever topics you believe are in evidence; this is your thread. Do with it what you will.

I did not say Paul was lying. I said you are misrepresenting (hopefully in a condition of confusion, not willful lying) what Paul said.

Again, Oleg, you have attributed to me words that I did not say, words about the Apostle Paul, in fact, that would never have entered my mind.

I cannot proceed to the inherent Biblical theology when you consistently misrepresent everything I say.

Paul had become an expert Academic in ancient Jewish Law, under the tutorage of Gamaliel, a leading authority in the 1st century Sanhedrin, preparing him to fulfill the mission to which Jesus appointed him.

The Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel of the Lord Jesus Christ, who became through the power of the Holy Spirit, an Evangelist to the Gentiles in the 1st century, and the author of 28% of the New Testament, which has been a blessing to the entire world for the last two thousand years.

It is pointless to converse with an individual who unjustifiably labels another forum member a prevaricator. Such behavior is unethical and smacks of desperation.

Your pretentious use of the royal "we" is duly noted and enthusiastically rejected.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Zemirah ".Of Abraham, I said, he is saved through his faith in the same Savior by whom we are saved.
I did not define where, when or why his soul and/or his body went to either temporary or permanent abodes.
The mythological topics to which you now wish to adhere remain undefined."

Your correct you said nothing of Abraham's soul or body, but you have said he was saved just like us.
I must have made the mistake of our (us/we) thoughts on salvation might be the same, but I see they are not.
You say Abraham was saved through his faith, to which I agree (Rom 3:30) he was certainly saved from hell through his personal faith. However the Bible says today the uncircumcised (we) are saved BY the Faith of Christ.
You say Abraham had personal faith so I assume he showed it by his works when he changed countries and offered up Issac as the Bible says.
You say he went to some mythical place which the Bible places within shouting distance of hell.
Not knowing your beliefs of how we are saved, and just based on what you have said; I'm assuming you are Roman Catholic and have placed Abraham in purgatory.

Zemirah "I did not say Paul was lying. I said you are misrepresenting (hopefully in a condition of confusion, not willful lying) what Paul said."
No I'm not misrepresenting just concluding from your statements.
Paul defined mystery as something never before revealed, then he described the Rapture of the Church as a mystery.
However you say Jesus spoke of the Rapture of the Church several years before Paul did.
What other conclusion can one draw other than you feel Paul was not being truthful?

Zemirah "I cannot proceed to the inherent Biblical theology when you consistently misrepresent everything I say."
Surely you know by now the scholars' union inherent theology matters little to me. I am much more interested in the plain reading of the inspired word of God we have today in English.
If the scholars' union inherent theology disagrees with the Word, I'm callin' em out.

Zemirah "It is pointless to converse with an individual who unjustifiably labels another forum member a prevaricator. Such behavior is unethical and smacks of desperation."
I have addressed this above, what conclusion would you have us draw?
Of course there is always the opinion of admitting to your error and admit how your words would bring on said conclusion, and seek out what Jesus might really be teaching in John 14.

Zemirah "Your pretentious use of the royal "we" is duly noted and enthusiastically rejected."
Please forgive me, I thought this an open forum, open to all readers. Are we having a private conversation?

One never knows who is listening. We should always mark our words well. We don't want them repeating false doctrine which might stand against them negatively at the Judgement Seat as they will the speaker.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

When God divided human language into thousands of different languages at the Tower of Babel, He created those languages, and He expects us to take the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the speakers of all those languages, not to become fixated on one version of the Bible in one of those languages, to the exclusion of all others.

I know where the souls of the "saved through faith" Old Testament saints are (Daniel chp. 11, 12; Isaiah chp. 27, 28, 29) but before you can intelligently discuss theological belief, you need to stop worshiping the King James Bible.

I'm very familiar with the KJV, having first read the King James Bible through in its entirety at the age of nine. It has the same message from the same God as does the NAS, the CSB, the ESV, the NKJV, and, yes, the NIV.

Your fixation on the KJV is reminiscent of Charismatics believing they have "slain their washing machine in the spirit..."

When Paul said "ye"?? That is not a theological discovery of purism, Oleg.

Nor does the word "how" add any dimension that the other Bibles preclude.

You are creating your own form of Gnosticism.

Also, your straw dog, the "scholars union" does not exist.

This is your hill to die on.

Jesus shed His blood because "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin."

Hebrews 9:22 "In fact under the Law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness [neither release from sin and its guilt, nor cancellation of the merited punishment]."

Paul didn't say "ye." "Ye" is an English translation. Paul didn't speak in English.

It is now "You," not "ye" in newer versions, exactly the same meaning, but language changes with time.

Paul spoke in Greek to the Gentiles, and the New Testament was written in Greek in the 1st century, which was translated into Latin 400 years later by Jerome, and translated from Latin into English in the 14th century by John Wycliffe.

The King James Bible, in the 17th century, was not even an original translation from the Greek and Hebrew, as are most of the newer Bibles you label "modern." It was the 5th English translation, and copied from portions of each of the preceding English Bibles.

The King James was copied principally from the Wycliffe Bible and the Geneva Bible, which were copied from the Greek and Hebrew, via the Latin. It is the Word of God just as the modern versions are because they are all copies of translations from the original Greek and Hebrew, which were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

It was also compiled by a committee of men just as the Bibles both before and since have been, so the actual physical pages, cover, and the printing type of the KJV is just as "manmade."

There is no difference, except the newer Bibles had access to older Greek and Hebrew manuscripts found in the centuries since the King James was created... They are more trustworthy.

Ezekiel 14th chapter is a perfect description of the idolatry you display toward the King James Bible.

Jesus gave us a Great Commission. It is NOT "Go ye into all the world and preach the King James Bible."

Jesus' shed blood paid in full the sin debt of everyone who believes the gospel and accepts that precious gift. It does not cover the sin debt, which is death, of any one who refuses to believe and accept.

God said Abraham was saved by faith; He needs no permission from anyone to do so.

Purgatory does not exist, other than in Persian Zoroastrianism and Manichaean. It is claimed, but unfounded, that a reference to soldiers praying for their dead in the uncanonized Apocrypha book of 2 Maccabees validates its existence. The Apocrypha is not authentic Scripture, so that would not grant it biblical authority. The Bible does not teach purgatory.

There are no denominations in the Bible. They are forbidden. Your hangup with them is unfortunate.

Christianity is One Body of Christ. There are not two types of Christians. You either are or you aren't.

Believing Christians should unite only under the name of Christ. Christ has no loyalty to a denomination. Christians need no hierarchies. Christ is the only Head of His church (Ephesians 1:22-23).

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Zemirah "God said Abraham was saved by faith; He needs no permission from anyone to do so."

Now, now Zemirah we can't form a theology around one chosen thought. We must consider the WHOLE council of God whether you agree with it or not.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20 KJV

Before making statements concerning Abraham's method of salvation God's word should be taken in it's entirety.

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Hebrews 11:8 KJV

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Hebrews 11:17 KJV

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:21 KJV

You simply cannot disregard everything God said of Abraham's method of salvation without disrespecting God Himself.

Do you feel Abraham would have maintained his position of importance if he had not physically done the works of his instructions from God?

To prove your position that Abraham was saved "just like us" you must prove the following does not exist in scripture.

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:23 KJV

In fact you must remove the whole of Luke 16:19-31. I understand this might be easy for you since through your idol of scholarship several verses have been removed from your cherished niv, so I can understand why you feel you have license to do same, but the sad truth is those passages remain.

We still have no clear understanding of how you believe folks today are saved to compare with your statement that Abraham was saved just like us.
Was Abraham, or for that matter any OT Saint:
Indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
Placed in Christ?
Said to be in the body of Christ?

The things that make some of us Christian are only possible by the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross.
On what grounds do you supersede God in His administration of Grace by declaring these things done before the physical action of the cross?

Also please address the Num 14:30 vs Heb 3:16 conflict found in your beloved modern versions.

Yes, when I physically hold the KJB in my hands I do feel it the closest physical thing on earth to being in the presents of the Word (John 1) while recognizing other's idolize scholarship.

One more thing for thought:
Does one feel Jesus, the Word, sought to prove who He was to the unbelieving public through His heritage or through His actions?
The proof is always in the puddin'.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Zemirah let me add that you have created a dilemma which I and most probably any readers are having a hard time understanding. It goes like this:
You have stated Abraham was saved just like us, ok; so then it would follow we are saved (in your mind) just like Abraham was.
Even a babe in Christ can read Luke 16:19........ where even all us plowboys can easily see father Abraham did not go to Heaven upon his physical death.
However we (plowboys) have been taught and confirmed by our own reading that we Christians who are placed in Christ go directly to the presents of God upon our physical death and that our spirit is already seated with the Father.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:6 KJV

Therefore the above dilemma begs the question of what are the true thoughts in your mind of how we today ever attain the presence of our Lord.
Since it is your theology that we are saved just like Abraham, do you also believe we go to some "holding" station still hoping for full and complete salvation?

Surely even you can understand our dilemma.

olegig Loc: Texas panhandle

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Oleg, It is we who have changed. We are now born again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, this isn't telling us to no longer honor the Words of Jesus while He ministered 3 1/2 years here on earth.

His Words are as sacred as they were when He walked on earth. We have changed and we now recognize Him as God and the Son of God, and have the Holy Spirit to enable us to follow His example.

Your idea that we are now to ignore Jesus Words and listen only to Paul's words is a private, unsubstantiated opinion on your part, a private interpretation that ignores the rest of Scripture.

2nd Corinthians 5:16-19
"So from now on we regard no one from a human point of view [according to worldly standards and values]. Though we have known Christ from a human point of view, now we no longer know Him in this way.
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ [that is, grafted in, joined to Him by faith in Him as Savior], he is a new creature [reborn and renewed by the Holy Spirit]; the old things [the previous moral and spiritual condition] have passed away. Behold, new things have come [because spiritual awakening brings a new life].
18 But all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ [making us acceptable to Him] and gave us the ministry of reconciliation [so that by our example we might bring others to Him],
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people’s sins against them [but canceling them]. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation [that is, restoration to favor with God]."

Read in its context, Romans 8:1, in the King James does not tell us to no longer obey Jesus teachings, but only Paul.

We are now born again, into the body of Christ, are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and are therefore to walk in Him, NOT in the flesh.

We are to follow both Jesus and Paul's teachings, and all the inspired Words of all the New Testament writers.

Romans 8:1-4
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Speak for yourself, Oleg.

I'm beginning to understand you are not a plowboy, but a Showboat.

You said your "trick" is to confound others by interjecting your dispensational theory...

as if the seven manmade opinions on God's dispensational timetable was not completely understandable where it actually exists in the text, and where it is mere speculation should be tossed aside.

You keep exclaiming about a multitude of viewers; they are free to participate.
If there is anyone reading this, they are welcome to write their own opinions, comments, inquiries. That is the purpose of the forum.

I do not dwell on supposed viewers who are in a dilemma, oleg. Work your way out of it. Read the Bible for yourself, any and all versions of it. Pray to God and ask for His wisdom.

As for your understanding, Oleg. You said you don't read my entire posts, just the beginning and end. How could you possibly expect to understand anything in that manner?

You couldn't. This means you have no interest in or intention of doing so.

I have no manmade "theology." I believe God.

As for "the thoughts in my mind?" You've got to be kidding.

Are you going to now delve into psychobabble?

To understand the Bible, read it in context, not just the beginning, or just the ending, or just the middle.

Don't try to browbeat me. I don't browbeat.

Again, you are claiming I said things I didn't say.

Plow boys are saved just like anyone else, and learn to follow Jesus through prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit as they study God's Word.

Don't ever put your faith in any human teacher for your salvation.

Keep your eyes on Jesus,

however, you can enter into other's labors who have spent their lifetimes developing Biblical teaching aids... histories of Biblical times, Concordances, Handbooks, and add your knowledge to theirs, if God calls you to do so.

Don't ever let that take the place of studying God's Word for yourself.

This is my last response on this thread. Your technique is not only based on self professed "trickery," it is an exercise in futility.

...as round and round you go.