Rose42

Right. The cynic in me says you already knew Tom and came here to defend his error.

Be that as it may, the bible is very clear that we are saved by faith and works are the fruit of that faith. Crystal clear as already shown. Anything else is not of the Holy Spirit.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Bahmer,

I'm going to prove to you through the words of Jesus that these people do not really believe Jesus.

Paul said to "believe on the lord Jesus Christ" not, "believe on Paul no matter what Jesus says."

Paul also said if you say you are "of Paul" you are carnal in 1 Cor. 3:4

In the OP, it states this: "To attempt to do anything for one’s salvation beyond believing “on the Lord Jesus Christ” is to deny that Christ paid the full penalty for sin on the cross and to reject God’s offer on that basis of forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift of His grace."

Let's see if Jesus himself agrees with that conclusion:

"4But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lampstand out of its place, unless you repent." Revelation 2:4-5

Does that sound like Jesus believed, or was telling them, there was nothing they could do, no works whatsoever, that could do anything to secure or retain their salvation?

And what would devil's say differently than these if they wanted to appear as servants of righteousness without actually being so?

"13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as Christ's apostles. 14And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is no great thing therefore if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

And again Jesus said:

"13I know your works and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. You hold firmly to my name, and did not deny my faith... 14But I have a few things against you... 16Repent therefore, or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth." Revelation 2:13-16

Here Jesus said they had not denied his faith, yet they still needed to repent of their sins. How then can it be, without twisting Jesus words, to say that Jesus believed, or supported the idea, that salvation is by faith "alone"?

And again Jesus said:

"19"I know your works, your love, faith, service, patient endurance, and that your last works are more than the first. 20But I have this against you, that you tolerate your woman, Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. She teaches and seduces my servants to commit sexual immorality, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22Behold, I will throw her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great oppression, unless they repent of her works. 23I will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds." Revelation 2:19-23

So Jesus first commends their faith, among other things. Was "faith alone" enough to secure or retain their salvation? Jesus said he would kill such believers with death according to their deeds.

Jesus was not admonishing anyone, and did not chastise anyone, that they had lost their first love of "salvation by faith alone", not once was that an issue he had with anyone. So why are these false teachers condemning what Jesus did not condemn and refuting the reasons Jesus gave for his chastisement and condemnations? Whose side are they on? Jesus' or the devil's masquerading as Christians as wolves in sheep's clothing?

Why then is "faith alone" the big issue with these sinners, if it was never "the big issue" with Jesus? If you look closely at what Jesus is saying, by condemning saints based on their works rather than not "only believing", he is quite literally condemning the "faith alone" position constantly!

Who are you listening to? Paul said to believe on Jesus, and if you elevate him (Paul) you are carnal. I choose to believe Jesus above people's interpretation of a handful of Paul's words taken out of context.

Again Jesus said:

"(To Sardis)...2...I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent... 5He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life..." Revelation 3:2-3,5

What was it that Jesus found that wasn't right that he would judge them over, their lack of belief in "faith alone" or their works? How could Jesus blot someone's name out of the book of life if it wasn't written there already? And what was it that caused those names to be blotted out, their lack of accepting the free gift of "faith only" or their works? Now recall James' words: "You see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith only? James 2:24

Again Jesus said:

"(To Laodiceans)...15"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot. 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth. 17Because you say, 'I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing;' and don't know that you are the wretched one, miserable, poor, blind, and naked; 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich; and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19As many as I love, I reprove and chasten. Be zealous therefore, and repent." Revelation 3:15-19

You say I'm off the deep end, well, yeah, that's what being on fire for God looks like. I live by every word of God, not taking a handful of verses out of context and then negating the mountain of verses that teach otherwise. I've shown you the nakedness of them who say they are rich and have need of nothing, because of their false, "faith alone" doctrine that Jesus himself rebuffs and disproves. These sinners put Paul on a pedestal and send Jesus to the back of the class with a dunce hat on.

So, I choose to hear and believe Jesus, the one who is actually sitting on the throne, and speaking from the throne, the one who died for my sins, over these sinners and modern day Pharisees, because it is written:

"1But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction. 2Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned...
18For, uttering great swelling words of emptiness, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by licentiousness, those who are indeed escaping from those who live in error; 19promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for a man is brought into bondage by whoever overcomes him." 2 Peter 2:1-2, 18-19

I had hoped you were of the same mind. But God has not taken away your free will.

Rose42

If they didn't repent. Do you not understand this? You have no understanding of the verses you are using.



The question is who are YOU listening to? No one elevates Paul. Paul was directed by the Holy Spirit or don't you believe that? Or do you believe it only when it fits your narrative?

You are lost on this. You discard simplicity for convoluted reasoning that goes nowhere. Those who are new to the faith or weak in their faith could be deceived by it. I have seen people deceived by your meandering posts before because they put man's wisdom above that of God's word and their replies reflected that.

No one is elevating Paul. Paul wrote as directed by the Holy Spirit and those are not his words or ideas but God's. Yet you use other verses written by people other than Paul in a vain effort to support your opinion.

No one took anything Paul said out of context.

bahmer

Amen and Amen thanks for that Rose much appreciated.

bahmer

There is a sect of believers out here in the middle of the country that have started up and they felt that they were not doing enough for the Lord. Now these were from a group and know some of them as they were once attending a church that I attended. What they have done is started trying to uphold the Torah in there desire to do more for the Lord. They don't eat pork and they worship on the Sabbath day and so on and so on. You sound by your writings that you could actually be part of this sect.

I will say this to you TommyRadd that I have been on OPP for some time now and I have seen Zemirah's and Rose42's posting and a number of others here as well. But as far as biblical accuracy I will accept Zemirah's and Rose42's posting over yours any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I hope that you go back and do some searching in the scriptures because you are far out in left field at present.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Thank you, Rose, you actually proved my point.

The OP article said there was nothing you could do, period, for salvation, and that is precisely what I have been arguing against. And you and Zemirah have adamantly defended the conclusion made in the article. And now you just admitted that repentance is a requirement. Repentance is a work that we do in synergy with our faith, not something that God arbitrarily, and "predestinedly" bestows upon some people and not others:

"if my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14

"30Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, everyone according to his ways, says the Lord Yahweh. Return, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin." Ezekiel 18:30

Paul explicitly defined repentance as something we do, not that God does:

"10for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God; 11so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:10-11

That is what synergy between faith and works looks like, and you have just admitted it. I wonder how you are going to spin your way out of this one. But more importantly, what, in your heart, would make you want to?

So unless you are saying God makes His saints repent, as if they are preprogrammed robots, and they are completely passive in response to God working in their lives, which is determinism and raises a whole other level of issues, you have unwittingly proved that salvation is NOT by "faith alone." Because even you have "added" repentance, something we "do".

Thanks for that, at least.

The false dilemma lie that the "faith only" crowd have bought into is that when Paul said, "for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" they jump to the conclusion he was explaining some kind of monergy (meaning one-energy, or, "all-of-God-and-none-of-me). That concept (all God and none of me) is totally pagan and Gnostic dualism, which is where people like Augustine got that idea. In truth, all Paul was refuting was the monergism of the opposite, that of "all-me-and-no-God". Paul was merely saying that no one can save themselves either by their own works, or by their own salvation plan. Rather and instead, that we are called to be God's workmanship by OUR walking in His ways and truth, which He has ordained we walk in.

"For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Ephesians 2:10.

This was Paul's way of explaining the same synergy that James described, except James actually used the word synergy:

“21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought ("sunergo –1, to work together, help in work, be partner in labour 2, to put forth power together with and thereby to assist") with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness... 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only… 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. -James 2:21-26.

James clearly tied faith and works together with the word sunergo, which, as is defined above, imparts a clear and specific sense of partnership, rather than result.

It was God who called Abraham out of his father's house, and to the land of promise. It was God who told Abraham exactly what Abraham had to do, by faith he walked: that is synergy. God didn't first miraculously pick Abraham up and take him out of his father's house and then say, "now believe on me", that would have been monergy, all God and none of Abraham.

In the same manner, on the day of Pentecost, Peter said,

"Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

Those are the works, like those given to Abraham in Genesis 12, of which "...God prepared in advance for us to do." Ephesians 2:10.

"For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise." Hebrews 10:36

Rose42

No I didn’t prove your point. I know some who deny God’s nature place a high importance on works and forget that works are fruit. There’s no dancing around it.

As already pointed out those who are weak or shallow in their faith may buy into your misuse of scripture as they have before. Hopefully not.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

And there’s the spin.

How is repentance “fruit” in Peter’s commandment in Acts 2:38?

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Part 2

Following are quotes from early Christians who were not Gnostics who understood that faith and works operated in synergy...

Clement of Rome (companion of Apostle Paul), Letter to Corinthians, cp 34-35- "…It is required, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well-doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: "Behold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his work." Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those who wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith to(wards) God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity…"

Polycarp (companion of Apostle John), Philippians, cp 2- "He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness…"

Barnabas, Letter of, cp 21- "It is well, therefore, that he who has learned the judgments of the Lord, as many as have been written, should walk in them. For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution."

Hermas, book 2, comm. 7; "Fear, then, the Lord, and you will live to Him, and as many as fear Him and keep His commandments will live to God." "Why," said I, "sir, did you say in regard to those that keep His commandments, that they will live to God?" "Because," says he, "all creation fears the Lord, but all creation does not keep His commandments. They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them."

Hermas Book 3, sim. 10, cp 2 "And all who follow out his commands shall have life, and great honour with the Lord. But those who do not keep his commandments, flee from his life, and despise him. But he has his own honour with the Lord. All, therefore, who shall despise him, and not follow his commands, deliver themselves to death, and every one of them will be guilty of his own blood."

Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 10- "And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that… if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received--of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering."

Clement of Alexandria, Rich Man, cp 1,2- "…Whosoever obtains this (truth) and distinguishes himself in good works shall gain the prize of everlasting life."

Clement of Alexandria, To Heathen, cp 11- "And the Word, having unfolded the truth, showed to men the height of salvation, that either repenting they might be saved, or refusing to obey, they might be judged. This is the proclamation of righteousness: to those that obey, glad tidings; to those that disobey, judgment."

Hippolytus, Fragments from Commentaries, "On Proverbs"- "There be four things which are least upon the earth, and these are wiser than the wise: The ants have no strength, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." And in like manner, the Gentiles by faith in Christ prepare for themselves eternal life through good works."

Cyprian, Treatises, I. Unity of the Church, sec. 15- "For both to prophesy and to cast out devils, and to do great acts upon the earth is certainly a sublime and an admirable thing; but one does not attain the kingdom of heaven although he is found in all these things, unless he walks in the observance of the right and just way. The Lord denounces, and says, "Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." There is need of righteousness, that one may deserve well of God the Judge; we must obey His precepts and warnings, that our merits may receive their reward."

Lactantius, Institutes, chap 32 (paraphrased) “Why, then, did He make [man] frail and mortal?… [So] He might set before man virtue, that is, endurance of evils and labors, by which he might be able to gain the reward of immortality. For since man consists of two parts, body and soul, of which the one is earthly, and the other heavenly, two lives have been assigned to man. The first, which is appointed for the body, is transitory. The other, which belongs to the soul, is everlasting. We received the first at our birth. We attain to the latter by striving, that immortality might not be available to man without some difficulties… For this reason He has given us this present life, that we may either lose the true and eternal life by our sins, or win it by our virtue.”

This doctrine then, that faith without synergistic works is dead, being alone, that our works do play a part in salvation, was as consistently held and practiced as much or more so than practically any other recorded doctrine of the early pre-Augustine church.

Now, to the other group, the "they" that these early writers spoke against, "they" did believe that they were "preordained for certain salvation". Here is what Irenaeus had to say about "them"…

Irenaeus, Against Heretics, book 1, chap 6-
2. …they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct... they affirm that they cannot in any measure… lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions in which they may be involved…
4. …they tell us that… it is not conduct of any kind which leads into (heaven), but the seed sent forth thence in a feeble, immature state, and here brought to perfection.

Have you guessed who had been saying such things the church charged as heretical and at whom therefore such writings were directed? Why, it was none other than the Gnostics. The one's who denied that Jesus came in the flesh, of which the Apostle John labeled particularly as being deceivers and of the spirit of antichrist-

“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world”. -1 John 4:3

“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist”. -2 John 1:7

This second group – the Gnostics, is neither a newly exposed doctrine, nor a mystery to the church. I have already quoted how that the early church understood this distinction. Here are sample quotes from Contemporary Christians demonstrating the clear understanding of the difference in Judeo-Christian "faith" from Gnostic-philosophic "faith."

"While Judaism and Christianity hold that salvation is attained through submission and obedience to God, gnosticism- which has many forms and varieties – generally emphasizes salvation through an esoteric possession of knowledge of universal mysteries." – Two Religions in One Church, by Art Moore, pg 26, WhistleBlower magazine, August, 2002.

Let me point out that the word "Gnosis" literally means "knowledge." Consider that in the highlighting above and in the following…

"Faith…
"2. Philosophical. Faith viewed philosophically, must be regarded as lying at the basis of all knowledge.
"3. Theological. Faith is not simply the assent of the intellect to revealed truth; it is the practical submission of the entire man to the guidance and control of such truth. 'The devils believe and tremble'… In illustration may be cited particularly John 3:18-21; Rom. 2:7-8; 4:5-12; Heb. Chap. 11; James 2:14-26" – Unger's Bible Dictionary.

Biblical faith is "the practical submission of the entire man."

Philosophical faith is that which is relying on "the basis of knowledge."

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” -Colossians 2:8

“And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.” -Matthew 3:9

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.” -Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.

continued...

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Part 3

More quotes from early disciples of the apostles demonstrating that with one voice they testified against the antichristian-gnostic-inspired doctrine of “faith alone”:

“The way of light, then, is as follows. If any one desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works.” Barnabus (c. 70-130 AD) https://biblehub.com/library/barnabas/the_epistle_of_barnabas_/chapter_xix_the_way_of_light.htm

“It is well, therefore, that he who has learned the judgments of the Lord, as many as have been written, should walk in them. For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things [1718] shall be destroyed with his works.” https://biblehub.com/library/barnabas/the_epistle_of_barnabas_/chapter_xxi_conclusion.htm

“Let us cleave then to His blessing, and consider what are the means of possessing it. Let us think over the things which have taken place from the beginning.For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith? Isaac, with perfect confidence, as if knowing what was to happen, cheerfully yielded himself as a sacrifice. Jacob, through reason of his brother, went forth with humility from his own land, and came to Laban and served him; and there was given to him the sceptre of the twelve tribes of Israel.” Clement of Rome (c. 96) https://biblehub.com/library/clement/the_first_epistle_of_clement_to_the_corinthians/chapter_xxxi_let_us_see_by.htm

“Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.” Clement of Rome (c. 96) https://biblehub.com/library/clement/the_first_epistle_of_clement_to_the_corinthians/chapter_xxx_let_us_do_those.htm

“Take heed, beloved, lest His many kindnesses lead to the condemnation of us all. [For thus it must be] unless we walk worthy of Him, and with one mind do those things which are good and well-pleasing in His sight.” Clement of Rome (c. 96) https://biblehub.com/library/clement/the_first_epistle_of_clement_to_the_corinthians/chapter_xxi_let_us_obey_god.htm

“Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith towards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vainglory and ambition. For they that do such things are hateful to God; and not only they that do them, but also those that take pleasure in them that do them.” Clement of Rome (c. 96) https://biblehub.com/library/clement/the_first_epistle_of_clement_to_the_corinthians/chapter_xxxv_immense_is_this_reward.htm

“so that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that ye are indeed the members of His Son.” Ignatius (c. 105) https://biblehub.com/library/ignatius/the_epistle_of_ignatius_to_the_ephesians/chapter_iv_the_same_continued.htm

“The tree is made manifest by its fruit; so those that profess themselves to be Christians shall be recognised by their conduct. For there is not now a demand for mere profession, but that a man be found continuing in the power of faith to the end.” Ignatius (c. 105) https://biblehub.com/library/ignatius/the_epistle_of_ignatius_to_the_ephesians/chapter_xiv_exhortations_to_faith_and.htm

“The first of them, who is clasping her hands, is called Faith. Through her the elect of God are saved. Another, who has her garments tucked up and acts with vigour, is called Self-restraint. She is the daughter of Faith. Whoever then follows her will become happy in his life, because he will restrain himself from all evil works, believing that, if he restrain himself from all evil desire, he will inherit eternal life.” Hermas (c. 150) http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.ii.ii.iii.html?highlight=clasping,her#highlight

“that He may bestow on them the blessing which He has promised them, with much glory and joy, if only they shall keep the commandments of God which they have received in great faith.” Hermas (c. 150) http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.ii.ii.i.html?highlight=glory,and,joy#highlight

“Fear, then, the Lord, and you will live to Him, and as many as fear Him and keep His commandments will live to God.” “Why,” said I, “sir, did you say in regard to those that keep His commandments, that they will live to God?” “Because,” says he, “all creation fears the Lord, but all creation does not keep His commandments. They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them.” Hermas (c. 150) http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.ii.iii.vii.html?highlight=you,will,live,if#highlight

Many more could be added to this list, but I don’t have that much time and its doubtful that anyone who actually needs to read these will.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Bahmer,

(Oops, this was supposed to be above the last two posts. But I was in a hurry to go to lunch with family. Oh well)...

Without hesitation or reservation, I adamantly deny that I have anything in common with the folks you have described. The New Testament is a New Covenant and the old has been annulled and replaced by the new, and, I am perfectly happy, morally, to eat pork (although I don’t hardly ever because of the way it is raised in America, after seeing the movie called “What the health” that exposes how bad and unhealthy the pork industry in the US is.) I do not keep a Saturday, or any other day, sabbath, as the NT rest is the rest in the Holy Spirit. Let me know if there are any other such details you’d like to know where I stand on.

The Bible says "1But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction. 2Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned." 2 Peter 2:1-2


I have come to my conclusions and beliefs, not by jumping to conclusions, by studying both the Bible, and early Christian history. I may not be a “scholar” in the formal sense, but I have read all the early writings I’ve been able to get my hands on. That simply means, not only did Christianity not materialize in a void, but that teachings that have led away from the faith are clearly documented in the historic record. Just as the abuses of the Roman Catholic Church can be discovered in the “fossil record” of the church, so can many other, later, extrabiblical doctrines be discovered.

The dirty little secret of the "faith alone" crowd, is that absolutely and irrefutably none of the approved disciples of any apostle, Paul included, understood Paul in the way he is interpreted by "faith alone" Evangelicals. Not one.

I witnessed to a Mormon I was working with, and in our conversations told him that the Mormon idea of one god begetting another god begetting another god to infinity was originally only believed by antichristian gnostics. He replied, "Well then, I guess I'm a Gnostic."

What I'm going to quote for you now is historic evidence proving conclusively, for those who have ears to hear, that only gnostics believed anything like "faith only." Only Gnostics believed that salvation did not require it to be in synergy with works, but they called it "knowledge" (gnosis). That is because of their extreme dualistic view, that flesh is evil and thus could not contribute any part to salvation. That idea is totally refuted by the simple fact that when God had created all things, including man, He said it is “very good.”

The way that gnostic, "workless salvation" idea got into the heads of Calvin and Luther was because both were Augustinian monks. And Augustine had been a Manichaean gnostic and brought many of those ideas with him, rather than repenting of them, when he became a Christian. I've read where Eastern Orthodox Christians claimed Augustine became a Christian only because by his time it had become illegal not to be. Thus all "Protestants" who hold “faith alone” are dogmatically descended from Calvin and Luther, and also, by that fact, descended from Gnosticism.

One of the characteristics of gnostics was that their doctrines were always changing and evolving, which means it wouldn't be realistic to think that the doctrines of today's gnostics would have to align perfectly to prove gnostic influence. The way the Bible prophesied of this was here:

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." 2 Timothy 3:13

This explains why teachers of gnostic doctrines, like "faith only," have gotten steadily more sophisticated in their delivery since Mani, Augustine, Luther and Calvin.

On the other hand, the apostle Paul put great confidence in the fact that his disciples understood what he had taught them. He wrote:

"The things which you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit the same to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also." 2 Timothy 2:2

"2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being revealed that you are a letter of Christ, served by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone, but in tablets that are hearts of flesh." 2 Corinthians 3:2-3

These are the types of scriptures that inspired me to search and study out what the disciples of the apostles believed. And that is why my doctrine and teachings appear so different than those of today’s “theologians” like Zemirah. Because I have gone back to find out what the disciples of the apostles understood the apostles to mean.

And I can tell you quite emphatically and confidently that NO disciple of Paul, other than gnostics, can be found on record that believed that salvation was by "faith alone." That "letter", that Paul referred to, in 2 Cor. 3, being his disciples, served by him, well, they gave a different message clearly and consistently, as I will quote in their own words and let them, Paul's letter to the world, testify here.

Bahmer, what is the likelihood of Paul saying his disciples were his letter to the world, and all of them, to a man, argued against the idea of "faith alone", if that is what Paul meant?

To be an honest Evangelical, when faced with the historic evidence, one would have to admit Paul utterly failed in getting his message to his disciples in his lifetime, and only the anti-Christian Gnostics came close to understanding him, and, furthermore, that only the doctrinal descendants of gnostics, those influenced by gnosticism, perfected it.

Will you, then, after reading the testimonies of the disciples of the apostles, who, in one voice spoke adamantly and consistently against the "faith alone" doctrine, have as much integrity as that Mormon to also reply, "Well then, I guess I'm a Gnostic"?

Because, by their acceptance of the "salvation by faith alone without faith being in synergy with works" doctrine, that is what Zemirah, Rose, and Parky are saying, whether they realize it, admit it, and verbalize it or not, and you too, so you may as well go ahead and admit it like that Mormon did. At least he was honest enough to admit it. And along with that, you'd have to admit that you are claiming to know better what Paul meant than his own, direct disciples did.

Continued with part two, the cloud of testimony of many witnesses against the "faith alone" false doctrine.

Continued (now in part two above!)...

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

You tried to explain your convoluted point in at least 3 posts and over 3500 words.

I will explain my simple point in two sentences consisting of just over 30 words

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

It is written again:

Matthew 4:3... “The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." 4But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"
5Then the devil took him...
6and said to him,

“...it is written,
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Matthew 4:7Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written...

“5...The Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6But rise up, and enter into the city, and you will be told what you must do.'" Acts 9:5-6

“And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” Acts 22:16

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10

“Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” Jude 1:3

“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” 2 Timothy 4:3

“Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?” Luke 6:46

“5...The Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6But rise up, and enter into the city, and you will be told what you must do.'" Acts 9:5-6

“And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” Acts 22:16

“16Don't you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto you were delivered. 18Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness. 19I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification.
20For when you were servants of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22But now, being made free from sin, and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification, and the result of eternal life...” Romans 6:16:22



“3This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4One who says, "I know him," and doesn't keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn't in him. 5But whoever keeps his word, God's love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him: 6he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.” 1 John 2:3-6

“He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Revelation 3:21

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

So you are saying the words of Paul were actually from Satanl!!??

I'm SPEECHLESS is all I can say.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Nope, not anymore than Jesus negated Psalm 91:10-12 in Matthew 4. I showed that you are doing the work of Satan by taking one verse of scripture out of context and thereby negating the commandments of God.

"44You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn't stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and its father." John 8:44

And you are blind to that because it is written:

"because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God's law, neither indeed can it be." Romans 8:7

You negate Paul's own explanation in Romans 6:16-22...

"17Now I beg you, brothers, look out for those who are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and turn away from them. 18For those who are such don't serve our Lord, Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by their smooth and flattering speech, they deceive the hearts of the innocent. 19For your obedience has become known to all. I rejoice therefore over you. "Romans 16:17-19

"Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, said the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, said the LORD." Jeremiah 23:32

"But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings." Jeremiah 23:22

"The visions of your prophets were empty and deceptive; they did not expose your guilt to ward off your captivity. The oracles they saw for you were empty and misleading." Jeremiah 23:31

16Don't you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? . Romans 6:16

"34Jesus answered them, "Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35A bondservant doesn't live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

"17But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto you were delivered. 18Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness. 19I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification." Romans 6:17-19