Why is it so important for us to "Prove" God exists? (Page 2): Perhaps it was an understanding you derived from your reading. No one knows if the death they are seeing in their sleep...

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

susanblange wrote:

Actually, it is Theo. I had a vision of my own death almost 32 years ago. I went to heaven in a whirlwind and hell was beneath me. It's a troubled sea containing a whirlpool. It's also very noisy, there is no peace there.

Perhaps it was an understanding you derived from your reading. No one knows if the death they are seeing in their sleep is their own or simply a warning pertaining to some activity that endangers one's safety.

And I cannot disagree with your description, because I have no Homestead privileges on the hereafter.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

susanblange wrote:

I do not believe the NT to be the holy word of the living God. The OT is complete concerning the Messiah, from birth to resurrection. It requires no addition or elaboration. We should stick to the OT, at least we have that in common. I do not believe Jesus was the Messiah or the son of God.

The problem I have with depending upon only the OT, is the simple fact it depends so much upon the genealogies for verification. And the genealogical records were destroyed with the temple by the romans.

But the New testament lays out a very precise rendition of the OT prophecies, defending its claims by use of those very genealogies that were available to be checked by authorities, who never questioned it at all.

Of course, there are many frauds going after the eye-witness accounts today, who question everything. But they do not count, because they fail to acknowledge the testimony and judgment of those who were there and gave their testimony, and were not considered liars by their contemporaries and authorities who had power over them.

If you read the accounts in the New Testament, where Jesus warned the inhabitants of what was coming, and compare it with the writings of Josephus, it is amazing how precise and accurate the New Testament was. And none of Josephus' contemporaries corrected Him, either.

susanblange Loc: USA

Theo wrote:

Perhaps it was an understanding you derived from your reading. No one knows if the death they are seeing in their sleep is their own or simply a warning pertaining to some activity that endangers one's safety.

And I cannot disagree with your description, because I have no Homestead privileges on the hereafter.

When I had the vision, I was awake. Afterwards, all I could say was, "Wow". Numbers 24:4, 16. "...which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open..." This vision was accurate concerning what happens to the spirit after the death of the soul (body). It was just like near death experience.

fiatlux

Theo wrote:

Faith requires no "proof" but relies upon "evidence of things not seen."

Relies upon "EVIDENCE." That preceeds even proof.

Faith is not just blind acceptance of rhetorical claims.

Sorry, that makes no sense. To the soul who has always had faith and trusted in God, no signs (evidence) are needed. Evidence contradicts faith, seen or not seen.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

fiatlux wrote:

Sorry, that makes no sense. To the soul who has always had faith and trusted in God, no signs (evidence) are needed. Evidence contradicts faith, seen or not seen.

And your analysis contradicts scripture.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen."[Heb 11:1]

susanblange Loc: USA

fiatlux wrote:

Sorry, that makes no sense. To the soul who has always had faith and trusted in God, no signs (evidence) are needed. Evidence contradicts faith, seen or not seen.

When the Messiah comes, there will be a multitude of signs and wonders. There will be signs at his spiritual rebirth and throughout his ministry.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

fiatlux wrote:

Sorry, that makes no sense. To the soul who has always had faith and trusted in God, no signs (evidence) are needed. Evidence contradicts faith, seen or not seen.

Signs were always supplied to convince Men of new things. But the next generation did not have to have their own signs; they were to believe the eye-witness accounts of those who had seen the signs, and believed.

signs were for a reason, and for a time, and for a witness. Once that witness is proclaimed, signs are no longer necessary. That does not eliminate the original signs, they just do not stick around to be seen by later generations.

John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." This remark is addressed to those who did not see what Thomas had seen, but believed the testimony of Thomas about what he had seen.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

susanblange wrote:

When the Messiah comes, there will be a multitude of signs and wonders. There will be signs at his spiritual rebirth and throughout his ministry.

Yah - well, if you don't believe the eye witness reports of those who saw him the first time, you won't believe it any other time either.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

susanblange Loc: USA

Theo wrote:

Yah - well, if you don't believe the eye witness reports of those who saw him the first time, you won't believe it any other time either.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Jesus was a false prophet who says in many places in the NT that the end would come during the lifetime of his apostles and disciples. Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom". But Christians have hope for his return. Isaiah 57:9-10 "...and didst send thy messengers [missionaries] far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell. Thou art wearied in the greatness of thy way; yet saidst thou not, There is no hope..." If Jesus is in bodily form, what do you think he looks like after 2000 years?

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

susanblange wrote:

Jesus was a false prophet who says in many places in the NT that the end would come during the lifetime of his apostles and disciples. Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom".

He only said it once, And it did indeed end for the Hebrew nation, because the temple was destroyed in 70 a.d. by Roman soldiers, just as prophesied.

How often do you go to the temple to worship every year? It is a requirement you know, for Jews to return to Jerusalem for several annual feast days, but alas! there is no temple, no sacrifices, no genealogies by which to determine who should be a priest; no...

But you get the picture. You cannot be a faithful Hebrew under the present conditions of Judaism; yet you try to assert Judaism as the everlasting kingdom, and don't even listen to your own prophets.

Sad!

Quote:

But Christians have hope for his return. Isaiah 57:9-10 "...and didst send thy messengers [missionaries] far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell. Thou art wearied in the greatness of thy way; yet saidst thou not, There is no hope..." If Jesus is in bodily form, what do you think he looks like after 2000 years?

You don't want to talk about the prophecies, but ask me about speculations?

Pass!

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

susanblange wrote:

Christians have pronounced their own judgment. They think all non believers will burn forever in hell. There is no fire in hell, the fire is going to be on earth. Hell is a black hole. It is darkness, freezing cold, hyper gravity, and a bottomless pit.

Not so. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that "non believers will burn forever in hell". Nor does the Bible describe hell in such relative terms. A literal reading of the Bible doesn't cut it. It takes some real study to comprehend metaphor, analogies, parables, and symbolism, especially when attempting to understand spiritual matters. English translations often do not do justice to the meanings of the original languages--Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

fiatlux wrote:

Sorry, that makes no sense. To the soul who has always had faith and trusted in God, no signs (evidence) are needed. Evidence contradicts faith, seen or not seen.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 11

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

susanblange wrote:

When I had the vision, I was awake. Afterwards, all I could say was, "Wow". Numbers 24:4, 16. "...which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open..." This vision was accurate concerning what happens to the spirit after the death of the soul (body). It was just like near death experience.

Are you doing mushrooms or something? Some Peyote rituals, tripping on LSD?

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

susanblange wrote:

I do not believe the NT to be the holy word of the living God. The OT is complete concerning the Messiah, from birth to resurrection. It requires no addition or elaboration. We should stick to the OT, at least we have that in common. I do not believe Jesus was the Messiah or the son of God.

Are you serious? There is no disconnect between the Old and New Testaments. The OT prophets spoke in great detail of the coming of Yeshua Ha-Mashiach, who He would be, what He would do, and the Sacrifice He would make. How is it possible to cling only to the unfulfilled prophecies in the OT and reject their fulfillment in the NT?

What do you suppose Isaiah meant when he said, "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was broken for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed". (This one is tricky because Isaiah is speaking in past tense. Which, BTW, makes his prophecy all the more powerful--if, of course, you understand the context)

Jesus, His Disciples and the Apostles often alluded to the prophesies of the OT.

What did Jesus mean when He said:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

susanblange Loc: USA

Blade_Runner wrote:

Are you serious? There is no disconnect between th... (show quote)

Jesus fulfilled absolutely no OT messianic prophecy. The NT says that everything that was not fulfilled was "nailed to the cross". Colossians 2:14. Christianity is all about the crucifixion and resurrection. The OT laws were a covenant between God and Israel. What is the covenant in the NT? There is a lot more to righteousness than faith and belief. Abraham trusted and obeyed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Psalms 22 and 69 are not about a crucifixion, they are about something that would happen in the Messiah's childhood.