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Aug 29, 2019 16:37:46   #
bahmer
 
Parky60 wrote:
You have a short memory...I’ll repeat…

I believe you are referring to these two verses.

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. James 2:17 (NASB)
A faith without works is not real faith at all. It is only a matter of words. James is not saying that we are saved by faith plus works. To hold such a view would be to dishonor the finished work of Christ on the cross. If we were saved by faith plus works, then there would be two saviors—Jesus and ourselves. But the NT is very clear that Christ is the one and only Savior. What James is emphasizing is that we are not saved by a faith of words only but by that kind of faith which results in a life of good works. In other words, works are not the root of salvation but the fruit; they are not the cause but the effect.

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. James 2:26 (NASB)
Here the matter is summarized very beautifully. James compares faith to the human body. He likens works to the spirit. The body (faith) without the spirit (works) is lifeless, useless, valueless. So, faith without works is dead, ineffective, worthless. Obviously, it is a false faith, not genuine saving faith.

This CLEARLY summarizes that we are saved by faith alone and that works are an EVIDENCE of faith.

On last thing…here’s ANOTHER biblical support of salvation by faith alone. I’m sorry if you cannot understand this. Maybe you should go to the throne room and ask for discernment through the Holy Spirit.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)

Couldn't be plainer.
You have a short memory...I’ll repeat… br br I be... (show quote)


Amen and Amen

Reply
Aug 30, 2019 06:33:51   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
Rose42 wrote:
Its pretty simple. We are saved by faith alone and works is the fruit of that faith.


What James actually said was:

Faith + works = justification/salvation

Or, to put it more exactly to his words:
Faith in synergy with works = justification

That’s pretty simple also

It is taught in elementary school that:

2 parts hydrogen + 1 part oxygen = water

That is pretty simple also. That is what James said about faith and works producing salvation.

But you folks want us to believe:
2 parts hydrogen = water which produces 1 part oxygen

So simply (and obviously) wrong an elementary school student could understand

If our gospel be hid it is his to them that are lost

You don’t see what James is saying because you are blind to it

So simple that a child could understand

The devil takes Gods word and twists it around to mean the opposite. That is pretty simple also.

The Bible says teach no other doctrine and
Do not add to or take away from the commandments

Those are pretty simple also.

Jesus said the devil’s children do the works of the devil.

You all have simply made yourselves children of the devil, per Jesus, because the devil has been twisting the word of God to mean the opposite of what it says since the Garden of Eden

He also said you would know them by their fruits, good or evil.

It is evil to add and take away from scriptures

It is evil to negate scriptures

You all are known by your fruit.

So simple a caveman could understand it.

Reply
Aug 30, 2019 06:44:19   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Faith + works = justification/salvation

In other words: Faith in God PLUS my works = justification/salvatiion

God + me = justification/salvatiion

Now THAT'S unbiblical!!!

Reply
 
 
Aug 30, 2019 06:59:22   #
jellis50
 
Hello,
I have read portions of this thread and wanted to weigh in... first of all, I believe from the scripture if you are not truly born again, simply meaning been filled with the Holy Spirit, you may be blinded by false doctrine. The Spirit will lead you into all truth.

I glanced over Mr. Raddatz postings and I will have to say I am impressed by his lengthy writings and do not have enough time to read all of it. I am of the opinion that those in this thread are not reading the actual scriptures and rightly dividing the word.

He has laid out the plan of salvation starting from the Old Testament right into the New Testament. The other posts are taking scriptures out context or simply not seeing the entire picture or wanting to reconcile what Mr. Raddatz has posted and their own verses. Please take a moment and ask yourselves, "am I rightly dividing the word"?

“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth.”

The Bible can prove “profitable” to us only as we “rightly divide” it. We must rightly divide the Word of truth for the simple reason that if we do not do this we can pervert the truth and change it into error.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in right- eousness” (II Tim. 3: 16)

Jeff E.

Reply
Aug 30, 2019 09:19:27   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
Parky60 wrote:
You have a short memory...I’ll repeat…

I believe you are referring to these two verses.

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. James 2:17 (NASB)
A faith without works is not real faith at all. It is only a matter of words. James is not saying that we are saved by faith plus works. To hold such a view would be to dishonor the finished work of Christ on the cross. If we were saved by faith plus works, then there would be two saviors—Jesus and ourselves. But the NT is very clear that Christ is the one and only Savior. What James is emphasizing is that we are not saved by a faith of words only but by that kind of faith which results in a life of good works. In other words, works are not the root of salvation but the fruit; they are not the cause but the effect.

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. James 2:26 (NASB)
Here the matter is summarized very beautifully. James compares faith to the human body. He likens works to the spirit. The body (faith) without the spirit (works) is lifeless, useless, valueless. So, faith without works is dead, ineffective, worthless. Obviously, it is a false faith, not genuine saving faith.

This CLEARLY summarizes that we are saved by faith alone and that works are an EVIDENCE of faith.

On last thing…here’s ANOTHER biblical support of salvation by faith alone. I’m sorry if you cannot understand this. Maybe you should go to the throne room and ask for discernment through the Holy Spirit.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)

Couldn't be plainer.
You have a short memory...I’ll repeat… br br I be... (show quote)



Parky, you wrote:

Parky60 wrote:
As Jesus admonished me, I've decided to quit casting pearls before swine and shake the dust from my feet.


