Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

I have stood by for a long time, wondering whether my small voice would make any impact upon the debate, currently raging in society, on the subject of Abortion. I look at the whole issue as misnamed, to begin with. The issue does not revolve around Abortion per se, anymore than it revolves around adultery, or Birth Control, per se. It revolves around the issue of determining at what point life begins in the womb.

Once the issue is properly identified, and resolved, the other issues will fall into their natural niches. To resolve the issue, then, let us take a look at life as it is born into the world.

The new baby, most of the time, is said to be "alive," depending upon various and sundry "vital- signs." Yet, we do not conclude that the baby "became" alive at the moment of birth. So I think we can agree, life begins before the moment of birth.

If the very definition of "life" involves the ability to point precisely to some perceived "spark," at which time an embryo becomes viable, or "alive," then I'm afraid the debate will continue to rage unabated. But I really believe we can do better than that in our approach to such an important issue.

The first question I would raise, is a very simple one. Was the egg "alive," or dead, at the precise moment it was joined by the sperm? Was the sperm "alive?" If the egg and sperm were dead, how could they then become a zygote, and grow to an embryo?

The simple answer to this question, then, is, both the egg and the sperm were alive. Did the mother originate life in the egg at the precise moment she passed it from the ovary to the Fallopian chamber to begin its cycle, or was the egg alive when it was first produced into the cycle of the system?

The second question pertains to the sperm. Did the male give it life at the precise moment it left his testicle, to begin its journey in the cycle, or was the sperm alive while it resided in the male, awaiting the ejaculation process?

Now, we know that some Males are sterile, and cannot beget children. I do not address that issue here. And some Females cannot bear children. I do not address that issue, in this offering. The only issue I address is that of identifying the precise moment of the beginning of definable "life" in "the cycle of life."

I could get into a discussion of the effect of "puberty" upon the young potential Father, and Mother, but it would prove to be futile, because there have been no definitive scientific studies published, to my knowledge, pertaining to the moment "life" is passed to the egg and the sperm, and how it is effected by Puberty. So, let's move on.

If the child is alive prior to puberty, than Life MUST reside in the body of the child, in order to mature in the adult. Where did it come from? Did the potential parent go to the doctor for a "progeny" shot. No! Not within the cycle in question.

Now, if life can be determined to be within the child, and passes to the adult by maturation, prior to mating; and in the child, prior to maturation, and prior to puberty, from where did it come? Vitamins in the food, perhaps? No! Minerals? No! I don't believe it can be shown to be dietary in nature; Though diet may very well play a part in other aspects of the cycle of life,i.e., as in passing it on.

The answer is simple, and leaves nothing to debate. "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a "living" soul." Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)

"...AND GOD SAID unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth..." Genesis 1:28 (King James Version)

After God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful, and multiply, and after man was cast from the garden, God revealed to them a secret, which still has men debating to this day. He told them where "life" was located in the cycle of life and death.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood:...

Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for THE LIFE OF ALL FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Deut 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for THE BLOOD IS THE LIFE; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

And so GOD TELLS US that the process by which "life" is passed to the egg begins with production of the egg, passes on to when the egg attatches itself to the wall of the uterus, and blood vessels are formed, by which life continues to be nourished in the egg, in the zygote, in the embryo, in the baby, in the Birth canal, In the passage of birth, and after the umbilical cord is cut, life continues in the new-born. It did not originate in any step of the cycle. It was passed from Parent to child, all the way back ot its origin..... in the Garden. Similar events are present in production of the sperm, life is not "originated" IN the donor, it is passed on THROUGH the donor.

Some folks claim "My body is mine, I have the right to abort if I want to." To which I will always respond "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and Ye are NOT your own? For ye are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit which are God's." [1. Cor 6:19-20]

Life in the womb began in the Garden with Adam and Eve, and has not been interrupted or changed by proclamation, by science, by Priestly incantation, or by any machination of man, of which I am aware, so when one of the debaters can show me someone who came into this world separate and apart from the cycle of life, as herein described, I shall re-evaluate my conclusion.

"Test-tube" babies do not change the cycle, for they began within its purview and were simply transported elswewhere to tintillate the minds of scientists that want to play like they are gods in their own right.

It matters not how science plays with what God has provided, they still must begin with that provision. And it was provided in the garden to Adam and to Eve, and has come uninterrupted to you and to me.

Now we who know and love the truth must be heard. Baby murder is murder, no matter the cause, nor the justification claimed by the murderers. You can no longer claim "But Lord, I did not know it was murder, I was told it is simply "birth control."

"Birth Control" begins with one word, at the appropriate time. The word is "NO" and the appropriate time is when your man friend says "Let's make love." It is not "o.k." for you to acquiesce in the heat of passion, then murder the resultant gift of God.

There are accounts of women in the bible who died giving birth[Gen. 35:17-19 for one] rather than abort, should tell you what is important to the God-fearing woman.

She Wolf Loc: Currently Georgia

Just my opinion, abortion is not a form of birth control. There are many other options available to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. However abortion is a matter for the woman and her doctor to decide.

I don't believe in abortion so, I won't have one. My religion teaches children are sacred. I do not have the right to force my beliefs upon others and neither does any other religion.

I do not want to live under the religious dogma of any sect. I want to be free to choose my own path. What is the difference in having Islam forced on people or other religions? None.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

I watched in the 60's as women were introduced to their own form of birth control in what the pharmaceuticals called "The morning after pill." Women began to invest heavily in the science of pharmaceuticals, even as their moral bar was lowered, and their moral compass began to waver in every wind.

"Do what ever you want" they shouted to the crowds, adding "You only hurt yourself, no one else is involved." And that was the mantra popularized in the day.

And "baby murders" increased till it reached into multiple millions per year over a period of several years.

Now we are desperate for enough people to do the work to keep a society at the same level of industry, because we have aborted the generation that would have become of age to take those jobs.

Abortion is murder, not "life saving." And the life of that baby did not begin at "conception." It began way back with the first man and woman, uninterrupted for thousands of years. Scientists cannot replicate life in the lab, and priests and ministers cannot explain away the genealogical path from the newborn to the first born among mankind. It is all one complete and sacred cord umbilically joining generations innumerable.



Right! Like a woman saying "NO!" and meaning it.



Totally misguided. That is assigning the man's offering to the realm of garbage to be removed at the woman's whim.
Totally unrealistic and uncalled for; as well as mythical proportion of unreality.

The woman has no "Exclusive right" to the offspring result of two people's activity. It was "Her body" but she gave it to a man to do with it as he would, and when she realized there was a consequence to that "joining" she took it back and claimed it once more as "Exclusively hers."

What a farce!



Agreed! It is not a "Religious belief" I am offering, it is a national survival.

If your read history and see that nations that fall below a certain level in moral turpitude, fall into further decay quickly, and are brought down in one of four ways; Storm; blight; enemy activity; new form of disease that destroy nations.

Historically, these have been common and usually explained as caused by a deity; maybe so, maybe not. And it does not change anything. What matters is that it is historically consistent.

I really think we should consider the possibility and share the findings with our fellow Americans.



That differs not one whit from my own goal.



If I convince you of the historical aspect, you may change, and you will still have a head on your shoulders by which to implement that change.

Need I explain how that works with Islam?
None.[/quote]

Armageddun Loc: The show me state

Amen, good post.

Artemis

:shock: WOW :roll: So now life begins before conception...wow Really, let me know how that works. Stop looking at history, we are nothing like history any more, guess what, we have progressed and evolved. We now know things we didn't know before, imagine that.

You live by you philosophy and let the rest of us live ours. Abortion, which I am not for personally, is not a form of birth "control".

Women should be taught when they can get pregnant, it is staggering how many women haven't a clue.

The day after pill sounds like a viable remedy to many women who were caught unprepared the night before. With that said it may increase a rise in STD's.

This argument that life begins before conception or at is ludicrous and a lost argument for todays woman.

What it truly comes down to is a woman does not want to grow a fetus, she will find a way not to, many times at her own peril. Due to the... fact.... it is her body, not the mans surely and not the fetus's. That's no religion just fact

Armageddun Loc: The show me state

Do you have any grandchildren or children??

fiatlux

The answer to the question is hate is murder, no matter who does it. The only difference between a fundamentalist Christian and Muslim is the focus of their limited vision;other than that,they are the same. Religion or faith is secondary to the spiritual malady they both share, a mere prop or excuse to exorcise their particular demons. Neither serves God. Fundamentalism is both a spiritual and mental disorder. Christ's metaphors about the kingdom of heaven proves this fact.

Certainty is of ego, a psychological need that defeats wonder, love, curiosity, spontaneity, awe, and all the passive and vulnerable natural workings of the mind for the false safety of knowing truth. It is cognitive dissonance on steroids. I am sorry, but Genesis is so obviously not a literal account of creation, only those in great need to suppress trauma in their past would cling to this supposed "rock."

Fear is the enemy! And many Christians are quick to add kindling or fuel to this blaze that is devouring both faith and reason. If Islamic Extremists are our enemy, according to Christ,we should be showing them our willingness to die for them, not our potential to kill them.

Just noticed your last comment about abortion: if a person causes an abortion, and life begins at conception, what should be his punishment according to scripture? Obviously, death. An Innocent life has been taken. The Ten Commandments tells us clearly death is called for in such an instance. But what does scripture say? Not death, but a monetary recompense. How could that be?

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

The life is in the blood. When the woman's egg falls into the Fallopian tube, it attaches to the wall, and a connection is made by which blood can flow both ways, so the Mother's blood can filter out waste material from the new-forming life. As the new lifeform grows, the blood carries out all the functions of filtering and providing nutrients by which the newform is nourished and cleansed by life itelf.

The last thing that goes from mother to child is the umbilical, which is a blood supply for two-way life-sustaining activity.

The egg was alive when it left to begin its journey, as also was the sperm from the male participant. The egg and the sperm did not begin life at the moment of activation. They carried life through a process. No theologian, no scientist can demonstrate or theorize an exception to this "history" at which you scoff.



That is simply false! History is the story of how we became so arrogant we can deny ourself historically.



So how did YOU begin life? Hatched? Cloned? Evolved HOW?



Then why do you still have to ask " WOW So now life begins before conception...wow Really, let me know how that works" -



What - You are now going to pretend my little essay stopped you from living your life? You got that from my post? get real!



You live in a phantasy world. First they breed, then they murder, to control the result of breeding. They have become worse than the animals we breed for food, because the animals cannot help their selves, and the women seem to be in the same condition.



How long has it been since you tried to "teach a woman" anything? She is more liable to "take it under advisement," ponder awhile, and store it in the "too much information" container adjacent to the brain.



Rewriting History are we? How exactly is "sounds like a viable remedy" going to serve as "we know more than we did" - expecially since "we have evolved?"



THAT is your "Evolved" condition? Call truth "ludicrous" and excuse murder on the basis of women losing an argument?



No "fact." Total bullshit. If the body is not the fetus's, how did the fetus get within the confines thereof? Are you telling me the fetus invaded from without? Without consent and permission? Are you saying the fetus is growing in the wrong body? The body in which it is growing is not it's home? It is there but not by right of ownership? That the fetus has no right to utilize that umbilical lifeline? Did the baby form the umbilical, or did the Mother? It did not grow from both and meet in the middle you know. Or maybe you don't know. It develops within the process between both equally "at home" participants. It is the fetus's body of need, and the woman's body of supply; but to deny it is the fetus's first body is to simply plead ignorant, or even stupid.

I would very much like for you to develop your theory of
"evolution" that includes murder of the next generation.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Are you speaking of a "Christian?" or are you speaking of someone who makes the claim to be a Christian? There is a world of difference. One learns to memorize scripture; Scripture itself tells us "The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." The other allows the spirit to lead and teach.

The scripture does not teach Christians to memorize scripture and boast of knowledge gained thereby. Because knowing memorized words is simply an increased vocabulary; but yielding to the spirit gains insight not found in the calling up of memorized vocabulary.

The scriptures teach many things to Christians, that are not taught in churches today. Like "there is no doctrine of original sin depraving mankind;" and, "Only a man could serve as a Mediator between God and Men;" and "The sins of Jesus;" and a myriad of other scriptural connections never discovered by memorizing scripture.



True for Muslim deathlove and Christian memorizing, both of which result in death.



You need to define your terms, as it may not mean the same to you as it does to others. Are you using
"fundamentalism" to reference ""Orthodox doctrine?" Or are you saying something else?



Then what is the meaning of "Be still AND KNOW that I am God."



Bad metaphor. Thought process does not utilize steroids.



Care to point out the error(s)?



Fear can be a great incentive; "Fear God..."



Die "FOR" them? It would simply be a wasted death, for I am a sinner. I do not qualify as mediator who can die FOR other. I may well die BY the hand of other, but that is not the same thing.



I have no clue as to where you got "monetary recompense"
from what "Scripture says." Care to share that source?

Artemis

We're discussing a topic, don't make this personal. Abortion is not any form of controlling anything.

I'm simply stating a fact proven by history, if a woman does not want to bear a child ...she will not. She will find a way, even at risk of her own life, as proven in the past with young girls dying in desperation. Now maybe you feel they deserve that outcome, I don't know.

There are many forms of viable birth "control".

Artemis

Your wrong, without the sperm entering the egg there is NO new life form, period! Get over your righteous theologies.

I'm a woman, for you to tell me the function of the woman's body is condescending and arrogant.

Tell me how many days out of a month can a woman become pregnant?

Artemis

Armageddun Loc: The show me state

You are so indifferent to the control of other babies being aborted yet are not willing to say how you would feel if it happened within your family or circle of friends. Abortion controls the death of a living being. How can you say with the death of 56 million plus babies that abortion control nothing.

Artemis

On the contrary, but I am a realists.

Armageddun Loc: The show me state

Does a realists see the reality of 56 million lives being snuffed and now found to be having some of their body parts sold for profit :?: :?:

That is a hard reality to face.

What is the difference between a woman having the right to kill her baby, and a woman driving into a lake with her child strapped in while she jumps out just before it goes into the water.

For one act she is free, for the other she goes to jail. Where is the realists in this :?: :?: