Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

What you said in 6 lengthy posts at hundreds, if not thousands of words, can be simply summed up in the less than 100 words of Romans 10:9-13 (which I partially quoted in my original post by the way):

That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

And you’re right, faith without works is dead faith because works are EVIDENCE of your faith.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

If you don’t want to read it, that’s your prerogative. But if you aren't willing to read it, then I would think you wouldn’t attempt to refute what it already addresses.

James said faith and works are in synergy, that is incompatible with mere “evidence”. That is not what James said, so you are saying you know better than James.

No one in the Bible ever applied your formula.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

As with your past pretzel like, multitudinous, twisted postings, Tommy Raddatz; One verse, Proverbs 10:19, from the wisdom God gave Solomon, repeated in fourteen Bible versions, accompanied by seven cross reference verses of reinforcement suffices.

Nothing more is required.


Holman Christian Standard Bible
When there are many words, sin is unavoidable , but the one who controls his lips is wise.

New American Standard Bible
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.

King James Bible
In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips [is] wise.

Parallel Verses
New International Version
Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues.

New Living Translation
Too much talk leads to sin. Be sensible and keep your mouth shut.

English Standard Version
When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent.

New American Standard Bible
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.

King James Bible
In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
When there are many words, sin is unavoidable, but the one who controls his lips is wise.

International Standard Version
Transgression is at work where people talk too much, but anyone who holds his tongue is prudent.

NET Bible
When words abound, transgression is inevitable, but the one who restrains his words is wise.

American Standard Version
In the multitude of words there wanteth not transgression; But he that refraineth his lips doeth wisely.

English Revised Version
In the multitude of words there wanteth not transgression: but he that refraineth his lips doeth wisely.

Young's Literal Translation
In the abundance of words transgression ceaseth not, And whoso is restraining his lips is wise.

Cross References

James 1:19
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

James 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Job 11:2
Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?

Proverbs 17:27
He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.

Proverbs 18:21
Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Ecclesiastes 5:2
Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

Ecclesiastes 5:3
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

I believe you are referring to these two verses.

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. James 2:17 (NASB)
A faith without works is not real faith at all. It is only a matter of words. James is not saying that we are saved by faith plus works. To hold such a view would be to dishonor the finished work of Christ on the cross. If we were saved by faith plus works, then there would be two saviors—Jesus and ourselves. But the NT is very clear that Christ is the one and only Savior. What James is emphasizing is that we are not saved by a faith of words only but by that kind of faith which results in a life of good works. In other words, works are not the root of salvation but the fruit; they are not the cause but the effect.

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. James 2:26 (NASB)
Here the matter is summarized very beautifully. James compares faith to the human body. He likens works to the spirit. The body (faith) without the spirit (works) is lifeless, useless, valueless. So, faith without works is dead, ineffective, worthless. Obviously, it is a false faith, not genuine saving faith.

To summarize, then, James tests our faith by our answers to the following questions. Am I willing like Abraham to offer the dearest thing in my life to God? Am I willing like Rahab to turn traitor to the world in order to be loyal to Christ?

On last thing…
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)

Couldn't be plainer.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

It's your mind that is important, bahmer, in any stage of life, and especially now.

Whatever worldly knowledge, and spiritual wisdom we have acquired through God's grace during our earthly travails, before we exit, stage right, we now have the "leisure" time to express our praise for His love and for our salvation and the eternity, to be spent in the mansion that awaits each of us, - to His infinite glory.

Soon, we will kneel before Him, and express our gratitude to our triune God in His very presence.

What a "great gettin' up morning" day of glorious joy that will be.

Rose42

Well said.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

So, when you were converted, you weren't told to say the Sinner's Prayer, or anything?

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

When I confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, I did it at the leading of the Holy Spirit. There wasn't anyone telling me to say a sinner's prayer. Read Romans 10:9-13.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

The clarity and brevity with which you just refuted six pages of supposition through your use of the sword of God's Spirit is applauded.

Thank you for relying on "what God has written."

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

I was Spirit-led. And it was for God's glory, not mine.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

So, what you are saying is, you blew right past this...

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:14

And you didn't think to bother asking what this may mean:

"But they were not all obedient (To listen attentively; by implication, to heed or conform to a command or authority) to the good tidings, for Isaiah saith, 'Lord, who did give credence to our report?'" Romans 10:16

And so you feel quoting Romans 10:9-13 grants you the authority to take a pair of scissors and cut out pretty much every verse in the Bible that doesn't align with your conclusion of this passage?

You see, here's the "challenge" with Paul's writings:

"15...our beloved brother Paul — according to the wisdom given to him — did write to you, 16as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, among which things are certain hard to be understood, which the untaught and unstable do wrest, as also the other Writings, unto their own ." 2 Peter 3:15-16

In other words, uneducated and unlearned folks will wrestle with Paul's words, to their own folly and destruction, because they are certainly hard to understand, but you, being an as yet unreborn Christian understood him instantly. Hmm, so you must also think Peter was mistaken.

The only problem with rookies is that they make rookie mistakes, but that's how we learn. The question is, what will you do when you know better.

Paul, also wrote in Romans: "3Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection;" Romans 6:3-5

And again in Galatians:

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:21

Have you ever seen a dead man bury himself?

Let me try to explain to you the "rookie mistake" you committed and are still committing. Have you read about when the devil tempted Jesus in Matthew 4?:

"1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2When he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was hungry afterward. 3The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." 4But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"
5Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
6and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, it is written, 'He will put his angels in charge of you.' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, so that you don't dash your foot against a stone.'"
7Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test the Lord, your God.'" Matthew 4:1-7

You see, when you quote Romans 10:9-13 in order to negate the commandments that have already been established beforehand, then you are "doing the works of the devil" John 8:41-45. Because what you have done is how the devil interprets the commandments of God: he always looks for the loopholes by which he can get out of them, and/or negate them.

It is important to note that the devil quoted Psalm 91:11 (just like you quote Romans 10-9-13) and nothing in Psalms chapter 91 said anything about an exception being "tempting the Lord", for that, Jesus had to go to : "16You shall not tempt Yahweh your God..." Deuteronomy 6:16, which was a completely different book, but which was one that laid down the law. Jesus resorted to previously established commandments, just as I resorted to Acts 2:38 where Peter laid the foundation of the body of Christ by using the keys given him by Jesus to open the door to the kingdom.

So, Jesus' way is to live by every word of God. For Jesus, there was not one verse of the Bible that was more important than another one, particularly when it came to God's commandments. And he reserved a special consternation, anger, contempt, and disapproval of those who made the commandments of God of none effect:

"7But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
8"For you set aside the commandment of God, and hold tightly to the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things."
9He said to them, "Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother;' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban, that is to say, given to God;"' 12then you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother, 13making void (nullifying) word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this." Mark 7:7-13

...And nullifying the commandments of God is exactly what you do by elevating Romans 10:-9-13 to the nullifying of the commandments regarding baptism.

Those of us who love Jesus keep his commands (John 14:15) and they are not grievous:

"2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous." John 5:2-3

You see, the reason Jesus replied to the devil that it was commanded not to tempt God, wasn't out of some begrudging duty, it was because he loved God and didn't want to cross Him. For us, God's commandments aren't grievous, they are wonderful and awesome and holy and righteous! I would no sooner be tempted by Romans 10:9-13 to nullify the commandments, as commandments, to be baptized, than I would jump from a pinnacle because Psalm 91:11 promised my protection without any exceptions!

And that is how you appear to me, because, we are commanded to be baptized. Not only in Acts 2, but other places:

"And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." acts 10:48

And of course, the resident modern day Pharisees around here love that you've joined with them in nullifying the commandments of God. No surprise there.

Sadly, you are so far from "living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God", that your interpretation of Paul's "hard to be understood words" doesn't even align with Paul's own conversion as recorded in Acts 9:1-19; Acts 22:6-21; and Acts 26:12-18.

4He fell on the earth, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5He said, "Who are you, Lord?" The Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6But rise up, and enter into the city, and you will be told what you must do." Acts 9:4-6

“17Ananias departed, and entered into the house. Laying his hands on him, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord, who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me, that you may receive your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he received his sight. He arose and was baptized. 19He took food and was strengthened. Saul stayed several days with the disciples who were at Damascus.” Acts 9:17-19



7I fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' 8I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' He said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you persecute.' 9"Those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they didn't understand the voice of him who spoke to me. 10I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' The Lord said to me, 'Arise, and go into Damascus. There you will be told about all things which are appointed for you to do.'” Acts 22:7-10

“12One Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well reported of by all the Jews who lived in Damascus, 13came to me, and standing by me said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight!' In that very hour I looked up at him. 14He said, 'The God of our fathers has appointed you to know his will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear a voice from his mouth. 15For you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' Acts 22:12-16


“14When we had all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' 15"I said, 'Who are you, Lord?' "He said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16But arise, and stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose: to appoint you a servant and a witness both of the things which you have seen, and of the things which I will reveal to you; 17delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom I send you, 18to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
19"Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.” Acts 26:14-20

So why don't you try telling Paul that the the person who told him what he must do, and even Jesus who authorized those "must do's", were utter failures.

I can tell you another thing, historically, and I'll post that later, the only ones in the period of early Christianity who denied that water baptism was part of being born again, were the antichristian gnostics. I guess they didn't really believe Jesus, either, any more than you, when Jesus said:

"5Jesus answered, "Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.' 8The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
"1Therefore... Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2(although Jesus himself didn't baptize, but his disciples)," John 5:5-8, 7:1

Boy, I guess you must think Romans 10:9-13 even negates Jesus' words!

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

As Jesus admonished me, I've decided to quit casting pearls before swine and shake the dust from my feet.

Rose42

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Absolutely, as with all of Jesus' little flock, there is no other way that any of us can glorify Him, than though His own words, led by His Holy Spirit, as He promised.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Folks,

The Bible says, “Even if our Good News is hid, it is hid in those who are dying; 4 in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them” 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

I simply don’t know how to write in spiritual Braille to someone who is spiritually blind. Since Zemirah obviously can’t, or just won’t, read what I write, I’m under no delusion she’s even reading, so I’m just going to have to address her lies and false accusations to the general audience, and speak of her in the third person.

It is written again:
“7...when the disciples were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them...and continued his speech until midnight... 9A certain young man named Eutychus sat in the window, weighed down with deep sleep. As Paul spoke still longer, being weighed down by his sleep, he fell down from the third story, and was taken up dead.” Acts 20:7,9

Paul said “The things which you learned, received, heard, and saw in me: do these things, and the God of peace will be with you.” Philippians 4:9

“If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him recognize the things which I write to you, that they are the commandment of the Lord”1 Corinthians 14:37

To say that it is a sin, in itself, to be wordy, is to say that Paul was committing a sin to preach from no later than the evening meal into the wee hours of the night. My posts took me about 40 minutes to read through; so about 2/3’s of a normal hour long sermon.

Zemirah s conclusion is beyond absurd. She’s saying Paul sinned in order to teach until midnight. Imagine if the saints of the Bible were allowed and expected to commit adultery, right in the congregation of the saints, in order to teach and explain to them how to live a chaste life, but so-called normal saints weren’t allowed to. That’s what Zemirah is strongly implying. If long windedness in itself is a sin, as Zemirah falsely contends, then Paul was sinning right in front of a whole congregation in order to teach them the truth. That is how absurd Zemirah’s accusation is.

Furthermore, the same is true about writing. The Bible (according to one source) is more than 600,000 words long in its original languages. Of the 66 books, 23 of them are over 10,000 words, of those, 11 are over 20,000 words, and of those, 3 are over 30,000 words. According to Zemirah the Biblical writers must have had to sin in order to write the books of the Bible, because, in her estimation, just writing a lot of words is, in itself, a sin. (https://overviewbible.com/word-counts-books-of-bible/)

In my six, “highly offensive and sinfully wordy posts” (according to Zemirah, that is) I wrote 8,826 words which comes out to 21 pages in MS Word. Has anyone here ever read a book that was over 21 pages and immediately and indignantly thought, “this person is a sinner person for writing that many words”? Are you starting to get the picture?

Now, if you picked up a book and you knew right off it was full of lies meant to deceive you out of something wonderful, would you keep reading and not be offended? My point is, isn’t it obvious that if I’d been actually sinning, like committing adultery in front of you, or murdering someone in front of you all, that each one of you would recognize it right off? But, when you pick up a book that is <gasp> 21 pages long, I seriously doubt your first reaction will be, “why that sinner person!!!”

Anyone without TDS (Truth Derangement Syndrome) would read the scriptures Zemirah posted and realize they are saying that much words lead to sin. They do not say that, “anyone who posts more than x-amount of words on an internet discussion board shall have their place in the lake of fire which is the second death” That is, after all, what Zemirah wants everyone reading my “wordy” posts to believe!

And have you ever noticed that hypocrites have this tenacious propensity toward double standards.

Because Zemirah’s ire against wordiness only goes for people who she doesn’t want to hear from. Zemirah is on record for applauding John Gill, a famous Baptist theologian, for being a “prolific writer.” But according to Zemirah, apparently only folks like John Gill can be excused, subjectively at her whim, by the way, for committing the dreadful and 8th deadly sin of writing prolifically:

May 11, 2019 16:34:11
Zemirah wrote: “He (John Gill) was a profound scholar and a prolific author (ie writer of lots of words).”
TommyRadd wrote:
“Well then, in your estimation and interpretation, he must have been a much bigger sinner than you accuse me of being!”
Zemirah wrote: “I see no comparison. He was the author of well researched, well documented, Academic, Theology books. You, sir, are no John Gill"
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-157519-62.html#2855158

Did you notice that “I” thing? That’s called subjectivity, or private interpretation. It’s all about her personal interpretation of what too many words mean, and by whom they were written!

And not only does she show honor and respect to John Gill for being prolific, she was proud of, and being encouraged, to get wordy early on in this very thread!



Is Zemirah saying here she has an affinity to commit the sin of verbosity?



Is Zemirah promising her friends they can be sure to look for her committing more sin of wordiness in the future? What if it was the sin of stealing she was bragging about? How would that go over?

It is written:

“Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things.” Romans 2:1




Did her friends discourage her from even “avoiding the appearance of evil”? (1 Thessalonisan 5:22)

So, obviously it isn’t just “wordiness” alone that is a sin in her view. Wordiness is only not a sin when her heroes of the faith do it, or when she does it. It is only an evil sin when yours truly posts mountains of data against her beliefs that Zemirah gets offended and cries fowl. That is called showing partiality, or respect of persons, which is, specifically, in and of itself, a very serious and grave sin according to the Bible. In fact, if you commit that one, as she clearly has, you are guilty of the whole law as a transgressor, because it is a sin against commandment number two to love your neighbor:

8However, if you fulfill the royal law, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. 9But if you show partiality (ie respect of persons), you commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” James 2:8-10

Of course, realizing this is a sin, and that she is committing it, goes right over Zemirah’s head. Concerning which, and so that we can understand, it is written again:

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.” Romans 8:7

Zemirah is not subject to the law of love your neighbor, and that is why she feels free to commit the sin of respect of persons (partiality) with impunity (it works kind of like how politicians think the laws don’t apply to them). Is that so hard to understand?

It is true that I’m not as educated, or near the historic or linguistic scholar as someone like John Gill; I never claimed to be. But the fact is, I don't have to be a highly educated theologian to write as I have. There’s certainly no biblical command to be, so it’s all according to Zemirah’s “private interpretation” of who gets to be accused of wordiness and who gets to be applauded for it.

First, I have Paul's command to do as he has done, as quoted above, and second I have this:

“Beloved...contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

This is what I was doing in those 6 posts that Zemirah was so offended at: earnestly contending for the faith that was once for all delivered. And those posts also clearly showed that she was being disobedient to that very admonition, because what she is teaching for salvation is decidedly NOT the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

And, as for my authority, I also have this: “Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city” Matthew 23:34

That’s what I am, a scribe, and what my calling is, is writing. I have had a very clear and specific call from the Lord to write. That is between him and I. Zemirah would like to get between the two of us and set herself over me and judge me as not being called to write and teach through writing. If she is doing that to me, she is doing that to others, and Jesus doesn’t like it one little bit. It is another point which displays her attitudes and actions as being pharisaical:

“Who are you who judge another's servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand.” Romans 14:4

“6Having gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us, if prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of our faith; 7or service, let us give ourselves to service; or he who teaches, to his teaching” Romans 12:6-7

Zemirah has not even attempted to address the points I’ve raised against her false teachings. She has just sought to shut down the validity of me exercising my gifts and callings, period. This is not what a true Christian leader does, or how they act.

“2Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not under compulsion, but voluntarily, not for dishonest gain, but willingly; 3neither as lording it over those entrusted to you, but making yourselves examples to the flock.” 1 Peter 5:2-3

Continued in Part 2