What happened? I guess you are able to post errors. Can you admit you were wrong?

Did you read what I wrote here:
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-163979-2.html#2958247

Because you are acting like the devil in constantly replying back to Jesus:

"But Psalms 91:11 says 'In all your ways. 'It's so simple a caveman can understand. It's so simple: in all your ways."

It is true that the Bible did say that:

"11For he will put his angels in charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
12They will bear you up in their hands, so that you won't dash your foot against a stone." Psalm 91:11-12

Clearly, right here, it says nothing about not tempting the lord. So, Parky says, oops, I mean the devil says, "obviously, this applies across the board, 'in all your ways', therefore you can jump from a pinnacle and prove you are of God." Maybe a caveman can understand it that way, but not Jesus Christ. Jesus said "man does not live...but by every word of God" so he proceeded to quote other scripture that refuted the devil's interpretation.

The devil's method of interpretation may sound simple, and may sound right, (because there is a way that seems right that leads to death), but when it negates other scriptures, it is literally, devilishly in error. The devil's method is how you interpret Paul's words, Parky. Jesus' method is what I've been using. And that is so obvious a child could see it.

So it is you who has the short memory and needs to be reminded. Will you throw a tantrum again, and run to your safe space because I tell you the truth?

"A text without a context is a pretext"
Do you understand what this means?

Here's a good, (although random), definition: "A Text Without a Context Is a Pretext. In other words, a scripture read without thought to the surrounding verses is easily misconstrued. Each verse lies inside a chapter. Each chapter inside a Book, inside a Testament, and inside the whole of Scripture. The Best Interpreter of Scripture Is Scripture." https://jameskennison.com/bible-stuff-a-text-without-a-context-is-a-pretext/

So, what was the context of Paul's words you keep quoting? After that we'll ask, What was the "application" of Paul's words by the other apostles and by those who were the direct disciples of Paul?

First, the context for Paul's teaching on faith is Father Abraham. Abraham was given, first of all, two commandments and a promise. Were those commandments "works of the righteousness of the law"? No, they were the works of faith (Hebrews 11:8-9).

"He is the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had in uncircumcision." Romans 4:12

To which Jesus himself agrees:

"If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39

This explanation of the works of faith of father Abraham is the context you ignore. These are just a couple of the hundreds of scriptures you negate and ignore in your insistence on interpreting Paul the way the devil interprets God's word. About which Jesus had this to say:

"41You do the works of your father... 44Ye are of your father the devil..." John 8:41, 44

And just as the indignant Pharisees, you reject and deny Jesus' words (that you have to do the works of Abraham in order to be the sons of Abraham) rather than simply repent and believe.

So we must understand context. There are "works of faith", and then there are "works of righteousness which are the works of the law". Abraham did works, but they weren't works of the law, which would be true and actual "righteousness." Rather, he did works and steps of faith, whereby he was counted righteous: by the synergy of his faith working with his "works of faith".

"21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought ("sunergo –1, to work together, help in work, be partner in labour 2, to put forth power together with and thereby to assist") with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James 2:21-22

Thus James says,

"You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith." James 2:24

That is the only verse in the Greek Bible where "faith" and "alone" are used together, and you negate it by saying "salvation is by faith alone". Paul never put those words together like you Evangelicals do.

Is that simple enough for you?

So, when I say,

"TommyRadd wrote:
Faith + works = justification/salvation
I was just quoting James in James 2:22

And then you reply, the false interpretation:
"In other words: Faith in God PLUS my works = justification/salvatiion
"God + me = justification/salvatiion
"Now THAT'S unbiblical!!!"

First, it's a lie because it's not what I said, it's just you interpreting my words, and you're not understanding what the Bible teaches. And, you conclusion is inconsistent with what I've been saying, just like you do with scriptures.

Secondly, You confound the two. "Works of righteousness" are works of the law, "works of faith" are the works of God "which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10. You would be accusing Abraham of being able to boast of coming out of his father's house and going to the promised land as if those were "works of righteousness" when the Bible explicitly calls them "works" "of faith" (Hebrews 11:8-9. It wasn't until "after" (in Gen. 15:1) Abraham had done these things (in Gen. 12-14) that Abraham's faith (which included his obeying God's commandments) was counted for righteousness.

So, you ignore context in order to make your false conclusions. Pretext means: "A reason or excuse given to hide the real reason for something."

And what you are hiding is simply that you aren't living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, and you are thereby negating the "works/steps of faith" which God has before ordained that we should walk in, in the New Testament, just as Abraham was given steps that God before ordained that he walked in before his faith could be counted as righteous.

If I had been saying one must get righteous according to the law, in order to get saved, then your accusation would be accurate. But I never said that, or implied that, nor is that what I believe or am trying to say. You misinterpret me just like you misinterpret the Bible by taking me, and Paul, totally out of context.

Next is application. No one, and I repeat no one, in the book of Acts is shown to have "applied" what you say is all that is required. In fact they all show that at water baptism is where the "calling on the Lord" was consistently applied, if they mention it.

Not only that, but there is not one, I repeat, not one disciple of Paul on record who wrote the conclusion you and modern day Evangelicals have concocted. Not one. But there was a group that was very close, and they were the anti-Christian gnostics. And those who were legitimate disciples of Paul and the other apostles, consistent, clearly, and constantly renounced the ideas that you and modern day Evangelicals are proposing.

So when you accuse me, you are siding with the anti-Christian gnostics against all the apostles AND all of their legitimate, direct disciples.

In other words, if your interpretation is correct, the apostles, all of them, even Paul, failed at conveying the truth to anyone except the ones they themselves renounced. An then, only modern Evangelicals ultimately came up with the correct formula by which to respond to the gospel.

That is arrogance to the highest degree.

Is that so complicated?

If it is still too complicated for you, I humbly suggest that you shouldn't take it upon yourself to be an expounder or teacher of things that go over your head. I'm not saying that to be mean, but to protect you:

"Let not many of you be teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive heavier judgment. James 3:1

"...5the goal of this command is love, out of a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith; 6from which things some, having missed the mark, have turned aside to vain talking; 7desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither what they say, nor about what they strongly affirm." 1 Timothy 1:5-7

Reply
Aug 30, 2019 09:49:01   #
Rose42
 
jellis50 wrote:
Hello,
I have read portions of this thread and wanted to weigh in... first of all, I believe from the scripture if you are not truly born again, simply meaning been filled with the Holy Spirit, you may be blinded by false doctrine. The Spirit will lead you into all truth.

I glanced over Mr. Raddatz postings and I will have to say I am impressed by his lengthy writings and do not have enough time to read all of it. I am of the opinion that those in this thread are not reading the actual scriptures and rightly dividing the word.

He has laid out the plan of salvation starting from the Old Testament right into the New Testament. The other posts are taking scriptures out context or simply not seeing the entire picture or wanting to reconcile what Mr. Raddatz has posted and their own verses. Please take a moment and ask yourselves, "am I rightly dividing the word"?

“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth.”

The Bible can prove “profitable” to us only as we “rightly divide” it. We must rightly divide the Word of truth for the simple reason that if we do not do this we can pervert the truth and change it into error.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in right- eousness” (II Tim. 3: 16)

Jeff E.
Hello, br I have read portions of this thread and... (show quote)


You are mistaken Jeff. Parky laid it out simply and directly and scripture is clear. He got right to the heart of the matter. On the other hand Tom is speaking on the periphery never quite touching the truth.

Reply
Aug 30, 2019 11:54:32   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
jellis50:

Your interest in the subject of "salvation" is appreciated, however you presume too much.

Praising a lengthy post, after glancing at it, without reading it in it's entirety, and thus feeling qualified to determine this thread's other posters have not read the scriptures, or are somehow unfamiliar with them instantly negates any value your opinion might offer.

Every Bible-believing born again Christian has Biblical assurance that they have been baptized by Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, as their admission into the Body of Christ.

John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."

The Body of Christ (1st Corinthians 12:12-13):
12 "The body is a unit, though it is comprised of many parts. And although its parts are many, they all form one body. So it is with Christ.
13 "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit to drink."

We are united by one Spirit as members of the body of Christ, and unless we should decide to ignore His guidance, we each always have His guidance, and His illumination (teaching) of the meaning of Scripture, as we walk in the Spirit.

God's Spiritual truth is not determined by "lengthy writing," but by the content.



jellis50 wrote:
Hello,
I have read portions of this thread and wanted to weigh in... first of all, I believe from the scripture if you are not truly born again, simply meaning been filled with the Holy Spirit, you may be blinded by false doctrine. The Spirit will lead you into all truth.

I glanced over Mr. Raddatz postings and I will have to say I am impressed by his lengthy writings and do not have enough time to read all of it. I am of the opinion that those in this thread are not reading the actual scriptures and rightly dividing the word.

He has laid out the plan of salvation starting from the Old Testament right into the New Testament. The other posts are taking scriptures out context or simply not seeing the entire picture or wanting to reconcile what Mr. Raddatz has posted and their own verses. Please take a moment and ask yourselves, "am I rightly dividing the word"?

“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth.”

The Bible can prove “profitable” to us only as we “rightly divide” it. We must rightly divide the Word of truth for the simple reason that if we do not do this we can pervert the truth and change it into error.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in right- eousness” (II Tim. 3: 16)

Jeff E.
Hello, br I have read portions of this thread and... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Aug 30, 2019 12:00:58   #
bahmer
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Part 4

So Zemirah is guilty of the sin of respect of persons, of adding to and taking away from the scriptures, and lying about what the scriptures say and mean (and I haven’t even addressed them all).

“16By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. 18A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. 19Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.” Matthew 7:16-20
This was Jesus’ prescription for how to tell true from false Christians when you otherwise can’t tell them apart.

Both Zemirah and Parky will admit that a Christian is known by their fruits, meaning, we agree, that real Christians will produce and display true righteousness and good works:

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 5:16

So, if a person has been “saved from sin”, and “freed from the bondage of sin”, it shouldn’t be that hard to keep oneself from sinning on a short internet post or two. But that is what Zemirah has done, whereby, if her words sound plausible, Jesus says rather, you will know them by their fruits: her lying, and the sin of respect of persons, and the sin of teaching other doctrines than the apostles actually taught, are all very real sins.

It is also written:
“for this is the love of God, that His commands we may keep, and His commands are not burdensome;” 1 John 5:3

Obviously, if it is so difficult to keep from sinning on a few short internet posts, that means God’s commandments are grievous to the one who sins.

“Don't you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?” Romans 6:16

“13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as Christ's apostles. 14And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is no great thing therefore if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.” 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

Since Zemirah has to commit sin in order to preach her perverted version of the gospel, it is real evidence she is the servant of sin, which is what Romans 6:16 above explicitly said. And since she is still a sinner, in open and unrepentant sin, it is legitimate to ask, What was she saved from???

“You shall call his name Jesus, for it is he who shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” 1 John 3:8

Jesus didn’t save us so we could be religious, he saved us so we could be righteous. He didn’t only save us for a relationship with God, he restored us to God so God could transform us into servants of righteousness. He didn’t save us to give us the freedom to sin, he saved us to free us from our slavery to our sin. Clearly, Zemirah is still a slave to her sins.

This all goes right over the heads of those who love serving their sin more than they love serving their savior, who commands us to “be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect” Matthew 5:48

“19promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for a man is brought into bondage by whoever overcomes him. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.” 2 Peter 2:19-20

Now, if good faith produces good fruit, when does that happen? Zemirah is of a good age in the faith and has been an active Christian for a long time, but she is still under bondage to sin. She has not yet been “saved” from her sin. She can’t even keep from sinning in two given internet posts!

“4You have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin” Hebrews 12:4

“10He said to me, "Don't seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11He who acts unjustly, let him act unjustly still. He who is filthy, let him be filthy still. He who is righteous, let him do righteousness still. He who is holy, let him be holy still."
12"Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work.” Rev 22:10-12

So it is ironic for Zemirah to post on the topic “Salvation,” when it is evident she is not saved from sin herself. It would be like being told you can learn how to live sober by a drunk. Imagine a drunk person, with a bottle of booze in their hand, slurring their words as they tell you, “jus’ follow me, <hickup>, I’ll show you what I did to quit drinkin’ for good”. That is what Jesus meant when he said you will know them by their fruits. He was talking about righteousness vs sin, good versus evil, not numbers of converts. Sometimes people miss that.

So, it is obvious that the scriptures Zemirah uses to attempt to defame my character actually condemn her because she is the one who uses a lot of words and can’t help lying because of it. It would have been better for her not to have said anything.

“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:37

One has to have been truly born again and walking in the Spirit to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh.” Galatians 5:16

“1There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don't walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit... 12So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” Romans 8:1, 12-13

All Zemirah has really been able to find me guilty of are the traditions of men that she holds to.

“2"Why do your disciples disobey the tradition of the elders?..." 3He answered them, "Why do you also disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition?” Matthew 15:2-3

Why did Jesus condemn such methods (of being found a sinner while preaching the truth, and of preaching traditions of men that break commandments), if those are acceptable methods by which true Christianity is supposed to be presented? Therefore, the astute reader should take note that Zemirah’s fruits of lying and respect of persons, both grievous sins, are shouting to you that she serves sin and thus not God.

If you want to be a follower of modern-day Pharisees, Zemirah and her gang are who you want to listen to. If you believe you want to be delivered from the sin they are in bondage to, here’s your answer:

“17Now I beg you, brothers, look out for those who are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and turn away from them. 18For those who are such don't serve our Lord, Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by their smooth and flattering speech, they deceive the hearts of the innocent.” Romans 16:17-18

This is the reason I took the time to show that, from the beginning of the Bible, the true doctrine can be found, and the post Zemirah has offered is completely contrary to the teachings that had once and for all been delivered to the saints.

It is also written:
“12For although by this time you should be teachers, you again need to have someone teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God. You have come to need milk, and not solid food. 13For everyone who lives on milk is not experienced in the word of righteousness, for he is a baby. 14But solid food is for those who are full grown, who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.” Hebrews 5:12-13

The very fact that Zemirah can’t “hold her own” when confronted with strong meat against her position also exposes that she is a baby in the word who lives on milk and can’t stomach strong meat. This scripture says such folks need to be retaught the fundamentals of the Bible, so that is what I set out to do for her, and rather than hear the word of God, she has chosen to double-down in stretching the scriptures beyond their intention in order to manufacture a sin against me, but she hasn’t even attempted to show where I actually “lied”, which those scriptures she quoted predict will happen to those who talk too much and don’t hold their tongues. So, if her interpretation is true, it should be a walk in the park for her to point out where I actually lied. But she has been exposed to be a liar, not just in a simple misstatement of facts, but as the basis and foundation of both the posts I’m referring to.

And it is very evident that no liar has salvation.
“But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

I don’t expect this set of posts to go over well at all, even though they are meant well, believe it or not.

“17For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him... 19This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God." Jon 3:17-21

I tried in the beginning to appeal to Zemirah’s sense of reasoning, but she reacted with disdain to the quoted words of God that contradicted her words. When Jesus confronted the false teachers in his day, he did so openly and in the light of day before many witnesses. He wasn’t only using them for teaching examples, he also cared for them, as I really do for Zemirah. If you think Jesus was being unloving or disrespectful, or didn’t care for those Pharisee’s souls, you would be mistaken. They also were of the lost children of Israel whom he came to save. But because of the hardening of their heart, a light touch wasn’t going to phase them. If, on the other hand, you think Jesus did the right thing in how he treated false teachers openly, then you likely also understand this, which some Christians don’t want to remember:

“5and you have forgotten the exhortation which reasons with you as with children, "My son, don't take lightly the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are reproved by him; 6For whom the Lord loves, he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives." 7It is for discipline that you endure. God deals with you as with children, for what son is there whom his father doesn't discipline? 8But if you are without discipline, of which all have been made partakers, then are you illegitimate, and not children. 9Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they indeed, for a few days, punished us as seemed good to them; but he for our profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness. 11All chastening seems for the present to be not joyous but grievous; yet afterward it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been exercised thereby. Hebrews 12:5-11

Anyone who thinks they are above being chastened by God has forgotten that, as we stand before Him, we are all yet children, and none of us are above chastisement. The question is, how will you deal with it when it comes.
Part 4 br br So Zemirah is guilty of the sin of r... (show quote)


When I first read one of your posts I thought that you may know what you are talking about but after reading several more of your posts I have to retract my first opinion and put you in the area as those that have gone off of the deep end in the wrong direction. I presently am more aligned with Zemirah and Rose42 than I am with you as they are more in line with the Bible than you are.

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Aug 30, 2019 13:09:30   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
As an addendum to my response to your comments, Jeff:

The study of the Old Testament is of great value to every believer for its historical
and spiritual truth, BUT it does not dictate the terms of the New Testament, for it was administered under the Law, not under grace, and they are mutually exclusive.

The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans

The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

If the New Testament were a mere continuation, i.e., a new chapter of the Old Testament,
there would have been no New Covenant, based on the debt for our sins having been paid in full by Jesus on the cross, making possible the free gift of grace offered in the Gospel given to the Apostles through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus had promised them.

God made His own visible video available to men as a witness of what had occurred.

God's Old Testament covenant ended when the veil over the Holy of Holies split open as Jesus died on the cross, and the Holy Spirit departed from the Jerusalem Temple.

Jesus' New Testament covenant officially arrived on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit reentered Jerusalem, descending upon the believers in the Upper Room, with the appearance of tongues of fire.

Please feel welcome to continue to participate.


Zemirah wrote:
jellis50:

Your interest in the subject of "salvation" is appreciated, however you presume too much.

Praising a lengthy post, after glancing at it, without reading it in it's entirety, and thus feeling qualified to determine this thread's other posters have not read the scriptures, or are somehow unfamiliar with them instantly negates any value your opinion might offer.

Every Bible-believing born again Christian has Biblical assurance that they have been baptized by Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, as their admission into the Body of Christ.

John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."

The Body of Christ (1st Corinthians 12:12-13):
12 "The body is a unit, though it is comprised of many parts. And although its parts are many, they all form one body. So it is with Christ.
13 "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit to drink."

We are united by one Spirit as members of the body of Christ, and unless we should decide to ignore His guidance, we each always have His guidance, and His illumination (teaching) of the meaning of Scripture, as we walk in the Spirit.

God's Spiritual truth is not determined by "lengthy writing," but by the content.
jellis50: br br Your interest in the subject of ... (show quote)

Reply
Aug 30, 2019 13:54:23   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Thank you for your comment, bahmer,

It is most welcome after seeing accusation after accusation of sins I have committed in Tommy Radditz's eyes.

God has assured us through the Psalms of His servant, David, who was a prophet, that before Him, we who believe upon His Son, Jesus, are seen with the righteousness that was purchased by Christ upon the cross, as He paid our sin debt in full...

"The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in loving devotion. He will not always accuse us, nor harbor His anger forever.
He has not dealt with us according to our sins or repaid us according to our iniquities.…

"For His unfailing love toward those who fear Him is as great as the height of the heavens above the earth.

He has removed our sins as far from us as the east is from the west."
Psalm 103:8-12



It is indeed unfortunate that Tommy Radd(itz) has let go of this most basic truth of Christianity, forgetting that only God looks upon the heart.

As Christians, we defend God's Word (Jude 1:3) against the false teaching of false teachers, but we do not judge a fellow Christian's soul.

bahmer wrote:
When I first read one of your posts I thought that you may know what you are talking about but after reading several more of your posts I have to retract my first opinion and put you in the area as those that have gone off of the deep end in the wrong direction. I presently am more aligned with Zemirah and Rose42 than I am with you as they are more in line with the Bible than you are.

Reply
Aug 30, 2019 14:26:13   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
Zemirah wrote:
As an addendum to my response to your comments, Jeff:

The study of the Old Testament is of great value to every believer for its historical
and spiritual truth, BUT it does not dictate the terms of the New Testament, for it was administered under the Law, not under grace, and they are mutually exclusive.

The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans

The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

If the New Testament were a mere continuation, i.e., a new chapter of the Old Testament,
there would have been no New Covenant, based on the debt for our sins having been paid in full by Jesus on the cross, making possible the free gift of grace offered in the Gospel given to the Apostles through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus had promised them.

God made His own visible video available to men as a witness of what had occurred.

God's Old Testament covenant ended when the veil over the Holy of Holies split open as Jesus died on the cross, and the Holy Spirit departed from the Jerusalem Temple.

Jesus' New Testament covenant officially arrived on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit reentered Jerusalem, descending upon the believers in the Upper Room, with the appearance of tongues of fire.

Please feel welcome to continue to participate.
As an addendum to my response to your comments, Je... (show quote)


This post merely presents a false dilemma as “truth” when it is actually deception. The response given by Peter in Acts 2:38 was not part of the law, it was the foundation of the New Testament.

Furthermore, it is written, by Paul no less:

“16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He doesn't say, "To seeds," as of many, but as of one, "To your seed," which is Christ. 17Now I say this. A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the law, which came four hundred thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect. 18For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by promise. 19What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the seed should come to whom the promise has been made...
24So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor....

Why is that Paul, go on, tell us why...

...26For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Galatians 3:16-19

“3Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; 6knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7For he who has died has been freed from sin.” Romans 6:3-7

“9... For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10How then was it counted? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11He received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they might be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might also be accounted to them. 12He is the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had in uncircumcision.” Romans 4:9-12


This Jesus Himself also affirmed- "…Jesus saith… Abraham's children… do the works of Abraham." -John 8:39.

Ooops, you missed it Paul, and you missed it Jesus, we’re only justified by faith alone, as according to Zemirah and company. Paul at least, you should know better, because they got that from you. So, there’s yet another verse the Evangelicals need to cut out of their Bibles. End of sarcasm.

Explain, Zemirah, if you aren’t just presenting a false dilemma, how Abraham’s faithful obedience in Genesis 12-14 was “of the law” and not “of faith” like the Bible says it was?

“8By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out to the place which he was to receive for an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he went.
9 By faith, he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a land not his own...” Hebrews 11:8-9

Abraham had at least a couple of “must do’s” before his faith was counted for righteousness. Those weren’t “of the law” and they weren’t “Abraham’s righteousness.

What the law didn’t do was nullify the faith of Abraham which was a faith of faithful obedience as directed by God.

Couldn’t be clearer when you realize that the Old Testament was our schoolmaster to bring us to the faith of Christ.

Reply
 
 
Aug 30, 2019 15:03:44   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Tommy R., All this blather (definition: to talk foolishly at length) in your last post is of no Biblical consequence.

You are conflating 1) God's eternal Covenant with Abraham, which was never under either law, or grace through Jesus Christ, as defined in the N.T., but based on God's unconditional promise to perform what He had promised, with

2) God's giving of the Ten Commandments to Moses 400 years later, beginning the Mosaic covenant, which placed the Israelites under the Law to perform the sacrifices required of them, at which they repeatedly failed, proving the need for a savior who could succeed in living a sinless life on their behave.


TommyRadd wrote:
This post merely presents a false dilemma as “truth” when it is actually deception. The response given by Peter in Acts 2:38 was not part of the law, it was the foundation of the New Testament.

Furthermore, it is written, by Paul no less:

“16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He doesn't say, "To seeds," as of many, but as of one, "To your seed," which is Christ. 17Now I say this. A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the law, which came four hundred thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect. 18For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by promise. 19What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the seed should come to whom the promise has been made...
24So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor....

Why is that Paul, go on, tell us why...

...26For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Galatians 3:16-19

“3Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; 6knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7For he who has died has been freed from sin.” Romans 6:3-7

“9... For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10How then was it counted? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11He received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they might be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might also be accounted to them. 12He is the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had in uncircumcision.” Romans 4:9-12


This Jesus Himself also affirmed- "…Jesus saith… Abraham's children… do the works of Abraham." -John 8:39.

Ooops, you missed it Paul, and you missed it Jesus, we’re only justified by faith alone, as according to Zemirah and company. Paul at least, you should know better, because they got that from you. So, there’s yet another verse the Evangelicals need to cut out of their Bibles. End of sarcasm.

Explain, Zemirah, if you aren’t just presenting a false dilemma, how Abraham’s faithful obedience in Genesis 12-14 was “of the law” and not “of faith” like the Bible says it was?

“8By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out to the place which he was to receive for an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he went.
9 By faith, he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a land not his own...” Hebrews 11:8-9

Abraham had at least a couple of “must do’s” before his faith was counted for righteousness. Those weren’t “of the law” and they weren’t “Abraham’s righteousness.

What the law didn’t do was nullify the faith of Abraham which was a faith of faithful obedience as directed by God.

Couldn’t be clearer when you realize that the Old Testament was our schoolmaster to bring us to the faith of Christ.
This post merely presents a false dilemma as “trut... (show quote)

Reply
Aug 30, 2019 18:19:55   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Grammar and Structure of Acts 2:38 (https://carm.org/baptism-and-acts-238)

This was the 1st sermon delivered by Peter on behave of the "ecclesia," the newly formed church/congregation of Jesus Christ, for Jesus is Himself the only possible foundation of Christianity in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 3:11
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Jesus is the foundation of the church (cf. 1 Peter 2:4-8; Eph. 2:20; Isa. 28:16). Paul states without possible equivocation that there can be no other foundation. This forever destroys the concept that any man or the office of any man is the foundation of the church. Neither Matt. 16:18 nor any other passage can properly be used to teach the church has some other foundation. In fact this verse shows clearly that the "rock" in Matthew 16:18 must be Jesus.

It is entirely right that Jesus should be the foundation, since He is Deity and the Savior who died for the church. He purchased it with His blood (Acts 20:28), and is the Head of it (Ephesians. 1:22,23; 5:22-25). It is folly to think that any man or office occupied by a man could serve as a proper foundation for Jesus' church.

"Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

Acts 2:38 is one of the more controversial verses in the Bible regarding baptism and whether or not it is the requirement for salvation. Some use this verse to say that one must be baptized in order to be saved. But when you look at the verse, and others, you will see that it does not teach baptismal regeneration, that baptism saves, or that baptism is necessary for salvation.

In Acts 2:38 the main verb is metanoesate (change mind), the aorist direct imperative (a command) of metanoeo which means to repent (change mind).

This refers to that initial repentance of the sinner unto salvation. The verb translated "be baptized" is in the indirect passive imperative (a command to receive; hence, passive voice in Greek1) of baptizo, which does not give it the same direct command implied in "repent."
The preposition "for" in the phrase "for the remission of sins" in Greek is "eis," unto or into, and it is in the accusative case (direct object).
It can mean "for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins." It is the same preposition we find in 1st Corinthian 10:2 in the phrase "and were baptized unto Moses."

Note that both contexts are dealing with baptism and identification.
In 1st Corinthians 10:2, the people were baptized or spiritually identifying themselves with the purposes and vision of Moses.

Repentance, therefore, is presented as identifying an individual with the remission of his sins even as baptism following repentance provides an external identification visible to others.
Repentance is something that concerns an individual and God while baptism involves others.
That is why baptistheto (let be immersed) is in the passive voice indicating that one does not baptize himself but is baptized by another usually in the presence of others. Repentance, however, is an act taking place within a person's heart as the Holy Spirit moves in the sinner.


"Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Here’s a question that will help with James 2:24: when was Abraham credited with righteousness?
Was it after he tried to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis 22?
Was it after he was circumcised in Genesis 17?
No, it was back in Genesis 15.

“We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!” (Romans 4:9-10)

The word of the Lord came to Abraham in Genesis 15, in verses 1, 4 and 5. Abraham “believed the Lord” in verse 6 and was immediately credited with righteousness.
On this point James and Paul are in complete agreement. (Actually they are in complete agreement on all points.)
So what "works" had Abraham done when righteousness was credited to him in Genesis 15?
Only one – "he believed God."
What "work" did Jesus say Abraham had done that the Jews had not done?
"He believed God."

What exactly did Abraham believe?
"He believed that God was his shield and his exceedingly great reward."
Although Abraham received many promises from God, Genesis 15:1 might be considered "The Promise" as it foreshadowed the two-fold work that God’s Son would accomplish on the cross – protection (from judgment) and provision (new life in Christ).

The shield speaks of God’s mercy (complete forgiveness!) while the reward speaks of the riches of His grace (God Himself – He is the gift!). In other words, Abraham believed in, and eagerly looked forward to Jesus! We know this because Jesus told the Jews:

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56)

What are the works of Abraham?

Jesus said the Jews were nothing like their father Abraham because they did not do what Abraham did, and what they did Abraham did not do.
The Jews rejected Jesus, but Abraham embraced Jesus with joy and gladness, albeit from a distance (Hebrews 11:13). The "works" of Abraham are thus identical to the "works" that God requires of all men:

“Jesus answered, ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.’”
(John 6:29)
Period.

James said that Abraham was considered righteous for what he did. What did he do? Jesus has already given us the short answer (he believed); Paul gives us a longer answer:

“Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, ‘So shall your offspring be.’ Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why ‘it was credited to him as righteousness.’” (Romans 4:18-22)

Again, what are the “works of Abraham”?
They are believing and being fully persuaded that God will deliver on His promises even when reality says otherwise.
When was Abraham fully persuaded?
It was in Genesis 15, when God credited him with righteousness.
When did we see evidence that Abraham was fully persuaded?
In Genesis 22, when he tried to sacrifice Isaac.

That’s why James writes “You see his faith and actions were working together.”

But God saw Abraham’s faith seven chapters earlier.




TommyRadd wrote:
This post merely presents a false dilemma as “truth” when it is actually deception. The response given by Peter in Acts 2:38 was not part of the law, it was the foundation of the New Testament.

Furthermore, it is written, by Paul no less:

“16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He doesn't say, "To seeds," as of many, but as of one, "To your seed," which is Christ. 17Now I say this. A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the law, which came four hundred thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect. 18For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by promise. 19What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the seed should come to whom the promise has been made...
24So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor....

Why is that Paul, go on, tell us why...

...26For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Galatians 3:16-19

“3Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; 6knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7For he who has died has been freed from sin.” Romans 6:3-7

“9... For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10How then was it counted? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11He received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they might be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might also be accounted to them. 12He is the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had in uncircumcision.” Romans 4:9-12


This Jesus Himself also affirmed- "…Jesus saith… Abraham's children… do the works of Abraham." -John 8:39.

Ooops, you missed it Paul, and you missed it Jesus, we’re only justified by faith alone, as according to Zemirah and company. Paul at least, you should know better, because they got that from you. So, there’s yet another verse the Evangelicals need to cut out of their Bibles. End of sarcasm.

Explain, Zemirah, if you aren’t just presenting a false dilemma, how Abraham’s faithful obedience in Genesis 12-14 was “of the law” and not “of faith” like the Bible says it was?

“8By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out to the place which he was to receive for an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he went.
9 By faith, he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a land not his own...” Hebrews 11:8-9

Abraham had at least a couple of “must do’s” before his faith was counted for righteousness. Those weren’t “of the law” and they weren’t “Abraham’s righteousness.

What the law didn’t do was nullify the faith of Abraham which was a faith of faithful obedience as directed by God.

Couldn’t be clearer when you realize that the Old Testament was our schoolmaster to bring us to the faith of Christ.
This post merely presents a false dilemma as “trut... (show quote)

Reply
Aug 30, 2019 18:27:32   #
bahmer
 
Zemirah wrote:
Grammar and Structure of Acts 2:38 (https://carm.org/baptism-and-acts-238)

This was the 1st sermon delivered by Peter on behave of the "ecclesia," the newly formed church/congregation of Jesus Christ, for Jesus is Himself the only possible foundation of Christianity in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 3:11
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Jesus is the foundation of the church (cf. 1 Peter 2:4-8; Eph. 2:20; Isa. 28:16). Paul states without possible equivocation that there can be no other foundation. This forever destroys the concept that any man or the office of any man is the foundation of the church. Neither Matt. 16:18 nor any other passage can properly be used to teach the church has some other foundation. In fact this verse shows clearly that the "rock" in Matthew 16:18 must be Jesus.

It is entirely right that Jesus should be the foundation, since He is Deity and the Savior who died for the church. He purchased it with His blood (Acts 20:28), and is the Head of it (Ephesians. 1:22,23; 5:22-25). It is folly to think that any man or office occupied by a man could serve as a proper foundation for Jesus' church.

"Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

Acts 2:38 is one of the more controversial verses in the Bible regarding baptism and whether or not it is the requirement for salvation. Some use this verse to say that one must be baptized in order to be saved. But when you look at the verse, and others, you will see that it does not teach baptismal regeneration, that baptism saves, or that baptism is necessary for salvation.

In Acts 2:38 the main verb is metanoesate (change mind), the aorist direct imperative (a command) of metanoeo which means to repent (change mind).

This refers to that initial repentance of the sinner unto salvation. The verb translated "be baptized" is in the indirect passive imperative (a command to receive; hence, passive voice in Greek1) of baptizo, which does not give it the same direct command implied in "repent."
The preposition "for" in the phrase "for the remission of sins" in Greek is "eis," unto or into, and it is in the accusative case (direct object).
It can mean "for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins." It is the same preposition we find in 1st Corinthian 10:2 in the phrase "and were baptized unto Moses."

Note that both contexts are dealing with baptism and identification.
In 1st Corinthians 10:2, the people were baptized or spiritually identifying themselves with the purposes and vision of Moses.

Repentance, therefore, is presented as identifying an individual with the remission of his sins even as baptism following repentance provides an external identification visible to others.
Repentance is something that concerns an individual and God while baptism involves others.
That is why baptistheto (let be immersed) is in the passive voice indicating that one does not baptize himself but is baptized by another usually in the presence of others. Repentance, however, is an act taking place within a person's heart as the Holy Spirit moves in the sinner.


"Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Here’s a question that will help with James 2:24: when was Abraham credited with righteousness?
Was it after he tried to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis 22?
Was it after he was circumcised in Genesis 17?
No, it was back in Genesis 15.

“We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!” (Romans 4:9-10)

The word of the Lord came to Abraham in Genesis 15, in verses 1, 4 and 5. Abraham “believed the Lord” in verse 6 and was immediately credited with righteousness.
On this point James and Paul are in complete agreement. (Actually they are in complete agreement on all points.)
So what "works" had Abraham done when righteousness was credited to him in Genesis 15?
Only one – "he believed God."
What "work" did Jesus say Abraham had done that the Jews had not done?
"He believed God."

What exactly did Abraham believe?
"He believed that God was his shield and his exceedingly great reward."
Although Abraham received many promises from God, Genesis 15:1 might be considered "The Promise" as it foreshadowed the two-fold work that God’s Son would accomplish on the cross – protection (from judgment) and provision (new life in Christ).

The shield speaks of God’s mercy (complete forgiveness!) while the reward speaks of the riches of His grace (God Himself – He is the gift!). In other words, Abraham believed in, and eagerly looked forward to Jesus! We know this because Jesus told the Jews:

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56)

What are the works of Abraham?

Jesus said the Jews were nothing like their father Abraham because they did not do what Abraham did, and what they did Abraham did not do.
The Jews rejected Jesus, but Abraham embraced Jesus with joy and gladness, albeit from a distance (Hebrews 11:13). The "works" of Abraham are thus identical to the "works" that God requires of all men:

“Jesus answered, ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.’”
(John 6:29)
Period.

James said that Abraham was considered righteous for what he did. What did he do? Jesus has already given us the short answer (he believed); Paul gives us a longer answer:

“Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, ‘So shall your offspring be.’ Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why ‘it was credited to him as righteousness.’” (Romans 4:18-22)

Again, what are the “works of Abraham”?
They are believing and being fully persuaded that God will deliver on His promises even when reality says otherwise.
When was Abraham fully persuaded?
It was in Genesis 15, when God credited him with righteousness.
When did we see evidence that Abraham was fully persuaded?
In Genesis 22, when he tried to sacrifice Isaac.

That’s why James writes “You see his faith and actions were working together.”

But God saw Abraham’s faith seven chapters earlier.
Grammar and Structure of Acts 2:38 (https://carm.o... (show quote)


Amen and Amen Excellent Zemirah thanks for posting that.

Reply
Aug 30, 2019 19:12:45   #
jellis50
 
After reading the comments in reply to my one post admonishing others to rightly divide the word I have come to the conclusion many of you are wrestling the scriptures to you own destruction...

Goodbye, I shake the dust off my feet. I have better things to spend my time on.

Reply
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