rumitoid

Acts11:26: "The disciples were called Christians first..."

"I am the way, the t***h, and the life...no comes to the father unless through me." To be Christian, it is necessary to proclaim Jesus Christ as your lord and savior and then to reprent. Just saying God is not enough.
Also, the unalienable rights are not Biblical but humanistic.

Lou Loc: Florida

You're sidestepping the issue . WHERE in the Constitution do you see the word Christian . No , GOD in the sense it was used does not indicate Christian .
If anyone's been drinking the cool-aid , it' s you pal .

Homestead

OK, you got me on the Christian being in the bible, never-the less, inalienable rights come from natures Law, God's Law and the Revealed Law of God.

That is in the federalist Papers and the writings the founding fathers shared among themselves and the writings of John Lock and others.

Our fore fathers had what was called a Classical education. It's time people started remembering what that entailed.

rumitoid

Just finished writing this great detailed reply and got disconnected from the internet. I will try to reconstruct.

Many of the colonies had constitutions that specifically mentioned Jesus by name, but each of these were specific to a certain denomination and not broadly as Christian. Many came from Europe to avoid the abuses and oppression of theocracies toward their denomination. Separation of church and state was meant to keep any one denomination from assuming power.

"The pursuit of happiness" is pagan or at best humanistic; it is not a Christian principle. "Liberty" comes only in Christ, who is the "life." Jefferson, who wrote the DOI (borrowing from many sources), is more a universalist or deist but definitely not Christian (see "Jefferson's Bible").

Many argue that the revolution went against biblical imperatives "not to rebel against the governing authorities"; see Romans13:1-4.

bmac32 Loc: West Florida

Oh there you go again. No answer so we throw teabag and neo-con out there. Feel better?

Homestead

George Washington, the father of this country, declared in his farewell address:

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Wh**ever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.


Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University:

You desire to know something of my Religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it: But I do not take your Curiosity amiss, and shall endeavour in a few Words to gratify it. Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we can render to him, is doing Good to his other Children. That the Soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its Conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do, in wh**ever Sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity: tho' it is a Question I do not dogmatise upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the T***h with less Trouble. I see no harm however in its being believed, if that Belief has the good Consequence as probably it has, of making his Doctrines more respected and better observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the Believers, in his Government of the World, with any particular Marks of his Displeasure. I shall only add respecting myself, that having experienced the Goodness of that Being, in conducting me prosperously thro' a long Life, I have no doubt of its Continuance in the next, tho' without the smallest Conceit of meriting such Goodness.

Alexis de Tocqueville Discovers the Importance of religion in America in 1831:

Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of society, but, it must be regarded as the first of their political institutions... I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion-for who can search the human heart?-but, I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republic institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or to a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society.


I helped build a church once, many years ago. I worked off the blueprint which told me the dimensions of the foundations, the width and thickness of the footings. It showed me the placement of the rooms, walls, ceilings, wiring, plumbing, cabinets, sinks, toilets, but, nowhere on those blue prints did it mention Jesus Christ or Christians.

So according to you that Baptist Church was not a Christian church for Christians.

The Constitution is the Blue print for the American Federal government. It is not the only document that establishes this country.

Lou Loc: Florida

Where are the words homestead ? I make no issue that there were christians in the colonies , nor whether this country is and was predominately Christian .
The use of the word GOD in the Constitution no more affirms Christianity ,than it does Judaism or any Monotheistic belief that adheres to ONE GOD AND CREATOR [Masons included] . I guess you failed to detect Franklin's ambiguity in his answer .

Lou Loc: Florida

The Founding Fathers were wiser than you homestead .

Homestead

"but each of these were specific to a certain denomination and not broadly as Christian."

Wait....What????

Christianity is the belief in Christ. There is disagreement as to how he should be worshipped and other details, but, if you believe in Christ, you are a Christian.

I don't know what to make of Romans13:1-4.

I guess God shouldn't have commanded Mosses to demand that Egypt "let his people go."
Maybe Sodom and Gomorrah was a good place to stay and then knocking peoples walls down with trumpets wasn't exactly neighbourly or civilly obedient.

rumitoid

Are you aware of the various Christain religious wars and oppressions in Eurpoe? Yes, being a member of a certain denomination or sect and believing in Christ makes you a Christian but it does not put you in agreement with all other denominations and sects--and in Europe that meant war. Separation of church and state, as previous explained, was there to stop a takeover by a particular denomination or sect.

Homestead

I guess you also missed the part where I mentioned building a church from blueprints that didn't mention Jesus or Christians.

It was still built by Christians for the purpose of worshipping Christ.

The Constitution is the blue print for the Federal Government. It deals with constructing and limiting the federal government. It deals with internal and external checks and balances to keep the federal government within control of the people.

That doesn't mean that Christianity has anything less to do with it than the blue prints of a church.

It is only one part of the government. The Declaration of Independence is the mission statement. Which says that your rights come from God. Just what God do you think they were talking about.

De Tocqueville visited America in 1831. He visited America eleven years after the country was formed. If you have so much tunnel vision that you can't see what was being constructed, then maybe you might see what was built.



The sects that exist in the United States are innumerable. They all differ in respect to the worship which is due to the Creator; but they all agree in respect to the duties which are due from man to man. Each sect adores the Deity in its own peculiar manner, but all sects preach the same moral law in the name of God. If it be of the highest importance to man, as an individual, that his religion should be true, it is not so to society. Society has no future life to hope for or to fear; and provided the citizens profess a religion, the peculiar tenets of that religion are of little importance to its interests. Moreover, all the sects of the United States are comprised within the great unity of Christianity, and Christian morality is everywhere the same.

It may fairly be believed that a certain number of Americans pursue a peculiar form of worship from habit more than from con- viction. In the United States the sovereign authority is religious, and consequently hypocrisy must be common; but there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America; and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.

I have remarked that the American clergy in general, without even excepting those who do not admit religious liberty, are all in favor of civil freedom; but they do not support any particular political system. They keep aloof from parties and from public affairs. In the United States religion exercises but little influence upon the laws and upon the details of public opinion; but it directs the customs of the community, and, by regulating domestic life, it regulates the state.

I do not question that the great austerity of manners that is observable in the United States arises, in the first instance, from religious faith. Religion is often unable to restrain man from the numberless temptations which chance offers; nor can it check that passion for gain which everything contributes to arouse; but its influence over the mind of woman is supreme, and women are the protectors of morals. There is certainly no country in the world where the tie of marriage is more respected than in America or where conjugal happiness is more highly or worthily appreciated, In Europe almost all the disturbances of society arise from the irregularities of domestic life. To despise the natural bonds and legitimate pleasures of home is to contract a taste for excesses, a restlessness of heart, and fluctuating desires. Agitated by the tumultuous passions that frequently disturb his dwelling, the European is galled by the obedience which the legislative powers of the state exact. But when the American retires from the turmoil of public life to the bosom of his family, he finds in it the image of order and of peace. There his pleasures are simple and natural, his joys are innocent and calm; and as he finds that an orderly life is the surest path to happiness, he accustoms himself easily to moderate his opinions as well as his tastes. While the European endeavors to forget his domestic troubles by agitating society, the American derives from his own home that love of order which he afterwards carries with him into public affairs.

In the United States the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people. Among the Anglo-Americans some profess the doctrines of Christianity from a sincere belief in them, and others do the same because they fear to be suspected of unbelief. Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent; the consequence is, as I have before observed, that every principle of the moral world is fixed and determinate, although the political world is abandoned to the debates and the experiments of men. Thus the human mind is never left to wander over a boundless field; and wh**ever may be its pretensions, it is checked from time to time by barriers that it cannot surmount. Before it can innovate, certain primary principles are laid down, and the boldest conceptions are subjected to certain forms which r****d and stop their completion.

The imagination of the Americans, even in its greatest flights, is circumspect and undecided; its impulses are checked and its works unfinished. These habits of restraint recur in political society and are singularly favorable both to the tranquillity of the people and to the durability of the institutions they have established. Nature and circumstances have made the inhabitants of the United States bold, as is sufficiently attested by the enterprising spirit with which they seek for fortune. If the mind of the Americans were free from all hindrances, they would shortly become the most daring innovators and the most persistent disputants in the world. But the revolutionists of America are obliged to profess an ostensible respect for Christian morality and equity, which does not permit them to violate wantonly the laws that oppose their designs; nor would they find it easy to surmount the scruples of their partisans even if they were able to get over their own. Hitherto no one in the United States has dared to advance the maxim that everything is permissible for the interests of society, an impious adage which seems to have been invented in an age of freedom to shelter all future tyrants. Thus, while the law permits the Americans to do what they please, religion prevents them from conceiving, and forbids them to commit, what is rash or unjust.

Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of society, but it must be regarded as the first of their political institutions; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion--for who can search the human heart?--but I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or to a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society.

In the United States, if a politician attacks a sect, this may not prevent the partisans of that very sect from supporting him; but if he attacks all the sects together, everyone abandons him, and he remains alone.

While I was in America, a witness who happened to be called at the Sessions of the county of Chester (state of New York) de- clared that he did not believe in the existence of God or in the immortality of the soul. The judge refused to admit his evidence, on the ground that the witness had destroyed beforehand all the confidence of the court in what he was about to say.3 The newspa- pers related the fact without any further comment.

The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other; and with them this conviction does not spring from that barren, traditionary faith which seems to vegetate rather than to live in the soul.

I have known of societies formed by Americans to send out ministers of the Gospel into the new Western states, to found schools and churches there, lest religion should be allowed to die away in those remote settlements, and the rising states be less fitted to enjoy free institutions than the people from whom they came. I met with wealthy New Englanders who abandoned the country in which they were born in order to lay the foundations of Christianity and of freedom on the banks of the Missouri or in the prairies of Illinois. Thus religious zeal is perpetually warmed in the United States by the fires of patriotism. These men do not act exclusively from a consideration of a future life; eternity is only one motive of their devotion to the cause. If you converse with these missionaries of Christian civilization, you will be surprised to hear them speak so often of the goods of this world, and to meet a politician . where you expected to find a priest. They will tell you that "all the American republics are collectively involved with each other; if the republics of the West were to fall into anarchy, or to be mastered by a despot, the republican institutions which now flourish upon the shores of the Atlantic Ocean would be in great peril. It is therefore our interest that the new states should be religious, in order that they may permit us to remain free." Such are the opinions of the Americans; and if any hold that the religious spirit which I admire is the very thing most amiss in America, and that the only element wanting to the freedom and happiness of the human race on the other side of the ocean is to believe with Spinoza in the eternity of the world, or with Cabanis that thought is secreted by the brain, I can only reply that those who hold this language have never been in America and that they have never seen a religious or a free nation. When they return from a visit to that country, we shall hear what they have to say. There are persons in France who look upon republican institutions only as a means of obtaining grandeur; they measure the immense space that separates their vices and misery from power and riches, and they aim to fill up this gulf with ruins, that they may pass over it. These men are the condottieri of liberty, and fight for their own advantage, wh**ever the colors they wear. The republic will stand long enough, they think, to draw them up out of their present degradation. It is not to these that I address myself. But there are others who look forward to a republican form of government as a tranquil and lasting state, towards which modern society is daily impelled by the ideas and manners of the time, and who sincerely desire to prepare men to be free. When these men attack religious opinions, they obey the dictates of their passions and not of their interests. Despotism may govern without faith, but liberty cannot. Religion is much more necessary in the republic which they set forth in glowing colors than in the monarchy which they attack; it is more needed in democratic republics than in any others. How is it possible that society should escape destruction if the moral tie is not strengthened in proportion as the political tie is relaxed? And what can be done with a people who are their own masters if they are not submissive to the Deity?

bmac32 Loc: West Florida

Lou- Just maybe they didn't want the state to be over taken like the homeland. The Church of England ruled with a King and that's what they were getting away from. The Constitution was ment to keep gov't out of religion and protect it not the other way.

Prayer was in every school until 1962 when the black robes decided it didn't belong there, notice any difference in schools today.

Homestead

It was a lot more than that.

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments
James Madison [1785]
http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/madison_m&r_1785.html

The 5000 Thousand Year Leap:

Jefferson's resolution for disestablishing the Church of England in Virginia was not to set up a wall between the state and the church, but, simply, as he explained it, for the purpose of "taking away the privilege and pre-eminence of one religion over another, and thereby establishing EQUAL RIGHTS AMONG ALL"

He felt that if he removed the advantage that one religion had over the others, because of the help from the state, that religion would flourish and multiply.

Lou Loc: Florida

Got nothing against school prayer , never did , and I believe it unfortunate the rulings of the SCOTUS . The Pledge of Allegiance is in line with the Constitution . It makes no mention of Christianity , but a Creator God .
And Ten Commandments displayed publicly , I have no problem with that either . Prayers specifying Christianity and Jesus are not appropriate in public schools . They were not used 45 years ago when I was in school . And the Beave , Wally , Ricky ,Ozzie and Harriet , all turned out ok .

rumitoid

That is what I have been saying.