Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

I know people who quit trying to understand their bible, and stopped going to church because they just could never "PROVE" that God is real.

I found something better than "Proof."
I found "Rewarded Faith."

And the difference is so great, because "Proof" that doesn't "Prove" is of no value. But "Rewarded Faith" has its rewards. See how that works? Now Consider...

What would you consider "proof?"

There is no such thing, you know.

Or, maybe you don't know.

So let me be first to tell you. There is no such thing as "proof."

Proof is not a reality. It is an abstract; it is a conclusion reached from evaluating evidence. As we each evaluate evidence in a different way; and as each of us has to rely on different experiences, backgrounds educations, even our inter-relationships. We cannot evaluate evidence exactly the same way.

This is where a concept called "concensus" comes into play. If a greater number of "evidence evaluators" seem to approach one conclusion, over another, if sufficient agreement is reached, we tend to conclude something has been "proved."

Take two possibilities as regards God.
A) Exist; Then - B) not exist.

If A) -then not B); If not A -then B)

If God exists, we have no way of testing the posit. We cannot rely upon empirical evidence, as it does not apply. We cannot measure, nor weigh God, nor can we limit, nor free Him. We can establish no parameters in any capacity whatsoever.

The "Thomistic Reality" fails in that it only leads to an ever wider circle of questions. For, even if you discover
"Thomistically" that God is a reality, you still know absolutely nothing about him, except for his "Thomistic" cause. He then becomes an effect of our own logical premise.

But, if God reveals Himself to us, we can then weigh the evidence of what he tells us, against what results from what He tells us.

Back to "If not God - then ...What?

So, Back to -B) not exist

If God does not exist, we must start with Three basic assumptions;
1) Matter always existed
2) Energy always existed
3) Energy somehow acted upon matter, causing a reaction, which concluded in all that we now "Thomistically" see, and examine, as evidence. (Thomistic Evidence is comprised of what we can measure of experience; i.e., what we can see, hear, smell, touch, weigh, measure; plus phenomenology, etc. developed by Thomas Aquinus)

Or "Assume" God. Since we cannot "find out" God, for he tells us he is "past finding out," suppose we simply listen to what he has to say about himself, and put THAT to the test. Remembering, we have no way of testing HIM. But we are told to test his word. "Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good," the Apostle tells us.

Now to our original argument, as relates to "Proving" the existence of God. Can't be done!

I believe I can, however, show enough evidence to believe that what God says about himself, is more reasonable than to assume B) -Not God over A)-God

Or to put it another way.

It is more reasonable (Come let us reason together saith the Lord) to assume God; and then look to God as He reveals to us about Himself; than it is to assume Not-God; and try to find answers in science, or man's reason, or logic, as to where the concepts of Soul, Guilt, Forgiveness, conscience, and such like, come from. They are neither energy, nor matter; Thus could NOT have come about from Energy acting upon Matter. There HAS TO BE another explanation.

And God is much easier to work with than non-existent evidence. We at least have His cooperation in our search for truth.

Often we first become discouraged, then frustrated; finally Futility enters our thoughts, as we seek truth against a barrage of "authorities." Doctors of Theology; men with lists of degrees behind their names. Schools of great reputation making lofty pronouncements; Long Histories of doctrine offered as evidence. Empiricists, galore; And so it goes.

But God said, "Come, let "US" reason together. You and God. Not WE and God. God wants you to reason with HIM. God does however, have one ally, who is a constant companion to Him, and dear to his heart. It is Wisdom. Wisdom tells us in Proverbs eight, of her origin. Before God did anything else, He brought forth Wisdom.

Wisdom was present when God created, in the beginning. It was to Wisdom God spoke when He said "Let us make man in our image." [Gen 1:26]

We then, are made in the Image of God and Wisdom. Is it any wonder we stand and gaze hungrily towards the heavens, not looking for a big bang to satisfy our soul's longing; But rather, looking to our maker, for comfort in a very hard situation?

No Sir! I cannot "prove" the existance of God. But I sure derive a great deal of comfort in the evidence that has come my way, and in the understanding He has given me.

The strange thing about it is, that you also can find comfort in His word. Just quit looking to the denominational doctrines, and start reading, praying, weeping, whatever it takes, and He will show you. That is the very first thing promised to all men. SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND!

God said it.

I believe it.

That settles it.

I am - Overwhelmed by the evidence for his being - And Rewarded for my Faith.

PeterS

What else do these idiots need? Of course, it is "written" by man so who is to say god said it and not some guy coming down from a bender???

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

If you would spend more time reading the bible instead of books about the bible, you might change your mind.

God put "HIS WORDS" in the mouths of the prophets. THAT MAKES A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE. In fact, it makes the difference between His world and ours.

susanblange Loc: USA

God is coming to the earth and the entire world will witness it. Amos 4:12 "...prepare to meet thy God, O Israel". Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen..." Isaiah 11:9 "...for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea". The resurrection on the mount of Olives will be the absolute, final proof. Zechariah 14:9 "...in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one".

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Are you sure? Looks to me like the Earth will be just a tad too hot to handle.

susanblange Loc: USA

I am not a Christian and I do not consider the NT to be scripture. IOW, the holy word of God. I am a fundamentalist and the scriptures speak of three judgments by fire. First the enemies of God, secondly the wicked, and last all remaining Christians and idolaters. God will be like Zeus is portrayed and will be able to throw a lightning bolt. Isaiah 30:30 "And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm..."

smurphy Loc: Co

As I understand it, faith not only requires no proof or support of any kind, proof is an attack on faith. Our certainty does not make God real but our love makes God present.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim were destroyed by fire and brimstone.

Egypt was rained upon when God judged them with hail and fire.

I am not aware of any prophecies dealing with burning Christians as a judgment against idolaters, and neither do you.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Faith requires no "proof" but relies upon "evidence of things not seen."

Relies upon "EVIDENCE." That preceeds even proof.

Faith is not just blind acceptance of rhetorical claims.

susanblange Loc: USA

Christians have pronounced their own judgment. They think all non believers will burn forever in hell. There is no fire in hell, the fire is going to be on earth. Hell is a black hole. It is darkness, freezing cold, hyper gravity, and a bottomless pit.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Is that an eye-witness report?

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

What commentary are you getting your religious bias from?



Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

susanblange Loc: USA

Actually, it is Theo. I had a vision of my own death almost 32 years ago. I went to heaven in a whirlwind and hell was beneath me. It's a troubled sea containing a whirlpool. It's also very noisy, there is no peace there.

susanblange Loc: USA

I do not believe the NT to be the holy word of the living God. The OT is complete concerning the Messiah, from birth to resurrection. It requires no addition or elaboration. We should stick to the OT, at least we have that in common. I do not believe Jesus was the Messiah or the son of God.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

I think the biggest problem Christians have is determining what constitutes judging. Paul said "If we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged." That is a reference to any person looking real hard at what they are about to do, as though it was someone else, and how someone else would be judged for doing the same thing.

Many folks tend to judge their own actions as O.K., but benign; and every one else's as "suspect."