What Do Catholics Really Believe About Salvation. . . . ?
Sep 5, 2018 20:13:26 #
07/15/2018 What do Catholics really believe about Salvation? (Part 1)
C. C. Evans
https://protestantnomore.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/what-do-catholics-really-believe-about-salvation/
When speaking theologically, one can rarely say “Protestants believe” since there are many variables among different denominations, churches and individuals.
Many Protestants claim that Catholics preach a false gospel, and many Protestants claim the same thing about other Protestants (although both groups usually believe in sola scriptura).
Finding a Protestant who truly understands Catholic soteriology – the study or doctrine of salvation – is extremely rare.
The straw-man logical fallacy of a “works-based salvation” is the most prevalent misapprehension (more on that later).
To understand what people believe, understanding their definitions of words is crucial.
Misunderstanding terminology causes confusion among Protestants, and between Catholics and Protestants, since the same theologically technical term is often used to mean different things.
For instance, the Protestant reformers developed a new concept of justification called “forensic justification” –
Which created an ontological and chronological dichotomy between justification and sanctification (note that this was an historical invention).
When a Protestant uses the word “justification” they might mean “salvation”, “forgiveness”, “regeneration” or “belief” (with or without “repentance”) or they might mean “forensic justification”, as distinct from “actual sanctification” (being considered holy, rather than made holy).
However, Catholics might mean “justification” as something which is both “imputed” and “infused,” and/ or as something “intertwined with regeneration and sanctification”.
As the Catechism defines it, “Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man” (CCC 2019).
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
So, for the Catholic, justification involves an actual regeneration, an actual rebirth, not just a forensic declaration of justice with an imputation of Christ’s righteousness alone, but a real being made just, and an infusion of Christ’s actual righteousness accompanying the imputation.
Behold all things are new, and the being made righteous is as actual as the forgiveness, not the “dung heap covered in snow” that Luther spoke of.
Even common terms can cause misunderstandings.
For instance, the word “salvation”.
Some Protestants think “salvation” is a once-for-all, punctiliar event (I was saved on Wednesday) – a thing you are (saved) or aren’t (unsaved).
Other Protestants think “salvation” is a process (sometimes started by a punctiliar event like belief, or baptism of water, or baptism of the Holy Spirit)
A thing you currently are (if you have confessed your sins, and aren’t living in sin), and hope to continue to be (the hope of salvation), but might choose to reject (by sinning against your faith, or becoming apostate) since you haven’t yet persevered until the end.
Catholics are closer to the second kind of Protestants, and will say things like, “I was saved, am being saved and will be saved” –
Being “saved” is a thing you currently are (by the regeneration of the Spirit in the waters of baptism) and hope to continue to be (the hope of salvation), but might choose to reject (by sinning against your faith) since you haven’t yet persevered until the end.
Note that this doesn’t mean that we are unsure of our “salvation” (we know when we are in a state of grace) –
We simply don’t presume we will persevere to the end .
Hebrews 3:14
Or that God will force us to be with him even if we choose to reject him (Hebrews 3:18).
We don’t lose our faith in such a rejection, but, unless we repent, and confess, such a rejection might be our final answer
(Hebrews 3:12; I John 1:9).
The Catholic Church has always taught that we are saved by grace alone.
Earlier I mentioned the straw-man logical fallacy of a “works-based salvation” (“semi-Pelagianism”).
Protestants who make this accusation confuse soteriological terminology –
Particularly the distinctions between “grace” and “faith”, and the relationship between “justification” and “sanctification”.
They also ignore the historical meaning of all pre-Protestant theology, and current Catholic definitions, to “prove” the “errors” they presuppose.
It’s salient to note that there are some (very few) Protestant groups who are “legalistic” and believe that following certain “laws” will obligate God to save them;
However, most who are accused of believing a “works-based salvation” are theologically misunderstood.
Naturally, I am speaking of the theologically adept, not those who are simply poorly educated – Catholic and Protestant – and think things like, “My good deeds will outweigh the bad stuff I’ve done” rather than trusting in Christ alone for salvation.
Catholics do believe that our works (good or bad) have consequences (Matthew 7:15-27).
We also believe that our good works are meritorious (not filthy rags¹), that is to say, that God rewards them – not just in heaven, but here and now as we are being saved.
(Hebrews 11:6).
We also believe that merit (grace made operative through faith and works) helps us be saved (made just – justified, not merely reckoned just, and made holy – sanctified, not merely reckoned holy) because.
God’s grace, our cooperation with grace activates its saving power (the power is inherent in the grace, not our cooperation), infusing holiness (sanctification) and growing deep roots which enable us to persevere and bear good fruit.
To put it more simply, Catholics believe that all acts of faith, hope and love toward God, and our neighbors, are preceded and enabled by God’s grace (Ephesians 2:8-10; CCC 1996).
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
Thus, it isn’t correct that we trust in our works for our salvation – Catholicism is not legalistic.
Rather, our works (prepared by grace for us to walk in) help us by sanctifying us, building up the body of Christ and worshiping God in a manner that pleases him.
The Sacraments hold a special place in Catholic soteriology.
“Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification”
(Catechismus concil. Trident., n. 4, ex St. Augustine, “De Catechizandis rudibus”).
Although the manner of their instrumental causality is a mystery, it is clear that the instrumental causality is through grace alone, “And man is made a member of Christ through grace alone.”
(St. Thomas, Summa, A[1]; Q[62], A[1]).
www.sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum514.htm
So you see, Catholics believe in one faith, which works (not to be mistaken by sound exegesis with “works of the [Jewish] law”), but the charges that this (somehow) negates grace, or that we believe in grace plus works, are false.
Some say that faith plus works is the same thing as grace plus works, but they are in error –
Because it would be inconsistent to say that the faith itself can be a gift of grace, but works cannot be.
Furthermore, truncating faith and works does not prevent the error of boasting – one could boast in their faith just as much as they could boast in their works (as if our belief contractually obligated God to save us apart from the law of grace, or made us superior to those without faith).
It is the grace that prevents us from boasting, so even though we work to cooperate with that grace in what we believe and what we do, it is “all of grace” not of our faith alone, nor of our works alone; not done in ourselves, but in Christ.
We are saved by the law of grace, through the gift of grace:
An actual faith which works.
The doctrine of salvation by grace alone is clear in scripture, the fathers, the councils and papal teaching;
One of the clearest articulations came from the Council of Trent (Decree on Justification: Chapter V; Canons I, II and III on Justification).
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
A formulation that would be accurate, but not official, since it is my own, is that man is saved by Jesus Christ alone, by the grace of God alone, through the gift of actual grace in faith and works.
Our righteousness is imputed (made possible by Christ) and infused (activated to the full strength the grace contains) by our faith and works.
Again, both the faith and the good works are gifts of grace, as it is written,
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them
(Ephesians 2:8-10 RSV-CE).
www.ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp
Not everything the Catholic church teaches about soteriology – the study of salvation – is dogmatic, so you will find variations within some aspects of Catholic soteriological doctrine.
However, in addition to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (esp. Article 2, Grace and Justification – CCC 1987 – 2029).
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
(End Part 1)
C. C. Evans
https://protestantnomore.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/what-do-catholics-really-believe-about-salvation/
When speaking theologically, one can rarely say “Protestants believe” since there are many variables among different denominations, churches and individuals.
Many Protestants claim that Catholics preach a false gospel, and many Protestants claim the same thing about other Protestants (although both groups usually believe in sola scriptura).
Finding a Protestant who truly understands Catholic soteriology – the study or doctrine of salvation – is extremely rare.
The straw-man logical fallacy of a “works-based salvation” is the most prevalent misapprehension (more on that later).
To understand what people believe, understanding their definitions of words is crucial.
Misunderstanding terminology causes confusion among Protestants, and between Catholics and Protestants, since the same theologically technical term is often used to mean different things.
For instance, the Protestant reformers developed a new concept of justification called “forensic justification” –
Which created an ontological and chronological dichotomy between justification and sanctification (note that this was an historical invention).
When a Protestant uses the word “justification” they might mean “salvation”, “forgiveness”, “regeneration” or “belief” (with or without “repentance”) or they might mean “forensic justification”, as distinct from “actual sanctification” (being considered holy, rather than made holy).
However, Catholics might mean “justification” as something which is both “imputed” and “infused,” and/ or as something “intertwined with regeneration and sanctification”.
As the Catechism defines it, “Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man” (CCC 2019).
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
So, for the Catholic, justification involves an actual regeneration, an actual rebirth, not just a forensic declaration of justice with an imputation of Christ’s righteousness alone, but a real being made just, and an infusion of Christ’s actual righteousness accompanying the imputation.
Behold all things are new, and the being made righteous is as actual as the forgiveness, not the “dung heap covered in snow” that Luther spoke of.
Even common terms can cause misunderstandings.
For instance, the word “salvation”.
Some Protestants think “salvation” is a once-for-all, punctiliar event (I was saved on Wednesday) – a thing you are (saved) or aren’t (unsaved).
Other Protestants think “salvation” is a process (sometimes started by a punctiliar event like belief, or baptism of water, or baptism of the Holy Spirit)
A thing you currently are (if you have confessed your sins, and aren’t living in sin), and hope to continue to be (the hope of salvation), but might choose to reject (by sinning against your faith, or becoming apostate) since you haven’t yet persevered until the end.
Catholics are closer to the second kind of Protestants, and will say things like, “I was saved, am being saved and will be saved” –
Being “saved” is a thing you currently are (by the regeneration of the Spirit in the waters of baptism) and hope to continue to be (the hope of salvation), but might choose to reject (by sinning against your faith) since you haven’t yet persevered until the end.
Note that this doesn’t mean that we are unsure of our “salvation” (we know when we are in a state of grace) –
We simply don’t presume we will persevere to the end .
Hebrews 3:14
Or that God will force us to be with him even if we choose to reject him (Hebrews 3:18).
We don’t lose our faith in such a rejection, but, unless we repent, and confess, such a rejection might be our final answer
(Hebrews 3:12; I John 1:9).
The Catholic Church has always taught that we are saved by grace alone.
Earlier I mentioned the straw-man logical fallacy of a “works-based salvation” (“semi-Pelagianism”).
Protestants who make this accusation confuse soteriological terminology –
Particularly the distinctions between “grace” and “faith”, and the relationship between “justification” and “sanctification”.
They also ignore the historical meaning of all pre-Protestant theology, and current Catholic definitions, to “prove” the “errors” they presuppose.
It’s salient to note that there are some (very few) Protestant groups who are “legalistic” and believe that following certain “laws” will obligate God to save them;
However, most who are accused of believing a “works-based salvation” are theologically misunderstood.
Naturally, I am speaking of the theologically adept, not those who are simply poorly educated – Catholic and Protestant – and think things like, “My good deeds will outweigh the bad stuff I’ve done” rather than trusting in Christ alone for salvation.
Catholics do believe that our works (good or bad) have consequences (Matthew 7:15-27).
We also believe that our good works are meritorious (not filthy rags¹), that is to say, that God rewards them – not just in heaven, but here and now as we are being saved.
(Hebrews 11:6).
We also believe that merit (grace made operative through faith and works) helps us be saved (made just – justified, not merely reckoned just, and made holy – sanctified, not merely reckoned holy) because.
God’s grace, our cooperation with grace activates its saving power (the power is inherent in the grace, not our cooperation), infusing holiness (sanctification) and growing deep roots which enable us to persevere and bear good fruit.
To put it more simply, Catholics believe that all acts of faith, hope and love toward God, and our neighbors, are preceded and enabled by God’s grace (Ephesians 2:8-10; CCC 1996).
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
Thus, it isn’t correct that we trust in our works for our salvation – Catholicism is not legalistic.
Rather, our works (prepared by grace for us to walk in) help us by sanctifying us, building up the body of Christ and worshiping God in a manner that pleases him.
The Sacraments hold a special place in Catholic soteriology.
“Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification”
(Catechismus concil. Trident., n. 4, ex St. Augustine, “De Catechizandis rudibus”).
Although the manner of their instrumental causality is a mystery, it is clear that the instrumental causality is through grace alone, “And man is made a member of Christ through grace alone.”
(St. Thomas, Summa, A[1]; Q[62], A[1]).
www.sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum514.htm
So you see, Catholics believe in one faith, which works (not to be mistaken by sound exegesis with “works of the [Jewish] law”), but the charges that this (somehow) negates grace, or that we believe in grace plus works, are false.
Some say that faith plus works is the same thing as grace plus works, but they are in error –
Because it would be inconsistent to say that the faith itself can be a gift of grace, but works cannot be.
Furthermore, truncating faith and works does not prevent the error of boasting – one could boast in their faith just as much as they could boast in their works (as if our belief contractually obligated God to save us apart from the law of grace, or made us superior to those without faith).
It is the grace that prevents us from boasting, so even though we work to cooperate with that grace in what we believe and what we do, it is “all of grace” not of our faith alone, nor of our works alone; not done in ourselves, but in Christ.
We are saved by the law of grace, through the gift of grace:
An actual faith which works.
The doctrine of salvation by grace alone is clear in scripture, the fathers, the councils and papal teaching;
One of the clearest articulations came from the Council of Trent (Decree on Justification: Chapter V; Canons I, II and III on Justification).
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
A formulation that would be accurate, but not official, since it is my own, is that man is saved by Jesus Christ alone, by the grace of God alone, through the gift of actual grace in faith and works.
Our righteousness is imputed (made possible by Christ) and infused (activated to the full strength the grace contains) by our faith and works.
Again, both the faith and the good works are gifts of grace, as it is written,
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them
(Ephesians 2:8-10 RSV-CE).
www.ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp
Not everything the Catholic church teaches about soteriology – the study of salvation – is dogmatic, so you will find variations within some aspects of Catholic soteriological doctrine.
However, in addition to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (esp. Article 2, Grace and Justification – CCC 1987 – 2029).
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
(End Part 1)
Sep 5, 2018 20:14:52 #
07/15/2018 What do Catholics really believe about Salvation? (Part 2)
C. C. Evans
https://protestantnomore.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/what-do-catholics-really-believe-about-salvation/
The Council of Trent clarified Catholic soteriology regarding the new ideas of the reformers, and the Decree and Canons on Justification from the Sixth Session are succinct and delightfully dense –
If you would like the clarity of context and are theologically minded, you ought to read them in their entirety.
In addition to the authoritative, decredal documents from Trent, there are a few significant times when the Catholic Church has met with Protestant leaders to discuss key differences like justification.
Perhaps the earliest was the Diet of Ratisbon (also called the “Diet/ Colloquy of Regensburg”) in 1541 (the fifth article discusses justification),
but there are also more recent meetings which resulted in documents like the document “Salvation and the Church” written with Anglicans in 1986, the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document in 1994, the follow-up document entitled “The Gift of Salvation” in 1998,
www.anglicancommunion.org/ministry/ecumenical/dialogues/catholic/arcic/docs/salvation_and_the_church.cfm
www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9405/articles/mission.html
www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9801/articles/gift.html
The Joint Declaration on Justification with Lutherans in 1999 and the Official Response to that Declaration. Some pertinent quotes from those documents are as follows:
www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html
It is secure and wholesome teaching that the sinner is justified by a living and effectual faith, for through such faith we will be acceptable to God and accepted for the sake of Christ.
A living faith, therefore, appropriates the mercy in Christ and believes that the righteousness which is in Christ will be freely reckoned for nothing and also receives the promise of the Holy Spirit.
(Regensburg, Article 5)
Justification and sanctification are two aspects of the same divine act (1 Cor 6:11).
This does not mean that justification is a reward for faith or works:
Rather, when God promises the removal of our condemnation and gives us a new standing before him, this justification is indissolubly linked with his sanctifying recreation of us in grace.
This transformation is being worked out in the course of our pilgrimage, despite the imperfections and ambiguities of our lives.
God’s grace effects what he declares: his creative word imparts what it imputes. By pronouncing us righteous, God also makes us righteous.
He imparts a righteousness which is his and becomes ours
[2]. (ARCIC II, Salvation and the Church, 15)
www.anglicancommunion.org/ministry/ecumenical/dialogues/catholic/arcic/docs/salvation_and_the_church.cfm
Together we confess:
By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works
(JDDJ, 15). www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
The following are some further technical areas of high theology that cause confusion between Catholics and some of our separated Protestant brothers and sisters:
The concept of sola fide – salvation by faith alone – was condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapters VI, X and XI; Canons IX and XIX on Justification).
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
2. The concept of forensic justification, that righteousness is imputation alone was condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter VII; Canons XI, XXV and cf. Canon XXXI on Justification).
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
3. The concept of Free Grace Theology (pejoratively called “Easy Believism” by some who call their view “Lordship Salvation”) – that belief alone, apart from obedience, ensures salvation – was condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter IX and XII; Canons XII, XIII, XIV, XIV and XXI on Justification). However, this does not rule out the Arminian concept of “free will” which is compatible with the Molinist² and Congruist² concepts of how grace and free will meet (predestination based on foreknowledge).
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
4. The modern concept of Eternal Security – once saved, always saved – was condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter XI, XIII, XIV and XV; Canons on Justification XVI, XXIII, XXVII and XXVIII).
5. The supralapsarian concept of unconditional reprobation (double-predestination: the concept that some are predestined to heaven – the elect, and others are predestined to hell –
The reprobate) was anticipated and condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter VIII, Canon VI, X and XVII on Justification).
However, this does not rule out the Calvinist concept of “unconditional election” which is compatible with the Thomistic² (via physical change of the will of the elect) and Augustinian² (via moral pressure on the will of the elect) concepts of how grace and free will meet.
6. The Calvinist concepts of “irresistible grace” and “total depravity” were condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter I, Canons IV, VII and XXII on Justification).
7. The Calvinist concept of “Limited Atonement” – that Christ only died for the elect – was condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter II; Canon XVII on Justification).
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
___________________________________________________________
¹”We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away” (Isaiah 64:6 RSV-CE).
www.ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp
Eisogetes of this verse try to claim that this is a definition of righteous deeds rather than taking the verse in context.
In context, the verse communicates a simile (which could be considered hyperbolic prose) expressing a lament about a people who have fallen into iniquity, not a gloss of what “righteous deeds” are.
²For more information on different Catholic ideas regarding the mysteries of where divine grace and human free-will meet see the Catholic Encylopedia’s articles on Controversies on Grace and the Congregatio de Auxiliis.
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Controversies_on_Grace
(End Part 2)
C. C. Evans
https://protestantnomore.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/what-do-catholics-really-believe-about-salvation/
The Council of Trent clarified Catholic soteriology regarding the new ideas of the reformers, and the Decree and Canons on Justification from the Sixth Session are succinct and delightfully dense –
If you would like the clarity of context and are theologically minded, you ought to read them in their entirety.
In addition to the authoritative, decredal documents from Trent, there are a few significant times when the Catholic Church has met with Protestant leaders to discuss key differences like justification.
Perhaps the earliest was the Diet of Ratisbon (also called the “Diet/ Colloquy of Regensburg”) in 1541 (the fifth article discusses justification),
but there are also more recent meetings which resulted in documents like the document “Salvation and the Church” written with Anglicans in 1986, the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document in 1994, the follow-up document entitled “The Gift of Salvation” in 1998,
www.anglicancommunion.org/ministry/ecumenical/dialogues/catholic/arcic/docs/salvation_and_the_church.cfm
www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9405/articles/mission.html
www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9801/articles/gift.html
The Joint Declaration on Justification with Lutherans in 1999 and the Official Response to that Declaration. Some pertinent quotes from those documents are as follows:
www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html
It is secure and wholesome teaching that the sinner is justified by a living and effectual faith, for through such faith we will be acceptable to God and accepted for the sake of Christ.
A living faith, therefore, appropriates the mercy in Christ and believes that the righteousness which is in Christ will be freely reckoned for nothing and also receives the promise of the Holy Spirit.
(Regensburg, Article 5)
Justification and sanctification are two aspects of the same divine act (1 Cor 6:11).
This does not mean that justification is a reward for faith or works:
Rather, when God promises the removal of our condemnation and gives us a new standing before him, this justification is indissolubly linked with his sanctifying recreation of us in grace.
This transformation is being worked out in the course of our pilgrimage, despite the imperfections and ambiguities of our lives.
God’s grace effects what he declares: his creative word imparts what it imputes. By pronouncing us righteous, God also makes us righteous.
He imparts a righteousness which is his and becomes ours
[2]. (ARCIC II, Salvation and the Church, 15)
www.anglicancommunion.org/ministry/ecumenical/dialogues/catholic/arcic/docs/salvation_and_the_church.cfm
Together we confess:
By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works
(JDDJ, 15). www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
The following are some further technical areas of high theology that cause confusion between Catholics and some of our separated Protestant brothers and sisters:
The concept of sola fide – salvation by faith alone – was condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapters VI, X and XI; Canons IX and XIX on Justification).
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
2. The concept of forensic justification, that righteousness is imputation alone was condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter VII; Canons XI, XXV and cf. Canon XXXI on Justification).
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
3. The concept of Free Grace Theology (pejoratively called “Easy Believism” by some who call their view “Lordship Salvation”) – that belief alone, apart from obedience, ensures salvation – was condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter IX and XII; Canons XII, XIII, XIV, XIV and XXI on Justification). However, this does not rule out the Arminian concept of “free will” which is compatible with the Molinist² and Congruist² concepts of how grace and free will meet (predestination based on foreknowledge).
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
4. The modern concept of Eternal Security – once saved, always saved – was condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter XI, XIII, XIV and XV; Canons on Justification XVI, XXIII, XXVII and XXVIII).
5. The supralapsarian concept of unconditional reprobation (double-predestination: the concept that some are predestined to heaven – the elect, and others are predestined to hell –
The reprobate) was anticipated and condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter VIII, Canon VI, X and XVII on Justification).
However, this does not rule out the Calvinist concept of “unconditional election” which is compatible with the Thomistic² (via physical change of the will of the elect) and Augustinian² (via moral pressure on the will of the elect) concepts of how grace and free will meet.
6. The Calvinist concepts of “irresistible grace” and “total depravity” were condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter I, Canons IV, VII and XXII on Justification).
7. The Calvinist concept of “Limited Atonement” – that Christ only died for the elect – was condemned at Trent (Decree on Justification Chapter II; Canon XVII on Justification).
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
___________________________________________________________
¹”We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away” (Isaiah 64:6 RSV-CE).
www.ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp
Eisogetes of this verse try to claim that this is a definition of righteous deeds rather than taking the verse in context.
In context, the verse communicates a simile (which could be considered hyperbolic prose) expressing a lament about a people who have fallen into iniquity, not a gloss of what “righteous deeds” are.
²For more information on different Catholic ideas regarding the mysteries of where divine grace and human free-will meet see the Catholic Encylopedia’s articles on Controversies on Grace and the Congregatio de Auxiliis.
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Controversies_on_Grace
(End Part 2)
Sep 5, 2018 21:27:19 #
Doc110 wrote:
07/15/2018 What do Catholics really believe about ... (show quote)
Doc, Interesting material but these articles are quite long. It would be a matter of days if not a week to go through and grasp the content of the links provided. Consider that you have posted a number of these within two days, all of which I found interesting, but time consuming to give any significant amount of thought. Perhaps a little time spacing between posts might be in order?
Sep 5, 2018 23:39:35 #
I’m sorry, Pafret but the article is what it is.
I can’t subtract or add anything words to the article to understand the complexity of the subject.
“Salvation” a difficult complex subject, don’t you agree ?
By God’s Grace, please take the time to understand what the true meaning of “Salvation” and what really means to your very soul, and from a Catholic perspective versus from a a Protestant perspective.
It doesn’t take a simplistic one-liner to understand your faith in God.
It isn’t a ah-ha epiphany moment., I wish it were so.
Salvation your Faith learning about love are incremental moment, as we are just simple meer humans trying to understand and are just trying to to explain, to understand the complexity of God, and his salvation.
e.g.
God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Countless book have been written on theese subjects also alone, of the Holy Trinity, and countless books also have been written on your salvation.
Or do you want to go down the low road salvation history’s explanation of “Once saved, always saved.” Please Pafret, . . .
This salvation also leaves out forgiveness of sin, reconciliation or confession and please don’t forget the purifying of your very soul of sins before you meet your maker in glorious heaven. . . .
The Catholic teaching on Pergartory, which could take volumess, as in one of my article the teaching example of Tabatha in the New Testament.
So Please take the time to Relish this time and reading about the time to understand, what your “personal Salvation, is all about.
Because we are talking about your lifetime, we are talking about your eternity, with God, that’s if you are saved by his graces, alone, and when that will happen.
Remember that “Sin”, mortal and venial sins are our greatest enemy Against the greatest obstical of Salvation and evil against, Our God . . .
Amen, I believe, let it be so, Amen . . .
Yours in Christ,
Doc110
I can’t subtract or add anything words to the article to understand the complexity of the subject.
“Salvation” a difficult complex subject, don’t you agree ?
By God’s Grace, please take the time to understand what the true meaning of “Salvation” and what really means to your very soul, and from a Catholic perspective versus from a a Protestant perspective.
It doesn’t take a simplistic one-liner to understand your faith in God.
It isn’t a ah-ha epiphany moment., I wish it were so.
Salvation your Faith learning about love are incremental moment, as we are just simple meer humans trying to understand and are just trying to to explain, to understand the complexity of God, and his salvation.
e.g.
God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Countless book have been written on theese subjects also alone, of the Holy Trinity, and countless books also have been written on your salvation.
Or do you want to go down the low road salvation history’s explanation of “Once saved, always saved.” Please Pafret, . . .
This salvation also leaves out forgiveness of sin, reconciliation or confession and please don’t forget the purifying of your very soul of sins before you meet your maker in glorious heaven. . . .
The Catholic teaching on Pergartory, which could take volumess, as in one of my article the teaching example of Tabatha in the New Testament.
So Please take the time to Relish this time and reading about the time to understand, what your “personal Salvation, is all about.
Because we are talking about your lifetime, we are talking about your eternity, with God, that’s if you are saved by his graces, alone, and when that will happen.
Remember that “Sin”, mortal and venial sins are our greatest enemy Against the greatest obstical of Salvation and evil against, Our God . . .
Amen, I believe, let it be so, Amen . . .
Yours in Christ,
Doc110
Sep 6, 2018 12:20:59 #
Doc110 wrote:
I’m sorry, Pafret but the article is what it is. ... (show quote)
My complaint wasn't about content, but about inundaion. In two days at a quick glance you have posted:
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139945-1.html
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139945-1.html
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139936-1.html
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-140017-1.html
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-140014-1.html
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-140009-1.html
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139665-1.html
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139582-1.html
Each of these requires a good deal of time. Wherever you are getting this information may have unlimited amounts of topics on hand, but none of us have unlimited time.
Sep 6, 2018 13:44:53 #
I’m sorry, Pafret but the article are what they are.
You don't say that about the 72 books in the Bible,
We don't say this about the Bible books.
About not having unlimited time or the amounts of topics on hand.
And not have unlimited time not to read the Bible, do we ?.
A lot of times I have a text to speech program that reads the article to me, while I'm doing something else, through my bluetooth portable speaker or headphone.
Could help you're limited amount of time.
You don't say that about the 72 books in the Bible,
We don't say this about the Bible books.
About not having unlimited time or the amounts of topics on hand.
And not have unlimited time not to read the Bible, do we ?.
A lot of times I have a text to speech program that reads the article to me, while I'm doing something else, through my bluetooth portable speaker or headphone.
Could help you're limited amount of time.
Sep 6, 2018 22:44:13 #
Doc110 wrote:
07/15/2018 What do Catholics really believe about ... (show quote)
Doc
There are many false statements in your cut and paste. But also truths.
Protestants, Evangelical Christians or non denominational Christians as a mainstream belief in salvation your post grossly misleads their beliefs in salvation or terminology of words as the post terms.
There are many smaller fringe groups that call themselves Christians but in no way represent the early church beliefs as do the evangelical mainstream Christians.
Having studied theology, Greek, Arabic in studying the Bible, God's inspired word, theologians across America in most all Christian denominations and non denominational churches all agree on salvation.
There is a growing trend in churches that believe in replacement theology. Believing God is done with the Jewish people "God's chosen" people and The gentile church has replaced Israel and the Jewish people. They add works to salvation and have many other dangerous unbiblical beliefs. This would be closer to what might be some truth in your post.
However the author is disingenuous, making false statements of the Protestant /Evangelicals /non denominational Christians.
The catholic salvation and prot/evang Christian salvation without cut and paste or twenty paragraphs, can you please explain to me the difference?
Thanks Doc
Sep 7, 2018 01:49:56 #
Jack,
There is this 16 part video program that The Dominican, Order of Preachers have made. And can be found on youtube.com that I would like you to watch and ponder upon.
To The Heights.
https://www.dominicanajournal.org/to-the-heights/
Jack, I'm not about condensing religious writing, and my thoughts and understanding, into the format usually found here on the OPP forum and it's readers and responders.
That's why I submit and post long articles, and have long and thoughtful replies, in most cases . . . Humor here Jack . . .
But it only seams you want to get to the nitty gritty of the subject.
Thats okay for you, but it's defiantly not my writing and thought style.
Let me ask you a question, Jack what is Love ?
First I want you to think of your, Wife's love, Love for you're family, Love of your Church and then, Love of God ?
Did it happen all at once ? Or was it a slow progression ?
All I'm asking you to do is slow down, as in with the two articles that I posted and was thinking of them, for you.
Sometimes we don't have to be so analytical, and myopic in our thinking. We need to look at the sums and both the totally when we try to understand something.
I'm a Motion picture film major, so when I watch a film I go to enjoy the film first. Then I will purchase the film and see how the film is put together, Dialogue, editing, script, sound, cinema-photoaphy, wardrobe, makeup, stunts, lighting, and director etc.
The same goes, for my Catholic Church belief and faith.
Being a Cradle catholic I don't have the usual struggles that converts or re-vert Catholics have. It is just IS . . . it grows spirituality wave after wave.
I don't have the same struggles that many Protestants have, due to their many types of diversity and theologies, e.g. 33,000 thousand denominations and counting.
Many protestants easily go through 10 to 20 churches in a lifetime, and have seen many schisms and separations that tear people and churches apart.
Jack, your all wounded-up like a top, about religion and you're trying to understand instantaneously and disregarding spirituality needs.
Please slow down and discern God, like fine bottle of wine.
Yes Jesus drank wine, and Saint Paul said to have a drink every once in a while, people are too serious and need to relax.
What you're asking me here is to be instantaneous, spot on, performing magic, and abracadabra stuff.
I don't work that way jack, I'm slow and methodical, just as loving our God and Savior Jesus Christ is with all of us.
Unlike Saint Paul, who got blinded and knocked off his horse going to Damascus to persecute some Christians.
Thats Jesus, being instantaneous.
Saint Paul quotes "Love." the best, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7
(NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Jack, Gods love is mostly patients, . . . we will never fully understand his thoughts, his wisdom, kindness and his love for us.
I can't do the Catholic Church any justice, so I will defer to a well done video series from the Dominic Preaching Order, to answer and understand your questions that you're having.
Their is no simplistic answer your questions, or just one biblical verse, no one chapter or no one book.
I hope you can appreciate my answer to you. And the general direction I'm leading you to in your spiritual journey.
I cant do this for you, it's a journey of your discovery, from ancient times to the current present day.
The Catholic Church has a wealth of knowledge, teaching, historical documentation, Biblical scriptural and Church traditional teaching, Cannon Law, the Magisterium and the Catholic Catechisms. Also the encyclicals of Popes, Bishops, priests, deacons, fryers, brothers and sisters writings, Ecumenical councils and documents written through the ages.
Yours in Christ
Doc110
Here is some history on the Dominicans O.P., founded in 1216 by St. Dominic de Guzman and founder of the Rosary.
The Dominicans motto: The chief motivation for our common life is to live together harmoniously, seeking God with one mind and heart. Quite beautiful don't you think ?
Throughout the succeeding centuries, Dominican Friars have continued to serve the Church as preachers and theologians. St. Thomas Aquinas' a Dominican and Doctor of the Catholic Church, wrote the famous "Summa Theologica."
The Order has passed through times of greatness and decline, but has always stayed constant, in its efforts to serve the Church and its layiety.
They the Dominicans are educated learned men of God and take a vow of poverty, need I say more they are the most humble of this Catholic Holy Orders, e.g.
These are the 9 most well known Catholic religious orders e.g Franciscans, Carthusians, Jesuits, Benedictines, Salesians, Missionaries of Charity, Dominicans, Augustinians and Carmelites.
They were started by some of the most notable men and women of the Catholic faith including St. Francis of Assisi, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Benedict and St. Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Or had one of the most famous female saints like the Carmelite order with St. Therese of Lisieux.
https://dominicanfriars.org/about/history-dominican-friars/
I can give you the Catholic apologist e.g. former Protestant, Dave Armstrong version index, of Salvation.
Salvation, Justification, & “Faith Alone” (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/salvat...
Development of Doctrine (Index Page for Dave Armstrong) - Patheos
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/develo...
Fathers of the Church (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong - Patheos
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2007/03/father...
John Calvin: Catholic Appraisal (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/calvin...
Baptism and Sacramentalism (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/baptis...
A Particularly Clear Statement on Salvation: St. Fulgentius of Ruspe ...
www.calledtocommunion.com/2012/11/a-particularly-c...
Eastern Orthodoxy & Catholicism (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/orthod...
Martin Luther: a Catholic Critique & Appraisal (Index Page) | Dave ...
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/martin...
Saints, Purgatory, & Penance (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/saints...
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism - Catholic biblical apologetics
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrongProxy Highlight
Eucharist, Sacrifice of the Mass, & Liturgical Issues (Index Page ...
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/euchar...
Catholic365.com : Latest Articles By Dave Armstrong
www.catholic365.com/author/dave-armstrong/Proxy Highlight
But I prefer the Catholic steady stream version, that slowly envelopes you, and Jesus Christ teaching and the Holy Spirits version of scriptural guidance understanding in His Church.
When you finally get the message and flow of the Catholic understanding.
Jack your two fast and finite, in you're religious thinking and you have a lot of preconceived religious notions and spiritual baggage. On how and what you understand of the Catholic Church and her teachings.
I'm tired and need to get some rest
Doc110
There is this 16 part video program that The Dominican, Order of Preachers have made. And can be found on youtube.com that I would like you to watch and ponder upon.
To The Heights.
https://www.dominicanajournal.org/to-the-heights/
Jack, I'm not about condensing religious writing, and my thoughts and understanding, into the format usually found here on the OPP forum and it's readers and responders.
That's why I submit and post long articles, and have long and thoughtful replies, in most cases . . . Humor here Jack . . .
But it only seams you want to get to the nitty gritty of the subject.
Thats okay for you, but it's defiantly not my writing and thought style.
Let me ask you a question, Jack what is Love ?
First I want you to think of your, Wife's love, Love for you're family, Love of your Church and then, Love of God ?
Did it happen all at once ? Or was it a slow progression ?
All I'm asking you to do is slow down, as in with the two articles that I posted and was thinking of them, for you.
Sometimes we don't have to be so analytical, and myopic in our thinking. We need to look at the sums and both the totally when we try to understand something.
I'm a Motion picture film major, so when I watch a film I go to enjoy the film first. Then I will purchase the film and see how the film is put together, Dialogue, editing, script, sound, cinema-photoaphy, wardrobe, makeup, stunts, lighting, and director etc.
The same goes, for my Catholic Church belief and faith.
Being a Cradle catholic I don't have the usual struggles that converts or re-vert Catholics have. It is just IS . . . it grows spirituality wave after wave.
I don't have the same struggles that many Protestants have, due to their many types of diversity and theologies, e.g. 33,000 thousand denominations and counting.
Many protestants easily go through 10 to 20 churches in a lifetime, and have seen many schisms and separations that tear people and churches apart.
Jack, your all wounded-up like a top, about religion and you're trying to understand instantaneously and disregarding spirituality needs.
Please slow down and discern God, like fine bottle of wine.
Yes Jesus drank wine, and Saint Paul said to have a drink every once in a while, people are too serious and need to relax.
What you're asking me here is to be instantaneous, spot on, performing magic, and abracadabra stuff.
I don't work that way jack, I'm slow and methodical, just as loving our God and Savior Jesus Christ is with all of us.
Unlike Saint Paul, who got blinded and knocked off his horse going to Damascus to persecute some Christians.
Thats Jesus, being instantaneous.
Saint Paul quotes "Love." the best, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7
(NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Jack, Gods love is mostly patients, . . . we will never fully understand his thoughts, his wisdom, kindness and his love for us.
I can't do the Catholic Church any justice, so I will defer to a well done video series from the Dominic Preaching Order, to answer and understand your questions that you're having.
Their is no simplistic answer your questions, or just one biblical verse, no one chapter or no one book.
I hope you can appreciate my answer to you. And the general direction I'm leading you to in your spiritual journey.
I cant do this for you, it's a journey of your discovery, from ancient times to the current present day.
The Catholic Church has a wealth of knowledge, teaching, historical documentation, Biblical scriptural and Church traditional teaching, Cannon Law, the Magisterium and the Catholic Catechisms. Also the encyclicals of Popes, Bishops, priests, deacons, fryers, brothers and sisters writings, Ecumenical councils and documents written through the ages.
Yours in Christ
Doc110
Here is some history on the Dominicans O.P., founded in 1216 by St. Dominic de Guzman and founder of the Rosary.
The Dominicans motto: The chief motivation for our common life is to live together harmoniously, seeking God with one mind and heart. Quite beautiful don't you think ?
Throughout the succeeding centuries, Dominican Friars have continued to serve the Church as preachers and theologians. St. Thomas Aquinas' a Dominican and Doctor of the Catholic Church, wrote the famous "Summa Theologica."
The Order has passed through times of greatness and decline, but has always stayed constant, in its efforts to serve the Church and its layiety.
They the Dominicans are educated learned men of God and take a vow of poverty, need I say more they are the most humble of this Catholic Holy Orders, e.g.
These are the 9 most well known Catholic religious orders e.g Franciscans, Carthusians, Jesuits, Benedictines, Salesians, Missionaries of Charity, Dominicans, Augustinians and Carmelites.
They were started by some of the most notable men and women of the Catholic faith including St. Francis of Assisi, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Benedict and St. Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Or had one of the most famous female saints like the Carmelite order with St. Therese of Lisieux.
https://dominicanfriars.org/about/history-dominican-friars/
I can give you the Catholic apologist e.g. former Protestant, Dave Armstrong version index, of Salvation.
Salvation, Justification, & “Faith Alone” (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/salvat...
Development of Doctrine (Index Page for Dave Armstrong) - Patheos
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/develo...
Fathers of the Church (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong - Patheos
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2007/03/father...
John Calvin: Catholic Appraisal (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/calvin...
Baptism and Sacramentalism (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/baptis...
A Particularly Clear Statement on Salvation: St. Fulgentius of Ruspe ...
www.calledtocommunion.com/2012/11/a-particularly-c...
Eastern Orthodoxy & Catholicism (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/orthod...
Martin Luther: a Catholic Critique & Appraisal (Index Page) | Dave ...
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/martin...
Saints, Purgatory, & Penance (Index Page) | Dave Armstrong
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/saints...
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism - Catholic biblical apologetics
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrongProxy Highlight
Eucharist, Sacrifice of the Mass, & Liturgical Issues (Index Page ...
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/euchar...
Catholic365.com : Latest Articles By Dave Armstrong
www.catholic365.com/author/dave-armstrong/Proxy Highlight
But I prefer the Catholic steady stream version, that slowly envelopes you, and Jesus Christ teaching and the Holy Spirits version of scriptural guidance understanding in His Church.
When you finally get the message and flow of the Catholic understanding.
Jack your two fast and finite, in you're religious thinking and you have a lot of preconceived religious notions and spiritual baggage. On how and what you understand of the Catholic Church and her teachings.
I'm tired and need to get some rest
Doc110
Sep 7, 2018 14:48:02 #
jack sequim wa wrote:
Doc br There are many false statements in your c... (show quote)
So I'm dangling 300 ft down a cliff, with my arm trapped in a crevice, bleeding out with maybe ten minutes to live and there is no humanly way you can reach me.
I tell you I have been an atheist all my life even after attending Sunday school in my youth. I know I'm dying and seeing my life pass before me realize I was wrong, rejecting God for science.
I ask you knowing that you believe in God " how can I have salvation, eternal life"? I now only have maybe 5 minutes to live.
Are you going to tell me that you will can't, there just isn't enough time, you'll need to recite pages and pages of terminology and with my untapped arm fire up some videos on my phone?
Doc, I asked you a very honest question, will you please step away from an in depth theological study and tell me how according to you and your beliefs I can be saved?
Your post stares it's not so simple, biblically I would disagree. It wasn't complex for the thief on the cross, the woman who washed Jesus's feet,
The paralytic man, Cornelius’s household, and many more. They received salvation and it wasn't very complex.
So how about it?
Sep 7, 2018 18:28:52 #
Jack,
Go and do some real religious research,
I am not going to cherry-pick, one-liner thought and under-simplification of Religious answers.
If you are falling down a 300 foot cliff, try and ask for forgiveness from God and repent of your sins, is the simplest answer that I can give you. Got it . . .
Whether God hears your confession in time, is another question.
1. I've given you plenty of Dave, Armstrongs url links, which is a library wealth of knowledge about the Catholic faith.
b. Also the Dominican Order of preachers, has that 16 video episode "To The Heights." to assist you in your spiritual needs.
https://www.dominicanajournal.org/to-the-heights/
c. Go and talk to a Catholic priest and ask him about you're discernment in joining a RICA program.
d. Please try and think, for your self, . . . for once, . . . and take responsibility for your UnChristian actions, Jack . . .
I don't mean to be UnChristian.
But I really don't want to engage with you, because of your past and present anti-Catholic rhetoric and hate speech.
Engage someone else that can deal with your disingenuous type of Christian fundamentalist behavior.
But your agenda is only a got-ya moment, and I will not be coerced and be made an example of, with you're pushy fundamentalist agenda.
There is an old adage cliche, spoken many times, "Once bitten, twice shy."
I'm not going down your rabbit-hole agenda, and I really don't have to respond to you insincere questioning, of my faith.
If you really want to learn more about the Catholic faith, I've given you ample amount of information to help you with your needs and research.
Jack, most of all, you're disingenuousness is showing for all OPP readers, to see you for who and what you are.
So I ask you from refraining from posting and making inappropriate opinions about my Catholic Church, such as, calling it paeanistic , and that it is is a religious cults.
Jack you happen to be a wolf in sheep clothing.
Jack you have the taint of evilness in your heart, as I perceive from your comments.
Your replies shows your real religious fundamentalist Church discernment.
Mostly I don't think your honest, and or are a nice person.
I'm going to go with my gut felling, on this one, jack
Goodby,
Your's in Christ,
Doc110
Go and do some real religious research,
I am not going to cherry-pick, one-liner thought and under-simplification of Religious answers.
If you are falling down a 300 foot cliff, try and ask for forgiveness from God and repent of your sins, is the simplest answer that I can give you. Got it . . .
Whether God hears your confession in time, is another question.
1. I've given you plenty of Dave, Armstrongs url links, which is a library wealth of knowledge about the Catholic faith.
b. Also the Dominican Order of preachers, has that 16 video episode "To The Heights." to assist you in your spiritual needs.
https://www.dominicanajournal.org/to-the-heights/
c. Go and talk to a Catholic priest and ask him about you're discernment in joining a RICA program.
d. Please try and think, for your self, . . . for once, . . . and take responsibility for your UnChristian actions, Jack . . .
I don't mean to be UnChristian.
But I really don't want to engage with you, because of your past and present anti-Catholic rhetoric and hate speech.
Engage someone else that can deal with your disingenuous type of Christian fundamentalist behavior.
But your agenda is only a got-ya moment, and I will not be coerced and be made an example of, with you're pushy fundamentalist agenda.
There is an old adage cliche, spoken many times, "Once bitten, twice shy."
I'm not going down your rabbit-hole agenda, and I really don't have to respond to you insincere questioning, of my faith.
If you really want to learn more about the Catholic faith, I've given you ample amount of information to help you with your needs and research.
Jack, most of all, you're disingenuousness is showing for all OPP readers, to see you for who and what you are.
So I ask you from refraining from posting and making inappropriate opinions about my Catholic Church, such as, calling it paeanistic , and that it is is a religious cults.
Jack you happen to be a wolf in sheep clothing.
Jack you have the taint of evilness in your heart, as I perceive from your comments.
Your replies shows your real religious fundamentalist Church discernment.
Mostly I don't think your honest, and or are a nice person.
I'm going to go with my gut felling, on this one, jack
Goodby,
Your's in Christ,
Doc110
Sep 8, 2018 12:37:25 #
Doc110 wrote:
Jack, br br Go and do some real religious researc... (show quote)
Christians are to be ready for an answer to their faith.
I won't go into church falsities on this post but you mistake love for evil and eternal life with those unable to give an answer on biblical salvation are at risk.
Isn't it something the one Christian catholic on this forum that I have the utmost respect for was able to tell me how one must be saved in terms a ten year old would unstand, and somehow its overly complicated for you.
I threw out an olive branch, in return for insults, hmmm.
When an atheist tells you that you believe in myths and goat herders do you return evil with evil?
If someone tells you that you have false teachings do you return evil with evil, yes you do.. Except in this case I at least admitted my motives.
I think the one that has a lot of self examination is typing insults to me without let up.
Sep 8, 2018 17:44:15 #
TexaCan
Loc: Homeward Bound!
jack sequim wa wrote:
Christians are to be ready for an answer to their ... (show quote)
Jack,
I commend you for your immense patience and compassion towards Doc while he constantly insults and falsely accuses you. You are an example of how we should conduct ourselves when we face a person such as Doc that has become so filled with bitterness. I tried to reach out to him last year but failed completely! Maybe he will understand about the “love” that he spoke of on another thread.
I believe that we are so close to meeting Jesus in the sky, that we should be consentrating on spreading the Good News, not competing for church membership! Thanks for the great lesson on being In-Christ!
MARANATHA
BJW
Sep 9, 2018 04:25:51 #
TexaCan wrote:
Jack, br br I commend you for your immense patien... (show quote)
Thanks for your kind words. The gospel unto salvation is God's core message new and old Testaments.
We see the spirit of confusion causing spiritual blindness to the gospel, the good news.
You said it perfectly that our consentration needs to be laser focused on the gospel and I would humbly add doing our own spiritual housekeeping as we look up for the blessed hope, the soon to begin marriage supper.
God Bless
Maranatha
Sep 9, 2018 05:33:10 #
TexaCan,
Since your behind a rock and looking through a mirror, to see into a window 30 feet away.
a. You just made an ill-informed assumption, that you are guessing about, what you do not even factually know, TexaCan.
b. So here's exactly what is going on, and happening here, on this post article thread and two previous post article threads TexaCan.
Maybe, you're the narrow-minded and the judgmental opinionated person TexaCan.
c. Now don't start with the tribulation and rapture controversy, All Jesus said was to be prepared, yea know not know the day or the hour,
Catholic Christian eschatology, (doctrine of end-times) (the Great Apostasy-Parousia)
a. Amillennialism
b. Dispensationalism
c. Millennialism
d. Pre-tribulation-rapture theology movements
e. Dominionism post-millennial eschatology
Biblical texts on eschatology
a. Daniel
b. Seventy Weeks
c. Synoptic Gospels
d. Olivet Discourse
e. Mark 13
f. Matthew 24
g. Sheep and Goats
h. Pauline Epistles
i. 2 Thessalonians
j. Johannine literature
k. Revelation (Events)
Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD - Bible.ca It's a new American phenomena, Just be prepared, that's all Jesus said.
www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830...
d. TexaCan, Know what the word actually means, before you write and speak the word, you don't know the definition or the biblical historical significance of the word MARANATHA.
e. Aramean words: Maran'athah, meaning ,"Our Lord comes," or is “coming.”
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139264-1.html
So please start using the word MARANATHA, in the correct biblical context. “To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant. ”TexaCan.
And the word "Maran'athah" is not the typical "badge of honor" Protestant rally cry, at the Catholic Council of Trent excommunication, decree of Luther and other reformist leaders and followers.
Protestants only have a 500 year biblical background, and most Protestant denominations Independents, non denominational Church's are lucky to have 10 to 20 years of Christian history service background
TexaCan, Even your fractional Southern Baptist 2,000 churches have completely independent separated calvinistic interpretations of the Holy Bible and what Jesus Christ taught in Holy Scripture. I can name many instances where Baptists have gotten things wrong biblical, Do you want to go there ”TexaCan ?
I'll make you cry because Jesus Christ spoke with authority, and did not speak symbolically to his Church, his Sacraments and governances to the Bishops priests deacons and laity.
Definition and terminology of MARANATHA e.g. ("Maran'athah")
a. Biblical term: MARANATHA,
b. And is not the anti-Catholic term Protestant, liberal rally cry from the Council of Trent ruling "MARANATHA, taken totally out of context, with a new liberal Protestant definition.
08/28/2018 Old and New Testament Usage Maranatha: Is the term "Maranatha" a rallying cry for Liberal Christians ?
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139264-1.html
Aramean words: Maran'athah, meaning ,"Our Lord comes," or is “coming.”
Hebrew words: moḥorām atta, You are put under the ban.
Used as an invocation: 1 Corinthians 16:22 which consists of two Aramean words, Maran'athah, meaning, "Our Lord comes," or is "coming."
www.biblestudytools.com/1-corinthians/16-22.html
If the latter interpretation is adopted, the meaning of the phrase is, "Our Lord is coming, and he will judge those who have set him at nought."
Maranatha definition: an invocation to the Lord, sometimes regarded as forming, with the preceding anathema
(in 1 Cor. 16:22)
a. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/invocation
b. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/precede
c. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/maranatha
d. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/intensify.
e. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/malediction
a. Noun: exclamation
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/curse
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/exclamation
b. Adjective: relating to someone who has been cursed or excommunicated
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/excommunicate
c. Adverb: from a damning point of view
d. Exclamation: ’Come, Lord!'
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/lord
TexaCan, Please do your historical word research, before using the correct word terminology. And it is not a Protestant liberal rallying cry . . . It's meaning ,"Our Lord comes," or is “coming.”
So, here is the dilemma where Jack sequim wa, has a wild-hair religious problem.
I have told him repeatedly I do not want to engage in a conversation with him anymore.
So do I block him or ignore him. What a dilemma, . . . ?
a. First he is religiously disingenuous in his correspondence with me in all three post threads.
Jack seems to be one of those religious evangelical fundamentalist, . . . "RELIGIOUS STALKERS" . . . in the subsequence post articles, Yes I did say that, STALKER, TexaCan.
Think about it . . . stalking and negatively commenting on the next two articles that I posted, and his continual disingenuous insulting comments.
I gave him some advice, and told him to stop pestering me. I've had enough. Jack is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
So now TexaCan, Your now becoming appraised of the situation, on all three threads and last two post articles.
1. So I posted an article "Deep In History: Breaking through the Myth’s of Christian History." Truly a great religious conversion story, article and with URL video links.
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139582-1.html
2. Jack, in his first reply to the Article, he sandbagged the Article, by posting a 4 page rhetorical cut and paste comments, which had nothing to do with the article.
3. Jack then deflects the article with Non-Sequester, Ad-Hominem, Straw-Man fallacy to deflect from what the article, and was intended to teach.
3. Jack then religiously insulted the thread article Author, and me, by posting a photograph of religious symbolism Pagan worship, Idolatry, and equating them to the Catholic Church. One negative picture and words says a 1,000 insults.
4.. The reply was not about the Article, but a comment by the Author of the Article, who demonstrated the analogy and combining both statements to his conversion to the Catholic faith.
a. "Deep In History: Breaking through the Myth’s of Christian History"
b. “To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant.” Dr Howell give a three part detailed answer to this statements.
5. Jack will not answer any of my questions, he only makes illogical religious statements, without backing those statements with any facts.
6. Just because you say these religiously false opinions does not make it true, they are just statements and allegations, without any facts to back them up you loose the argument.
It's clear as day the religious false opinions, his anti-Catholic agenda and his comments are unthoughtful, disingenuous and insulting to me and my Catholic faith and to others on this OPP Forum.
7. Jack then proceeds to tell me of his religious theology background, in religious cults and paganism, and how my Catholic Church is performing satanic rituals and is a religious pagan cult. Yes, how insulting and religiously disingenuous.
If Jack knew something about Christian Catholic History, Jack would know how for the past 1,986 years has been dealing and writing about heresy's, paganism, schism's and cults.
Fact: 45 Major Heretical Movements Declared By The Early Christian Church And Medieval Heresies 33 - 1177 A.D.
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139945-1.html
So now with these facts, we now know that Jack is an all-knowing fundamentalist evangelical, with a superior Protestant attitude, and he also a devious lier.
So TexaCan, Because of this, I will not engage with a person that has called My Church, My Catholic faith a pagan cult, that practices Satanism, prays and worship idols.
So, before you make another critical judgement and false allegation against me TexaCan.
Their are also misconceptions, and facts that you opinionated on the subject in this Post thread and potentially the two other Post threads, without having the facts and information.
Just because your Protestant doesn't mean you're a correct and good guy. You could be wrong and are sinful for what you wrote and said.
So TexaCan, before you continue and blindly responding to me on this thread again, on this factual subject in this thread. Please know what you are talking about.
Please listen, and read attentively, before you speak and write again here TexaCan . . . . and then you can insert foot . . . in your _ _ _ _ _ I'll let you fill in the blanks.
TexaCan, this is not an insult, it is called a euphemism or cliche idiom.
You may not like my bluntness, because my intolerance for ignorance-guile of simple fact-less minded people, like Jack and by other certain forum members.
There are many disingenuous preconceived false notions and anti-Catholic sentiment on this OPP Religious Forum.
I've been told that Catholics are not even Christians.
How ignorant of Church history can one be . . .
This is anti-catholic ideas are very blatant and rampant by many Protestants, they write and speak without knowing one simple fact or can-not support any facts to their false anti-catholic allegations and insults.
Just remember the Catholic-Universal Church has 1,986 years of Church documents, and 359 years of Church Tradition, before the origins of the Bible, before even the Holy Bible was even codified and put together in AD 392. It has ecumenical councils, papal encyclicals, Bishops writings, Early Church fathers writing, vast volumes of archives over the years.
so Tex“To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant.” Start doing your homework and your research, there are countless books, outside of the Bible and concordances to study from.
You might think I'm brash and opinionated, But I deal in facts and truthful knowledge, TexaCan, and if you can't argue in facts, then you have no leg to stand upon in a conversation, I have no tolerance for ignorance and deceitful people.
So TexaCan, if you can't present facts, and get all caught up in myopic and narrow-mindedness viewpoints, so be it, then its all your problem not mine. You own the problem, not me.
Maybe I deserve an apology, TexaCan
Doc 110
Since your behind a rock and looking through a mirror, to see into a window 30 feet away.
a. You just made an ill-informed assumption, that you are guessing about, what you do not even factually know, TexaCan.
b. So here's exactly what is going on, and happening here, on this post article thread and two previous post article threads TexaCan.
Maybe, you're the narrow-minded and the judgmental opinionated person TexaCan.
c. Now don't start with the tribulation and rapture controversy, All Jesus said was to be prepared, yea know not know the day or the hour,
Catholic Christian eschatology, (doctrine of end-times) (the Great Apostasy-Parousia)
a. Amillennialism
b. Dispensationalism
c. Millennialism
d. Pre-tribulation-rapture theology movements
e. Dominionism post-millennial eschatology
Biblical texts on eschatology
a. Daniel
b. Seventy Weeks
c. Synoptic Gospels
d. Olivet Discourse
e. Mark 13
f. Matthew 24
g. Sheep and Goats
h. Pauline Epistles
i. 2 Thessalonians
j. Johannine literature
k. Revelation (Events)
Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD - Bible.ca It's a new American phenomena, Just be prepared, that's all Jesus said.
www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830...
d. TexaCan, Know what the word actually means, before you write and speak the word, you don't know the definition or the biblical historical significance of the word MARANATHA.
e. Aramean words: Maran'athah, meaning ,"Our Lord comes," or is “coming.”
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139264-1.html
So please start using the word MARANATHA, in the correct biblical context. “To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant. ”TexaCan.
And the word "Maran'athah" is not the typical "badge of honor" Protestant rally cry, at the Catholic Council of Trent excommunication, decree of Luther and other reformist leaders and followers.
Protestants only have a 500 year biblical background, and most Protestant denominations Independents, non denominational Church's are lucky to have 10 to 20 years of Christian history service background
TexaCan, Even your fractional Southern Baptist 2,000 churches have completely independent separated calvinistic interpretations of the Holy Bible and what Jesus Christ taught in Holy Scripture. I can name many instances where Baptists have gotten things wrong biblical, Do you want to go there ”TexaCan ?
I'll make you cry because Jesus Christ spoke with authority, and did not speak symbolically to his Church, his Sacraments and governances to the Bishops priests deacons and laity.
Definition and terminology of MARANATHA e.g. ("Maran'athah")
a. Biblical term: MARANATHA,
b. And is not the anti-Catholic term Protestant, liberal rally cry from the Council of Trent ruling "MARANATHA, taken totally out of context, with a new liberal Protestant definition.
08/28/2018 Old and New Testament Usage Maranatha: Is the term "Maranatha" a rallying cry for Liberal Christians ?
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139264-1.html
Aramean words: Maran'athah, meaning ,"Our Lord comes," or is “coming.”
Hebrew words: moḥorām atta, You are put under the ban.
Used as an invocation: 1 Corinthians 16:22 which consists of two Aramean words, Maran'athah, meaning, "Our Lord comes," or is "coming."
www.biblestudytools.com/1-corinthians/16-22.html
If the latter interpretation is adopted, the meaning of the phrase is, "Our Lord is coming, and he will judge those who have set him at nought."
Maranatha definition: an invocation to the Lord, sometimes regarded as forming, with the preceding anathema
(in 1 Cor. 16:22)
a. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/invocation
b. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/precede
c. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/maranatha
d. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/intensify.
e. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/malediction
a. Noun: exclamation
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/curse
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/exclamation
b. Adjective: relating to someone who has been cursed or excommunicated
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/excommunicate
c. Adverb: from a damning point of view
d. Exclamation: ’Come, Lord!'
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/lord
TexaCan, Please do your historical word research, before using the correct word terminology. And it is not a Protestant liberal rallying cry . . . It's meaning ,"Our Lord comes," or is “coming.”
So, here is the dilemma where Jack sequim wa, has a wild-hair religious problem.
I have told him repeatedly I do not want to engage in a conversation with him anymore.
So do I block him or ignore him. What a dilemma, . . . ?
a. First he is religiously disingenuous in his correspondence with me in all three post threads.
Jack seems to be one of those religious evangelical fundamentalist, . . . "RELIGIOUS STALKERS" . . . in the subsequence post articles, Yes I did say that, STALKER, TexaCan.
Think about it . . . stalking and negatively commenting on the next two articles that I posted, and his continual disingenuous insulting comments.
I gave him some advice, and told him to stop pestering me. I've had enough. Jack is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
So now TexaCan, Your now becoming appraised of the situation, on all three threads and last two post articles.
1. So I posted an article "Deep In History: Breaking through the Myth’s of Christian History." Truly a great religious conversion story, article and with URL video links.
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139582-1.html
2. Jack, in his first reply to the Article, he sandbagged the Article, by posting a 4 page rhetorical cut and paste comments, which had nothing to do with the article.
3. Jack then deflects the article with Non-Sequester, Ad-Hominem, Straw-Man fallacy to deflect from what the article, and was intended to teach.
3. Jack then religiously insulted the thread article Author, and me, by posting a photograph of religious symbolism Pagan worship, Idolatry, and equating them to the Catholic Church. One negative picture and words says a 1,000 insults.
4.. The reply was not about the Article, but a comment by the Author of the Article, who demonstrated the analogy and combining both statements to his conversion to the Catholic faith.
a. "Deep In History: Breaking through the Myth’s of Christian History"
b. “To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant.” Dr Howell give a three part detailed answer to this statements.
5. Jack will not answer any of my questions, he only makes illogical religious statements, without backing those statements with any facts.
6. Just because you say these religiously false opinions does not make it true, they are just statements and allegations, without any facts to back them up you loose the argument.
It's clear as day the religious false opinions, his anti-Catholic agenda and his comments are unthoughtful, disingenuous and insulting to me and my Catholic faith and to others on this OPP Forum.
7. Jack then proceeds to tell me of his religious theology background, in religious cults and paganism, and how my Catholic Church is performing satanic rituals and is a religious pagan cult. Yes, how insulting and religiously disingenuous.
If Jack knew something about Christian Catholic History, Jack would know how for the past 1,986 years has been dealing and writing about heresy's, paganism, schism's and cults.
Fact: 45 Major Heretical Movements Declared By The Early Christian Church And Medieval Heresies 33 - 1177 A.D.
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139945-1.html
So now with these facts, we now know that Jack is an all-knowing fundamentalist evangelical, with a superior Protestant attitude, and he also a devious lier.
So TexaCan, Because of this, I will not engage with a person that has called My Church, My Catholic faith a pagan cult, that practices Satanism, prays and worship idols.
So, before you make another critical judgement and false allegation against me TexaCan.
Their are also misconceptions, and facts that you opinionated on the subject in this Post thread and potentially the two other Post threads, without having the facts and information.
Just because your Protestant doesn't mean you're a correct and good guy. You could be wrong and are sinful for what you wrote and said.
So TexaCan, before you continue and blindly responding to me on this thread again, on this factual subject in this thread. Please know what you are talking about.
Please listen, and read attentively, before you speak and write again here TexaCan . . . . and then you can insert foot . . . in your _ _ _ _ _ I'll let you fill in the blanks.
TexaCan, this is not an insult, it is called a euphemism or cliche idiom.
You may not like my bluntness, because my intolerance for ignorance-guile of simple fact-less minded people, like Jack and by other certain forum members.
There are many disingenuous preconceived false notions and anti-Catholic sentiment on this OPP Religious Forum.
I've been told that Catholics are not even Christians.
How ignorant of Church history can one be . . .
This is anti-catholic ideas are very blatant and rampant by many Protestants, they write and speak without knowing one simple fact or can-not support any facts to their false anti-catholic allegations and insults.
Just remember the Catholic-Universal Church has 1,986 years of Church documents, and 359 years of Church Tradition, before the origins of the Bible, before even the Holy Bible was even codified and put together in AD 392. It has ecumenical councils, papal encyclicals, Bishops writings, Early Church fathers writing, vast volumes of archives over the years.
so Tex“To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant.” Start doing your homework and your research, there are countless books, outside of the Bible and concordances to study from.
You might think I'm brash and opinionated, But I deal in facts and truthful knowledge, TexaCan, and if you can't argue in facts, then you have no leg to stand upon in a conversation, I have no tolerance for ignorance and deceitful people.
So TexaCan, if you can't present facts, and get all caught up in myopic and narrow-mindedness viewpoints, so be it, then its all your problem not mine. You own the problem, not me.
Maybe I deserve an apology, TexaCan
Doc 110
TexaCan wrote:
Jack, br br I commend you for your immense patien... (show quote)
Sep 9, 2018 07:49:11 #
[quote=jack sequim wa
Christians are to be ready for an answer to their faith.
* Jack you're just full of fire and brimstone, and not sackcloths and ashes high and mighty, totally Religious spiteful and sanctimonious. Zebras don't change their stripes *
* Jack you didn't even read the article here, You didn't go to any of the URL site links. *
* Who is composting who here ? I don't Jump when you tel me to jump Jack, nor do I have to be bullied by you in every reply. *
* I don't like how you go about asking your question and how you structure your questions. *
* Did I say that you're Religious disingenuous, in how you conveniently turn questions and replies, then turn responses around to suit your evil religious objectives. *
* Since you wouldn't answer any of my questions, I wouldn't answer any of your questions, Stalemate . . . *
* So I referred you to apologetics and told you to look up your own answers. As I said and told you that you are Religiously disingenuous. *
* I'm just tired of your religious fundamentalist negativity and refuse to have a dialog with you. *
* It's Time to pull the plug on you, and to block your abusive anti-Catholic behavior *
I won't go into church falsities on this post but you mistake love for evil and eternal life with those unable to give an answer on biblical salvation are at risk.
* Jack the only risk you you have are lies, and continued evil evil insults, without a thread of facts or evidence to support your un-Christian comments. *
Isn't it something the one Christian catholic on this forum that I have the utmost respect for was able to tell me how one must be saved in terms a ten year old would unstand, and somehow its overly complicated for you.
*Jack, your deceitful in everything that you have conspired from the initial confrontation in three article and the insults that you perpetuate. *
* a. Deep In History: Breaking through the Myth’s of Christian History *
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139582-1.html
* b. What Do Catholics Really Believe About Salvation. . . . ? *
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-140014-1.html
* c. Don’t Get Trapped By Negativity *
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-140112-1.html
I threw out an olive branch, in return for insults, hmmm.
* hmmmm you did no such thing, from the beginning you've been insulting and condescending to me in your anti-catholic vitriol, your just a protestant fundamentalist hating bigot.*
* You think you've done something or won something. The only thing you've done is waved the literary arguments fallacy idioms of Straw man "Non-Sequitur". *
* All you have done in any of the three article is to deflect from the core issue is that your a Religious bigot, try to entrap a potential victim in an "Ah Ha" moment. What a spider*
* You're just a really small individual and thinks he waved an olive branch ,but it was a baseball bat religious cleaver . . . to beat someone with. *
* Thats how you operate Jack *
When an atheist tells you that you believe in myths and goat herders do you return evil with evil?
* And what pray tell does that euphemism compost really mean Jack . . .*
If someone tells you that you have false teachings do you return evil with evil, yes you do.. Except in this case I at least admitted my motives.
I think the one that has a lot of self examination is typing insults to me without let up.[/quote]
* The only self examination you have to do, is your unchristian anti-catholic insults; Paganism worship, Idolatry, Demonic and satanist practices. Tit For Tat Jack *
* You have said these evil things, you have this on your conscience and have to admit your sins to God and at your final judgment. *
* Doc 110 *
Christians are to be ready for an answer to their faith.
* Jack you're just full of fire and brimstone, and not sackcloths and ashes high and mighty, totally Religious spiteful and sanctimonious. Zebras don't change their stripes *
* Jack you didn't even read the article here, You didn't go to any of the URL site links. *
* Who is composting who here ? I don't Jump when you tel me to jump Jack, nor do I have to be bullied by you in every reply. *
* I don't like how you go about asking your question and how you structure your questions. *
* Did I say that you're Religious disingenuous, in how you conveniently turn questions and replies, then turn responses around to suit your evil religious objectives. *
* Since you wouldn't answer any of my questions, I wouldn't answer any of your questions, Stalemate . . . *
* So I referred you to apologetics and told you to look up your own answers. As I said and told you that you are Religiously disingenuous. *
* I'm just tired of your religious fundamentalist negativity and refuse to have a dialog with you. *
* It's Time to pull the plug on you, and to block your abusive anti-Catholic behavior *
I won't go into church falsities on this post but you mistake love for evil and eternal life with those unable to give an answer on biblical salvation are at risk.
* Jack the only risk you you have are lies, and continued evil evil insults, without a thread of facts or evidence to support your un-Christian comments. *
Isn't it something the one Christian catholic on this forum that I have the utmost respect for was able to tell me how one must be saved in terms a ten year old would unstand, and somehow its overly complicated for you.
*Jack, your deceitful in everything that you have conspired from the initial confrontation in three article and the insults that you perpetuate. *
* a. Deep In History: Breaking through the Myth’s of Christian History *
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-139582-1.html
* b. What Do Catholics Really Believe About Salvation. . . . ? *
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-140014-1.html
* c. Don’t Get Trapped By Negativity *
https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-140112-1.html
I threw out an olive branch, in return for insults, hmmm.
* hmmmm you did no such thing, from the beginning you've been insulting and condescending to me in your anti-catholic vitriol, your just a protestant fundamentalist hating bigot.*
* You think you've done something or won something. The only thing you've done is waved the literary arguments fallacy idioms of Straw man "Non-Sequitur". *
* All you have done in any of the three article is to deflect from the core issue is that your a Religious bigot, try to entrap a potential victim in an "Ah Ha" moment. What a spider*
* You're just a really small individual and thinks he waved an olive branch ,but it was a baseball bat religious cleaver . . . to beat someone with. *
* Thats how you operate Jack *
When an atheist tells you that you believe in myths and goat herders do you return evil with evil?
* And what pray tell does that euphemism compost really mean Jack . . .*
If someone tells you that you have false teachings do you return evil with evil, yes you do.. Except in this case I at least admitted my motives.
I think the one that has a lot of self examination is typing insults to me without let up.[/quote]
* The only self examination you have to do, is your unchristian anti-catholic insults; Paganism worship, Idolatry, Demonic and satanist practices. Tit For Tat Jack *
* You have said these evil things, you have this on your conscience and have to admit your sins to God and at your final judgment. *
* Doc 110 *
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.