A******n is murder. Animals are given more consideration than unborn children. Try to abort a litter of puppies and see what kind of reaction you get. But humans, no problem.

That it is but we should resist the temptation to respond in kind. I'm pointing a finger at myself here. I've been in that place - where so much of what you've been taught is false. It's not an easy place to be. God smashed me (still does from time to time!) and I needed it though when it happened I was very angry though I denied it at the time. That anger manifests itself in different ways.

You are coming from the Catholic perspective.



You are using Phl 1:23 out of context. It doesn't mean the dead pray for us. They can't. Once a person is in Heaven, which is perfect, why would God then add the worry or concern about anyone on earth? It's not logical nor is it Biblical.



Many Catholics do, particularly in Latin countries.



John 1:14 doesn't apply to Mary but to Christ alone. What you explained was Catholic doctrine which rationalizes praying to Mary. That is in no way Biblical. You can't use scripture to justify it. That is the crux of the matter.



But it confirms nothing and again, that's not scriptural. That's why your argument fails.



Again, that's not scriptural and you are twisting John 17:22. This has nothing to do with those who have died. That is very clear. And there is nowhere in scripture that supports praying to those who have died. That is a fabrication of man.

John 17:20 I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.



He saw it while he was still alive - Gen 18:2
He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth

The Bible cross references itself. Christ wasn't referring to the dead being able to see what was happening on earth.



Did you mean Acts 19:11-12?
11 And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

That was Paul. There is nowhere in the Bible that tells us to use relics for anything.

Exodus 20:4-5 - You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them,



We disagree on what Christ intended but I will leave it at that. I think Zemirah has addressed that before.



LOL!! Believe it or not I do appreciate the answer.

The correct answers are always in the Bible.

If you notice, Catholics can't defend a lot of their doctrine with the Bible. There's a reason for that.

A lot of protestants don't agree with each other but that doesn't validate Catholicism. There isn't total agreement there either.

We need to remember that God's word is perfect (Psalm 19), to be careful how we listen to our pastors, be like the Bereans and always test the spirits.

If you're not angry as you insist, then why are you so consistently downright nasty to people? There's no excuse for it. I've never personally insulted you, I criticize doctrine. So what's the problem?

I know...conviction! That's not a bad thing, its a good thing.

I've laid them out many times with scripture to show they are false. The burden of proof is on Catholics to show Mary remained a virgin, was sinless and ascended into heaven. How can I document that none of that is in the Bible?

Praying to saints and Mary is idol worship. That's pretty cut and dried.

Transubstantiation -

In his book The Faith of Millions, John O’Brien, a Catholic priest, explains the procedure of the mass.

When the priest pronounces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors: it is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed it is greater even than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the Blessed Virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man—not once but a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.

Yet scripture states in Heb 9:24-28 -

24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear ca second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

In the Old Testament repeated sacrifices were made for sin. But Christ was the perfect sacrifice and only had to be done once. To negate that with transubstantiation is outright blasphemy and it perverts what He did on the cross.

There were others that criticized Catholicism but Luther brought its heresies to the forefront. Praise the Lord he did!

There are many false doctrines - Zemirah posted a list I think. Purgatory is another. That's not Biblical either nor are indulgences.

Hi Jack,

I believe there is such anger because they are being convicted by the Holy Spirit.

And this is justification for the false doctrine of the Catholic church? I don't think so. Just as past and present atrocities by the Catholic church don't puff up protestants.



I don't know anyone who goes it alone. Even pastors don't go it alone. But all individuals are to test the spirits and discern. Someone else can't do that for you. Even among priests there isn't 100% agreement.

Luther exposed a lot of false Catholic doctrine. He wasn't perfect and I'm sure he wouldn't say he was perfect either.

I hope you feel better Zemirah. I know sometimes it can be hard not to give in.

Protestants aren't an island unto themselves. Yet it is up to each individual to be discerning about what they learn. We have to be careful how we listen.



Some are maybe. There are no more confused protestants than Catholics though. The bottom line is whether or not God's word is perfect. That scripture is perfect is also in the Catholic version. Psalm 19 is one example. The question is, if His word is perfect then why place anything else above it or in place of it? That is what Catholicism does.

I know you believe my thinking is wrong.

What I deny is Catholic doctrine not Christian faith. What is your definition of the Gospel?

Though I realize the value of history and think every Christian should have a copy of Fox's Book of Martyrs, I don't look at any traditions as holy. Is it important to know history? I think it is. Is it necessary for saving faith? No it is not.

Would I deny Christ? Would you? I can only hope I would have the strength not to deny Him no matter what. No one can say unless they are faced with it.

I don't disagree with that. There are a lot of protestants who go to church more for an emotional experience or to be entertained than to be preached to. Charles Spurgeon lamented about watered down preaching and he was alive in the 1800s!

2 Tim 4:3 - For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

That is so true of today.



I can truthfully say when I left it was painful. But I had to. It's not easier now but harder and at the same time more rewarding. Reading the Bible is convicting.

Heb 4:12 - For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

What you call traditional Christianity is not Biblical though. That Jesus had brothers shows she didn't remain a virgin.



If she had indeed been assumed into heaven why would God's word omit such an important detail? If God's word is perfect as scripture states it is, then how can one justify overriding it with tradition?