PeterS

Very nicely said. I have often wondered why so many Christians will argue about the existence of god and ignore the teachings of his Son. Whether Christ is a god or not his teachings are valid and an appropriate path for all Men to walk. Now if walking that path will lead you anywhere after you are dead is irrelevant to the act of being a child of Christ and a follower of the path he laid before us...

PeterS

You can't prove an irrational argument. You can either believe it true--or not; there is no other position you can hold...

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

False! Judas was with the disciples because he was the one who carried the small cache of coins, in a bag, because he was a thief -

John 12:4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.



How do you determine "suicide" was involved? It said they were cut off. That is a term used by God when he is about to destroy a nation, it is not a reference to suicide. And "raising up a shepherd" is what he calls elevating a leader for Israel. it does not necessarily reference Messiah

Exodus 9:13 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth. 15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. 16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Your reference of Zec 11:9 uses an active verb; Something God is going to do.

Matthew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Judas hanged himself - middle verb. Something he did to himself.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Because He said so.


KJV Exodus 4:15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.

KJV Isaiah 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

KJV Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

KJV Jeremiah 1:9 Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.



KJV Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.



Joseph Smith is a fraud of the first order. 1st he claimed the angel Maroni gave him a set of golden tablets from God; then translated them for him; then removed them to take back to heaven, where no man could verify if it was true or not.

When God sends words to his prophets, they stay around for verification. And they are constantly used to show the falsity of doctrines and creeds made up by men.



I had a debate with one of their scholars who made the typical Mormon claims. He had a website where he claimed he won every debate (over 80 at that time) and I debated him, showed he is a fraud, and he never came back. His name is E.Watson.

All I did was show him the old testament story of the two prophets and the angel of I Kings 13 - Where God told a young prophet to go to the king and tell him the words of God; then told the prophet he was not to tarry, nor to eat bread nor to drink water, nor return the same way he came.

And old prophet came and told the young prophet "An angel from God told me..." and he began to convince the young prophet he should stay and eat and drink.

God destroyed the young prophet because he believe a message alleged to be from an angel, when he had already had the direct words from God Himself.

Paul reminded Christians of this when he said "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."[Gal 1:8]

E. Watson had no response.



Because God had Moses record all the transactions between Himself and God in a book and gave it to the Hebrew nation as "the law." It still exists for verification.



You decide - "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;[Rom 2:13-15]

If the Gentiles can do by nature the things of the law, to which Paul testifies, it stands to reason, good men of any generation can write laws that mimic the Hebrew laws, but without all the generic dietary and specificity of the Mosaic law.



Moses went up into the mountain forty days to receive the law at the hands of God. And no, he had no idea what God was going to tell him, because no nation on earth ever had a law like God gave to the Hebrew nation at the hand of Moses.



Not quite that desperate. The more one studies the issues and the documents used as source material, the more one begins to appreciate the simplicity involved in the giving of the law, and God giving his words in the mouths of prophets down through ages beyond contemplation.

As for being made out to be one mighty, mighty fool...
"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise."[I Cor 3:18]

I will speak of the wisdom which is from above, and bask in the glory that comes from God, and not worry about glory that comes from men.

PeterS

No you don't. You have the word of those who say god said it and nothing more. You can believe it or not. That's why faith is required to believe in god. You wouldn't need faith if you could actually believe that what was written was really true..



Did the Hebrews see god, or his angels, to verify that the laws Moses wrote down were actually given by god? Smith is no different that any of the others who say their words are inspired by god. If Smith is a fraud then you have given no reason to believe that the others aren't fraud too...



How would this dissuade anyone from their beliefs? Did you win the argument or simply think you did. There is a difference you know...



A book, written in the hand of Moses, still exists? So how does one go about verifying that? And once again how do you know it was god talking to Moses and not a flask of wine?



Then you are saying the laws of Moses are simply common law followed by all human beings naturally? So why are you saying these laws were inspired by god when clearly they don't need a supernatural origin?



You just said these laws were common to all men. You should read the Egyptian laws of Ma-at. The laws of the Hebrews aren't any different. I ask this because Moses was once an Egyptian Prince so would know the Laws of Ma-at by heart.



Like Jim Jones and David Koresh? How do you know they were any different than any of the rest?



You certainly have shown you have nothing to worry about. Now if you could only show that there was actually a god. All religion is based on irrationalism. Any irrational argument lacks the ability to be proved. Proving god is impossible so there is no reason to even ask the question. Accept him or don't but those who seek proof do so because they have no faith that god actually exists.

And FYI, I am not trying to initiate an argument. All religion takes faith to believe in it and no religion offers a rational proof--save for something like Scientology--but there we know the proof is nothing but bunk, at least most people, with the acceptation of Tom Cruz, believe so.

Believe whatever you want to believe--just understand your beliefs offer no rational proof...

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Because He said so.



So you have decided that if YOU don't know a thing, no one can know it?

fiatlux

Faith needs no proof, and proof undermines faith. You cannot argue against these basic and immutable facts.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

I would never try to. I would simply point out that both Faith and Proof are totally and completely dependent upon evidence, the same evidence, differing only by the result.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen."

"Proof" is the consensus of what evidence seems to show.

Proof does not "undermine faith." That is like saying "flooding undermines drought." it is speaking of two unrelated conditions; 1) of assessing evidence; 2) of weather conditions.

PeterS

No one can know 'hearsay' information that occurred thousands of years ago. We have difficulty confirming hearsay even when it is spoken today. This is why hearsay is seldom allowed as evidence in legal decisions.

We have only the word of the "Prophets" that god spoke to them. Whether he actually did is where faith comes in. If you have it fine, if you don't proving god won't provide it for you...

PeterS

If you have evidence then why is faith required to believe it? If I am holding a rock in my hand do I have to have faith that it is really there? Faith in what is provable isn't the same as faith in that which isn't. And flooding does undermine drought and no faith is required to understand that.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

You know it all the time, as "History." History is always written after the fact, usually from a mixture of eye-witness testimony and hearsay evidence.

But the scriptures are comprised of the testimony of eye-witness accounts, with one exception, Luke, who gathered his account from eye-witnesses.

There is no way you can demonstrate otherwise.



That is why the scriptures do not use it.



That is so patently false! You have the words of God, verified by fulfillment of prophecy; example - God foretold through prophecy over 200 years prior to the event, that the king would return captive Israel to their homes to rebuild the temple and the city walls of Jerusalem. And He named the king, so that when the king heard his name, he would know that Jehovah is God. That king was Cyrus, king of Persia, (now Iran) who did precisely as prophesied.



Nope! Whether he actually did is where FACT comes in. It was proved in the fulfillment.



If you have the FACTS, you don't have to prove anything. Being a FACT constitutes PROOF.

Faith comes from accepting other things claimed by the one who has proven his word about other things in other times and other circumstances. When one demonstrates prophecy by fulfillment, other statements lend to His veracity.

Faith is very misunderstood - it is not simply blind trust. It is assessment of the degree of trust that can be placed in the words of another.

God forbids blind faith and ignorant worship. It has to be based upon a trust that what God says is demonstrably true. Once it has been demonstrated to be true, it does not require being demonstrated again for every generation.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Because evidence is not proof. There is no such thing as "proof." There is evidence which is to be assessed as to possibility; probability; observation; consistency; and consensus. And all consensus can do is demonstrate a degree of agreement as to the propriety of the assessment.

Sometimes an event will be witness by two or more who give different account as to what was witnessed. And sometimes one witness will become convinced by another witness, to consider a different perspective as to his prior conclusion as to the interpretation of his assessment. That produces two witness who are now in agreement.

If that process continues to the point of assessment becoming consensus, the conclusion will be "it has been proved." And THAT is what constitutes "PROOF."

FAITH, on the other hand, is accepting something from evidence you cannot see. You cannot see the wind, but you can assess the result thereof. You cannot see the Holy Spirit of God, but you can assess the result thereof. You cannot see the effect of God's words on the hearts of Men, but you can assess the results thereof.

The biggest problem faced by Christians today, is that they must attempt to understand something that is completely revised by the power of Satan himself.

God demanded that His people do thing sin the exact order in which He gave them instruction. When they changed the order, bad things happened. When they returned to the order established by God through instruction, things progressed.

The Holy spirit of God inspired writers to write the new Testament in a Specific order. Satan convinced the leaders, even some in Paul's own day, to begin to teach new converts {"Babes in Christ"} by teaching them "The Life Of Christ" first, followed by the history of the advances made by the new church; after which anything could follow, because the damage was done by that time.

Instead of reading Galatians (48A.D.) to learn of Peter's failure in teaching the Gentiles, and Peter subsequently and consequently being replaced by Paul the Apostle, they now learned from the replacement writing of Mathew's gospel (52A.D.), that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom, and authority to bind and loose on earth what was bound and loosed in Heaven. Peter was later established as the first Pope, because of this idiocy.(606A.D.) Boniface the 3rd (In A.D. 606 emperor Phocus,
appointed Boniface III as the first pope. For the first six centuries there was no ecumenical council called but what was called by an emperor never by a pope! ) All kind of false doctrine became "ORTHODOX DOCTRINE" because of this chain of events, the most obvious and wide spread, being "Trinity doctrine," declared "Orthodoxy" in 452 A.D.



Wrong application! What you have is knowledge. Faith is a process. If you are holding a rock, and threaten to throw it to hit me, it is "I" who must either believe or disbelieve the evidence of your testimony. You have knowledge; I have only your testimony that 1) you are in possession of a rock; and 2) testimony as to your intent; and 3) an assessment of whether or not you can throw the alleged rock a sufficient distance with a sufficient degree of accuracy necessary to hit me to do me damage.

Usually this would not be construed as "faith" because FAITH is not based upon fear, but rather is about some good based upon the degree of faith established upon proper assessment of evidence.

But the example I give you is to show the difference between your assessment of faith, and the reality of knowledge.



Knowledge of drought and flood are required for understanding that flood does not "undermine" drought. It eliminates it. "Undermining" comes from digging a tunnel in the earth to remove material; and later building another tunnel under the first, causing it to collapse, because it has been "undermined."

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

How do you? Were you there?

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

Have you read Revelation of Hell and also The Revelation of Heaven, it was written by a women who dreamt it. I've read them and are pretty interesting. On you not believing that Christ can be your personal Savior and is the Son of God is being on the broad road. Study yourselves to be shown approved to know the difference as written. We are in the Dispensation of Grace but the devils spirit is free to be here on earth. Let's see what these seeds do for you because we are in the end times, the sixth trump, sixth bowl & sixth vial. then satan (little horn) is cast down from heaven. Woe to the people on earth because of the devil.

susanblange Loc: USA

A horn is a phallic symbol, and a symbol of power. The "little horn" represents a woman. This horn is also said to be diverse from the other horns, or kings. I agree we are living in the last days and the Messiah should come by October, 2016. Jesus is dead and gone and he was not the Messiah or the son of God. He has been reincarnated, is the leader of the "sons of darkness" and this time he will burst into flames. Ezekiel 28:18-19. "...and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee".