Tasine Loc: Southwest US

FTA by Simon Wilson found at:
http://mises.org/library/why-greeks-should-repudiate-their-government%E2%80%99s-debt

Government debt is not like private debt. In fact, government debt is fundamentally illegitimate and one might even be justified in claiming that anyone seeking to profit from it is aiding and abetting criminal activity.

Government debt is different. When a government issues debt on the bond market, it is not pledging to make good on it out of its own resources because, as Rothbard points out, it owns no such resources:

For unlike the rest of us, government sells no productive good or service and therefore earns nothing. It can only get money by l**ting our resources through taxes, or through the hidden tax of legalized counterfeiting known as “inflation.”

What a government pledges to its creditors is payment of the future wealth of its subjects, the taxpayers. This is wealth obtained through violent coercion and pledged without its owner’s consent. Any moral claim the creditors who buy such debt have to repayment from the victims is thus non-existent. Indeed as Rothbard avers, "[P]ublic creditors, far from being innocents, know full well that their proceeds will come out of that selfsame coercion. In short, public creditors are willing to hand over money to the government now in order to receive a share of tax l**t in the future. This is the opposite of a free market, or a genuinely voluntary t***saction. Both parties are immorally contracting to participate in the violation of the property rights of citizens in the future."
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So, will you pay off congress' debt with you income tax? Is this "law" criminal or acceptable?

DamnYANKEE

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Only a REVOLUTION can stop this now

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

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Know what I think? I believe that there are enough Americans who FAVOR taxation and high taxes coupled with the large number that won't fight even for their own worthless hides that intelligent taxpayers might very well be in the minority, and if any revolution should be started, they will have a very hard row to hoe. I h**e myself for saying that, but I truly believe I may be right. How I hope I am wrong.

Striker Loc: Arizona Rockies

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Here's the deal, my friend.
NOBODY, or at least virtually nobody alive over the past couple of centuries, has been allowed to consent to any part of the government which rules them, nor to anything they stole and spent, nor to any of the gigantic body of "laws" passed by our Rulers.

I don't even see "good intentions" for any of that, and if our Rulers had good intentions, they were ignorant of all the bad effects foisted upon the citizen/s***es.

The Rulers steal our money using Forced Taxation - not with our consent, as somehow that's "pre-ordained" despite that we never signed anything giving our consent.

The Rulers give our our stolen taxes to anyone or any country they choose - that is the money ("income") everyone worked for and which made America so great.

The Rulers make Wars without our consent, and thereby Sacrifice our Right to Life, and the lives of many others from across this planet over whom they have expanded their powers of Force, again without their consent. It's all called "Patriotic" and done in the name of "Defense".

The system of Government survives only by using Force against the very people they are charged to "defend", yet nobody gave them permission, did they?

So Like it or not, we have no real voice because our consent is not required.

I have also just posted a parallel article from Murray Rothbard here:
http://no-ruler.net/11647/repudiating-the-national-debt/

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

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A most thoughtful comment, very compelling. I find I agree with practically every word. Actually I believe I am a little stronger on defense than you, but your comment re defense is right on target. We citizens, we taxpayers, pay for everything government is, what government buys, what government gives away..........and we pay for it in what government extracts from us at the point of a gun, or at least threat of jail. There is NOTHING about it that smacks of free citizens. Nothing that smacks of fairness - we get no v**e on how our money is spent, and actually we get insults when we try to intervene in any way.

Striker Loc: Arizona Rockies

We have bought our Rulers all the big weapons which serve to render revolution impossible. Even if we could "win", it would only change some of the Rulership which purports to run the lives of all us humans. We don't even get to v**e for dissolution!

The only exit available will come with the inevitable Great Collapse our Rulers have placed before us and which will put them out of business.

Humanity will have one last chance to refuse to be Governed and Ruled.

