oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

I didn't see any Muslims, Hindus of Jews in that group of singers. Why, all of a sudden, is it wrong to sing those songs that have been sung for way more years than I have been here because it might hurt some feelings? The real problem for me is that so much of that crap was never a problem till the last few years.

When Silent Night, not a new song at all, has to have Jesus, God and Savior censored from the song and it had never been called for in the past something is going on. I think it may be time for Christians to stand up for their rights that may be as important as those others.

You people just want Christianity wiped out and we all know why that is. It won't be very easy to stuff Socialism or its more unfair buddy stuffed up us until the progressive movement can k**l off Christianity.

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

So you want Media Matters to hand out your facts? If not them then you must go along with Think Prog. Come on when you go with that narrow crap and then end up reading those people.

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

Media Matters? Stink Prog? I could name some others but you wouldn't like it since they are as narrow as these you don't like. When you throw in that fundamentalist Christian crap along with far right propaganda you tell me where your mind is.

Vacaman

Christians have forever been forgiving to others, as chastised as a result of appearing weak or confused. This has laid the ground work for vultures and rats to come out of every crevice of the earth to deny the ritious people their reciprocation of love and tolerance. I don't h**e atheists, socialists or progressives I just don't agree with any of them. I can except them and their lack of knowledge as simply a short coming. They can not stand Christians or anybody else who walks the walk without spewing hatred or satans work if you will. The ASP don't realize how much they have helped Lucifer in his work. Well there have been some catholic priests that have helped too, but that's a whole other discussion. We are all sinners, some of us are simply forgivin and when we are forgivin we begin to forgive others, so we will realize we all can be forgivin and that is the whole enchilada.

Neal

Welll - I've always been of the opinion that your religion is a private thing, not something you go around rubbing in other peoples faces, especially when you must be aware that some portion of those folks believe differently that yourself.

Makes me think of that guy in the park with the long coat and his truncated pantlegs tied on just above his knees. Same principle: if others don't wanna see/hear it - keep your coat/mouth buttoned!

Vacaman

There is no doubt that a relationship with the creator is a personal relationship. We are lucky to have this opportunity is my belief, but again it is voluntary and it is totally based on faith. If you choose not to believe and that is your personal preference, is that not a personal decision too? I think the backlash by believers towards atheists and such is unwarranted and probably not in the best interest of the church at all, but the world view is of weakness if a person doesn't stand up for what they believe. Atheists are the ones rubbing people's noses in it! Christmas is just a celebration of Christs birth, if that is an issue then practice Festivous as in Seinfeld, got no problem with that at all my friend. Merry Christmas

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

Are you saying that when they cut out certain words from Silent Night it is okay. Of course, you may not know the words of that old time song, but they sure did a good job of cutting out words like Jesus, God and Saviour. Those who believe like you do really think that job of censorship was alright but how about those of us who know those words and hear when they don't show up? Do you really think that singing all those words would have been a form of jamming them down the throats of those who heard? I really do think you feel like that. What is freedom of speech to people like you?

Neal

Oh my dear vacaman, please don't for a minute believe that atheists have no beliefs. My experience with that breed suggests that their primary belief is that one should fashion their conduct such that it is based in knowledge, not belief. Knowledge, after all, is absolutely limited by evidence, while belief is limited only by one's imagination and willingness to accept the imaginative productions of others. This reality makes for a huge range of religious belief

I was raised in a very homogeneous society - I never even saw a black person until I was six. The celebration of Christmas surrounded me in December. BUT, that world has faded into the past; we are now an increasingly heterogeneous society where virtually any public place is peopled by some folks other than Christians.

Religious belief is a private matter, vacaman, and though we're not accustomed to it, it may well be time when public celebration of religious belief should be throttled back - not because one is being forced, but as a matter of good manners. Think about it.

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

Is it too much to ask you to listen to that rendition of Silent Night by that elementary group? Nobody had griped about the way they sang it but the administrators seemed to think that taking a chance on offending someone just wasn't worth it. I bet that there wasn't a Muslim within miles and surely atheists would know to stay away from a musical program where most of the people are Christians. I was very offended hearing the traditional song sung without any direct words about God, Jesus, and saviour. I guess only you people can be offended by singing the song as it was written and been sung for more than 100 years.

Neal

Sorry you were offended oldroy, and I think somebody in the music department went really overboard. You mention that Muslims/Atheists/etc. "would know to stay away from a musical program where most of the people are Christians." Maybe it's different these days, but when I was in elementary school lotsa years ago, I had just two choices: attend the school function or report to the principal's office for an ass chewing.

Student populations have become way, way more diverse since those days and maybe it's just a sensible idea to keep religious themes a bit more private. After all - religion doesn't live on the street, in the classroom/barracks/factory - it lives in the hearts and minds of individual people. Consider that. . .

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

I think that the concert that this thread originated about was a Christmas program and the way somebody edited Silent Night was the problem. Now why in hell would an atheist attend a CHRISTMAS concert knowing that some words in support of Jesus would be spoken? When you know this will happen surely you would just stay away.

How about you considering your atheistic beliefs and keeping them to yourself? You seem to think that only Christians are the nasty people where religion is concerned. When you people use the word DIVERSE you are refusing to accept the fact that until recent times diversity wasn't a magic word you could use for wh**ever reason. In the 60s, 70s and 80s when I was a teacher we never even thought about worrying about hurting anyone else's feelings with those words that had to be edited out of that song. Have your numbers increased so many times since the 80s?

Vacaman

Christmas is a religious holiday plain and simple, so is Hanikuh. I never claimed that atheists have no belief but by defacto and atheist is a non believer, perhaps you are thinking of agnostics? Religion has been expressed openly and publicly for as long as man has thought or been taught about it. We all have our beliefs and I am thankful we live in a country under Christian beliefs so we all can choose to belie e what we want!

Neal

Vacaman - you've been told over and over that this is a Christian country. This is NOT a Christian country, never has been a Christian country, and never will be a Christian country. We do NOT live under Christian beliefs. This is a SECULAR country, in which (to quote you) "we all can choose to believe what we want!"

You seem to think that, because we have a majority of Christians in this country and you happen to be one of them, you can push the particulars of your religious celebration down everyone's throat. Naughty! Santa won't come . . .!

Yes, religions have been around for a long time, starting in the most primitive African tribes with the Witchdoctor and Shaman. As soon as humans noticed that everyone died and that eventually they would too, they needed the comforting idea of an afterlife. The foundation of religion, therefore, is the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few - and now we're back to the witchdoctor.

Incidentally, an agnostic is one who doesn't disbelieve, but hasn't made up their mind to believe. A doubter.

Merry Christmas!!

oldroy Loc: Western Kansas (No longer in hiding)

Your use of the word secular tells me that you really do believe that you of the atheist beliefs really think you have changed this country to pure secularism and you just haven't made it yet. Yes, you have been trying very hard for a number of years and have gained the ear of liberals on various benches but you are still just getting there, not there, yet.

Vacaman

Neal ,
You are using the first ruse to iliminate religion used by scholars , an you use an assumption by the same that religion started in Africa, though it more than likely did not and I say that considering the orient as seperating. Our founding fathers did believe and their beliefs are reflected in our every day lives. We are a Christian nation and I don't care what you believe. I was just out this fine holiday and I only witnessed liquor stores and small drug stores open, nobody out there who didn't need to be. Even Walmart and McDonald's is closed. So why would we all observe this Christian holiday if we were not a Christian nation? In Egypt Christians are being murdered today as minorities, in Pakistan the church's were shut down last week by government through Islamic pressure, in china they are murdering their own relatives for power. Do you really think we have it so good because our people and government has been self enlightened? You may not believe yet, but scripture of the true enlightened people" the chosen" state that every knee that'll bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is lord. The day is coming, maybe not today , when every man has had the chance to know The Lord , he will return. In a blink of an eye all beings will know. We can not enter heaven through our works or for simply being nice to each other. More people are turning to Christianity over the entire planet than any other religion, including here in the US. Atheist may have their way with the media but that isn't Christianity's concern.
Merry Christmas!