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

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I'm in the process of reading the article you gave a link to, "Repudiating the National Debt", and I'd like to post my favorite paragraph here:

The public debt t***saction, then, is very different from private debt. Instead of a low-time-preference creditor exchanging money for an IOU from a high-time-preference debtor, the government now receives money from creditors, both parties realizing that the money will be paid back not out of the pockets or the hides of the politicians and bureaucrats, but out of the l**ted wallets and purses of the hapless taxpayers, the subjects of the state. The government gets the money by tax-coercion; and the public creditors, far from being innocents, know full well that their proceeds will come out of that selfsame coercion. In short, public creditors are willing to hand over money to the government now in order to receive a share of tax l**t in the future. This is the opposite of a free market, or a genuinely voluntary t***saction. Both parties are immorally contracting to participate in the violation of the property rights of citizens in the future. Both parties, therefore, are making agreements about other people’s property, and both deserve the back of our hand. The public credit t***saction is not a genuine contract that need be considered sacrosanct, any more than robbers parceling out their shares of l**t in advance should be treated as some sort of sanctified contract.
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I would love to hear someone try to repudiate that paragraph. It cannot be done without giggles and grins, and even WITH giggles and grins, it cannot repudiated.

Striker Loc: Arizona Rockies

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That's great - and would be just as great to comment same on No-Ruler!

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

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Great idea! Will do ASAP!!

jelun

Anyone who doesn't like it here has options.

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

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I love it here, so either quit trying to change "here" and go somewhere else.

Striker Loc: Arizona Rockies

Just what/where are those options? Is there actually anyplace where a person can be truly at Liberty and Peace?

lpnmajor Loc: Arkansas

I believe you are absolutely correct. In any case, what would a revolution consist of? It certainly could NOT be an armed revolution, as the rebels would immediately be classified as home grown terrorists - and destroyed by the very same "well regulated" m*****as that they themselves pretend to be.

The problem began when we insisted on continuing with the "representative Government", even after it was no longer necessary to do so. In 1789, when it might take days to reach the capitol, it made sense to be "represented" there, for the purpose of doing the people's business - how long has it been now, that it is mere hours away? Especially in this digital age, where tele-presence is not science fiction, is it clear that we no longer need that type of Government. Considering that we are no longer BEING represented - it makes even less sense.

There is no substantial reason why the citizens could not be involved in ALL legislation. Dissolve the Congress, let the States hold referendums, and the results dictated to the executive branch for application. T***sfer all debt to Wall Street - and let them manage it, with the stipulation that the tax payer will NOT be bailing them out if they screw up - again.

Comment Loc: California

All welfare is borrowed. Nearly half of the US pop is not working, on welfare, SS, medical insurance, food stamps, gov. housing, child care, sick leave with pay, workers comp, vacation with pay, unemployment insurance, bereavement time off with pay, 6 mos family time off with pay, low income tax credit, taxes wasted due to i*****l i*********n. terrorists and gangs are coming across the borders with kisses from Obambie. Delinquent student loans (more than 1 tril), 22 million gov Democratic employees ----. This gov has become a big swamp of free loading Democrats that are either employed by the gov or are receiving a gov check, on gov payroll. This group v**es Dumocrap because Dumocraps have convinced these groups that Republicans will cut their current benefits . This group is more than 50% of the pop. The debt train is on the high speed rail tracks without an engineer in the cabin. A train wreck is imminent.

Tasine Loc: Southwest US

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Your suggested way would be a vast improvement over what we now have, but then what wouldn't be? I could live with your plan. I would love to see us eliminate what we call "government" altogether. It smacks of the days of knights in armor, kings, royalty, etc. And the very word is oppressive: GOVERNment, meaning to direct or restrain, to hold in check. That isn't the infrastructure, foreign affairs, things to do with the nation. That is governing of the people, the taxpayers, the people who pay the ones who GOVERN. Isn't there something wrong with this picture? If anything, shouldn't it be us who govern our employees instead? I make far better decision than DC does, yet I have no say. DC doesn't give a hang what I have to say because it will do as it pleases and THAT means it will do what benefits the government or congressman, or judge, or President, but NOT the ordinary several million taxpayers. I would love what is known as voluntary anarchy whereby each community looks after its own needs. No taxation. No edicts from elsewhere. The place that everyone knows what he can do safely and what he cannot do safely.

Back to your plan. One time some years ago I had suggested that the states collect taxes of all sorts and send the US Congress the amount of money that the states decided would be the budget for the US government, and if Congress overspends, IT pays the bill.

Good post. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: