A Question (or two) for you Conservatives Out there .. (Page 3): This, I believe, has more to do with purposely underfunded and understaffed schools in minority neighborhoods (part of...

American Vet

whitnebrat wrote:

Thanks for expanding the situation. I was trying to limit it to the American experience. I appreciate your adding to the discussion.

I would have to disagree with your description of CRT. While it emphasizes the dominance of white s***eowners, I don't believe that it intentionally demonizes w****s as being responsible for all the a*********ns of s***ery. My understanding is that it tries to emphasize the roots of the s******c r****m that we experience to this day for almost any minority community. As I pointed out, there is a dearth of minorities in the upper echelons of corporate America, and that isn't going away very soon.
You point out the disparities in the black population in education and economic progression. This, I believe, has more to do with purposely underfunded and understaffed schools in minority neighborhoods (part of the s******c r****m problem). Wealthy school districts (predominantly white) have always enjoyed better teachers and school buildings. In many instances, the minority schools have received the dregs of both maintenance, schoolbooks, and teachers. This, in turn, leads to significantly lower educational levels and dropout rates in minority neighborhoods, in turn lowering the ability of minorities to advance to better paying jobs. The tax base is therefore eroded in these districts, which affects school budgets, and the cycle perpetuates itself. The answer here is to equalize the educational opportunities for all public schools, and thereby increase the ability of these minority districts to increase their tax base. Unfortunately, when this has been tried in some districts, they experienced 'white flight' to private schools and adjacent districts (or to the suburbs) where the educational opportunities were better.
I hear the screams of 'socialism' and 'why should w****s have to pay for the education of minorities', and 'this is a redistribution of wealth'. I can't deny that it is indeed a levelling of the economic playing field, but overall it increases the economic status of the entire area if the average educational level is improved. More businesses, more manufacturing and more industry is the end result of improving the educational level of the entire area.

Thanks for expanding the situation. I was trying t... (show quote)

This, I believe, has more to do with purposely underfunded and understaffed schools in minority neighborhoods (part of the s******c r****m problem).

You may believe this; however, your belief does not constitute a "fact". Do you have anything to back up your argumentative comment?

whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon

steve66613 wrote:

Your post implies that history must be taught in a way which imposes penalties on modern society. Furthermore, history must be viewed in the context of today’s social standards

I said no such thing. I'm in favor of FACTUAL HISTORY, not interpretations of what that history meant. There is no implication of any penalty for telling a true history. It is what it is.

Quote:

The history of mankind has more often been brutal, than filled with jubilation. But, no amount of self-f**gellation, today, will change one second of history. No application of modern terms or phrases will change anything.
Study history? Absolutely! Weaponize history……no thanks.

I agree with you completely on this statement. Unfortunately, 'history is usually written by the victor,' which leads to biased accounts of events.

whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon

keepuphope wrote:

All we have to do is look at your location and it explains your bloviating We really need to wall off you and California with your own safe space.

In many ways, that would be a relief.

whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon

American Vet wrote:

This, I believe, has more to do with purposely underfunded and understaffed schools in minority neighborhoods (part of the s******c r****m problem).

You may believe this; however, your belief does not constitute a "fact". Do you have anything to back up your argumentative comment?

Take a look at almost any big city and check the school budgets for various neighborhoods and suburbs. It'll be obvious.
A classic example would be the contrast between Hillsboro, Burlingame and San Mateo and surrounding districts in the San Francisco peninsula.

American Vet

whitnebrat wrote:

Take a look at almost any big city and check the school budgets for various neighborhoods and suburbs. It'll be obvious..

Nope- I won't do your work for you.

You made the claim - you back it up.

Weswill

whitnebrat wrote:

Why is it wrong to teach about s***ery in our schools? It has existed since 1619 in America (proven fact). It wasn't called that back then, but "indentured servitude" was a definite thing in New England until the Civil War. In the South, of course, s***ery was a way of life until the Emancipation Proclamation of Lincoln in 1863. After the "War of Northern Aggression", s***ery existed for another century in an economic sense until the Civil Rights Act of 1964. What's wrong with teaching this to our kids as factual history?

Economic s***ery exists to this day for minorities. Why can't we admit that and teach it to a younger generation?

S******c R****m (commonly called Critical Race Theory or CRT) is a fact of life. It exists, and even the most diehard conservative knows this, even if they won't admit it. I wonder what they will say when admission quotas are lifted at Harvard and other colleges and their student body will become over 50% Asian-American. What will be the story then? Why are there so few minorities on the Boards of Directors of major corporations (this includes women, by the way.)

The basis for all this is, of course, white male evangelical supremacy in all its glory … whether explicit or implied. The country was founded with that concept in mind, and it has perpetuated in various forms to this day. When that supremacy is challenged by the rise of minority rights or populations, it comes to the fore and becomes dogma for all kinds of suppression to those segments of society that oppose it. Witness v****g suppression in Republican-held states and challenges to minority v****g in national e******ns. This is a classic case of s******c r****m, i.e. maintaining that supremacy at all costs. To say that it is to insure the accuracy of the v**e and prevent fraud is an insult to the intelligence of any patriotic American. The e******n of 2020 was one of the fairest and most accurate e******ns in our history with virtually no fraud being detected despite numerous recounts and audits. The gutting of the V****g Rights Act of 1965 by the Supreme Court open the way for this particular try at suppression to happen.

These attempts at supremacy have failed every time they has emerged in this country. They will fail again, only to repeat a few decades from now. This cycle has only been temporarily broken when minorities and women were given the right to v**e, and v**er suppression is the latest attempt to maintain that superiority that is so endemic in our society.

The only way to keep from repeating the mistakes of the past is to learn from history. Sweeping large parts of our history under the rug because the older generation feels uncomfortable for their part in perpetuat
ing those mistakes is not a reason for burdening the next generation with ignorance of them, thus dooming them to repeating those mistakes.

Why is it wrong to teach about s***ery in our scho... (show quote)

It is nothing wrong with teaching our kids about s***ery. But teaching them that all black people are suppressed and have no hope to change that because of their skin color is wrong. And to teach our kids that all white people are r****t and are the black peoples suppressor is wrong.
You talk of s******c r****m. Hmmm. When a group of people agree to declare war on a country to gain our freedom from it and those people are the leaders, the generals and the ones who plan most things are members of one race, the White race, would you think those people would give all of what they accomplished away to another group or race of people, the black race? To the Victor belongs the spoils. In the Bible when the Egytians conquered the Israelites, the Egyptians did not give power or ask the Israelites what they thought. They were ens***ed. So when we defeated England , it was mainly white men that was is control and made the decisions and plans that won us our freedom. Our founding fathers were mostly white men and were ahead of their time when writing our constitution and Bill of rights seeing that there might be a need to add to it or take away through amendments and the like. Most all our laws and rights were written by white men as well as our form of government. So why is it a surprise to people that white men who were the leaders of the revolution and our country wrote our laws, Rights and form of government?? The Civil War was the major start of gaining civil rights. And the Union survived. Since that time we have seen changes to our laws and rights in order to bring all of our citizens together under e******y. This change could not and did not happen over night but over many years. And is still happening. Some good things and some bad things. And by the way by white men mostly.
From 1776 till 1865 is roughly 90 years of s***ery under our nation as it gained its freedom in 1776. We were a s***e nation with many s***es that helped in building America through hard work and free labor. A very bad and sad part of our history , but our history never the less, and I see none of it being swept under the rug. I think we have come a long way since then. But it is very difficult to right a wrong in a short period of time. Especially when the effected is a small part of the citizenry. And who had little power and influence. Change has been slow in coming just as women have been able to v**e only since 1920. Change has come slowly but it has come and it continues today. But some people want more and think that some of our v****g laws are regressing backwards but I see no sign of v**er suppression in these laws.
In remembering our history, let's make sure all of our history is taught and don't ignore any of it. Just because white men have had power and made most of our laws don't make it out that that history needs to be replaced by only what black people did or didn't do. Let's embrace all the good, bad and ugly history that we as Americans have and move forward together.

Weswill

whitnebrat wrote:

Show me factual evidence that can be introduced in court, and I'll agree with you about v***r f***d. Sixty-plus cases were thrown out of court without a single factual shred of evidence of v***r f***d.

Your meritocracy argument might work for you, but I suspect that white, Hispanic and black applicants might not see it that way.

What about illegal and unconstitutional e******ns conducted by some states by changing e******n laws by bypassing their states legislature. That is facts that were attempted to be brought before the Supreme Court , but it refused to hear any facts. That alone would have changed the e******n results. So there you go . Some evidence that could be heard in court but it was refused only because the court did not want to get involved with the e******n.

WEBCO

whitnebrat wrote:

Thanks for expanding the situation. I was trying to limit it to the American experience. I appreciate your adding to the discussion.

I would have to disagree with your description of CRT. While it emphasizes the dominance of white s***eowners, I don't believe that it intentionally demonizes w****s as being responsible for all the a*********ns of s***ery. My understanding is that it tries to emphasize the roots of the s******c r****m that we experience to this day for almost any minority community. As I pointed out, there is a dearth of minorities in the upper echelons of corporate America, and that isn't going away very soon.
You point out the disparities in the black population in education and economic progression. This, I believe, has more to do with purposely underfunded and understaffed schools in minority neighborhoods (part of the s******c r****m problem). Wealthy school districts (predominantly white) have always enjoyed better teachers and school buildings. In many instances, the minority schools have received the dregs of both maintenance, schoolbooks, and teachers. This, in turn, leads to significantly lower educational levels and dropout rates in minority neighborhoods, in turn lowering the ability of minorities to advance to better paying jobs. The tax base is therefore eroded in these districts, which affects school budgets, and the cycle perpetuates itself. The answer here is to equalize the educational opportunities for all public schools, and thereby increase the ability of these minority districts to increase their tax base. Unfortunately, when this has been tried in some districts, they experienced 'white flight' to private schools and adjacent districts (or to the suburbs) where the educational opportunities were better.
I hear the screams of 'socialism' and 'why should w****s have to pay for the education of minorities', and 'this is a redistribution of wealth'. I can't deny that it is indeed a levelling of the economic playing field, but overall it increases the economic status of the entire area if the average educational level is improved. More businesses, more manufacturing and more industry is the end result of improving the educational level of the entire area.

Thanks for expanding the situation. I was trying t... (show quote)

You are excusing the actions of African Americans born here.

I completely reject the notion that the US is systemically rascist. The facts prove otherwise. How is it that b****s who immigrate here do exponentially better then those born here?

Quit making excuses for them, that in itself is rascist, and hold them to the same standards as everyone else. The democrats have been pandering to, and degraded, black people for way too long. Simply expect from them what you expect from anyone else.

School choice is the answer for education. Have the money follow the child, it works great where I live. My 8 year old is in 3rd grade and taking Latin, music, and chorus. It's a real school that actually teaches children, he also has to learn cursive and write a 3 page research paper.

federally indicted mattoid

nonalien1 wrote:

It isn't the republicans erasing our past .

Uh... yes it is.

Who's banning books? Who's screeching about critical race theory?

federally indicted mattoid

whitnebrat wrote:

Thanks for expanding the situation. I was trying to limit it to the American experience. I appreciate your adding to the discussion.

I would have to disagree with your description of CRT. While it emphasizes the dominance of white s***eowners, I don't believe that it intentionally demonizes w****s as being responsible for all the a*********ns of s***ery. My understanding is that it tries to emphasize the roots of the s******c r****m that we experience to this day for almost any minority community. As I pointed out, there is a dearth of minorities in the upper echelons of corporate America, and that isn't going away very soon.
You point out the disparities in the black population in education and economic progression. This, I believe, has more to do with purposely underfunded and understaffed schools in minority neighborhoods (part of the s******c r****m problem). Wealthy school districts (predominantly white) have always enjoyed better teachers and school buildings. In many instances, the minority schools have received the dregs of both maintenance, schoolbooks, and teachers. This, in turn, leads to significantly lower educational levels and dropout rates in minority neighborhoods, in turn lowering the ability of minorities to advance to better paying jobs. The tax base is therefore eroded in these districts, which affects school budgets, and the cycle perpetuates itself. The answer here is to equalize the educational opportunities for all public schools, and thereby increase the ability of these minority districts to increase their tax base. Unfortunately, when this has been tried in some districts, they experienced 'white flight' to private schools and adjacent districts (or to the suburbs) where the educational opportunities were better.
I hear the screams of 'socialism' and 'why should w****s have to pay for the education of minorities', and 'this is a redistribution of wealth'. I can't deny that it is indeed a levelling of the economic playing field, but overall it increases the economic status of the entire area if the average educational level is improved. More businesses, more manufacturing and more industry is the end result of improving the educational level of the entire area.

Thanks for expanding the situation. I was trying t... (show quote)

keepuphope Loc: Idaho

soontobeindicted mattoid wrote:

Uh... yes it is.

Who's banning books? Who's screeching about critical race theory?

Banning sexually explit books for school kids and CRT which is one man's opinion of the past when he wasn't even there is a public service. History should be based on facts by the people who lived it not 2 generations after the fact.

American Vet

soontobeindicted mattoid wrote:

Uh... yes it is.

Who's banning books? Who's screeching about critical race theory?

And where have Republicans "banned" books? Hint: No where

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

whitnebrat wrote:

Why is it wrong to teach about s***ery in our schools? It has existed since 1619 in America (proven fact). It wasn't called that back then, but "indentured servitude" was a definite thing in New England until the Civil War. In the South, of course, s***ery was a way of life until the Emancipation Proclamation of Lincoln in 1863. After the "War of Northern Aggression", s***ery existed for another century in an economic sense until the Civil Rights Act of 1964. What's wrong with teaching this to our kids as factual history?

Economic s***ery exists to this day for minorities. Why can't we admit that and teach it to a younger generation?

S******c R****m (commonly called Critical Race Theory or CRT) is a fact of life. It exists, and even the most diehard conservative knows this, even if they won't admit it. I wonder what they will say when admission quotas are lifted at Harvard and other colleges and their student body will become over 50% Asian-American. What will be the story then? Why are there so few minorities on the Boards of Directors of major corporations (this includes women, by the way.)

The basis for all this is, of course, white male evangelical supremacy in all its glory … whether explicit or implied. The country was founded with that concept in mind, and it has perpetuated in various forms to this day. When that supremacy is challenged by the rise of minority rights or populations, it comes to the fore and becomes dogma for all kinds of suppression to those segments of society that oppose it. Witness v****g suppression in Republican-held states and challenges to minority v****g in national e******ns. This is a classic case of s******c r****m, i.e. maintaining that supremacy at all costs. To say that it is to insure the accuracy of the v**e and prevent fraud is an insult to the intelligence of any patriotic American. The e******n of 2020 was one of the fairest and most accurate e******ns in our history with virtually no fraud being detected despite numerous recounts and audits. The gutting of the V****g Rights Act of 1965 by the Supreme Court open the way for this particular try at suppression to happen.

These attempts at supremacy have failed every time they has emerged in this country. They will fail again, only to repeat a few decades from now. This cycle has only been temporarily broken when minorities and women were given the right to v**e, and v**er suppression is the latest attempt to maintain that superiority that is so endemic in our society.

The only way to keep from repeating the mistakes of the past is to learn from history. Sweeping large parts of our history under the rug because the older generation feels uncomfortable for their part in perpetuating those mistakes is not a reason for burdening the next generation with ignorance of them, thus dooming them to repeating those mistakes.

Why is it wrong to teach about s***ery in our scho... (show quote)

What a glorified r****t you are!!!

FallenOak Loc: St George Utah

whitnebrat wrote:

Why is it wrong to teach about s***ery in our schools? It has existed since 1619 in America (proven fact). It wasn't called that back then, but "indentured servitude" was a definite thing in New England until the Civil War. In the South, of course, s***ery was a way of life until the Emancipation Proclamation of Lincoln in 1863. After the "War of Northern Aggression", s***ery existed for another century in an economic sense until the Civil Rights Act of 1964. What's wrong with teaching this to our kids as factual history?

Economic s***ery exists to this day for minorities. Why can't we admit that and teach it to a younger generation?

S******c R****m (commonly called Critical Race Theory or CRT) is a fact of life. It exists, and even the most diehard conservative knows this, even if they won't admit it. I wonder what they will say when admission quotas are lifted at Harvard and other colleges and their student body will become over 50% Asian-American. What will be the story then? Why are there so few minorities on the Boards of Directors of major corporations (this includes women, by the way.)

The basis for all this is, of course, white male evangelical supremacy in all its glory … whether explicit or implied. The country was founded with that concept in mind, and it has perpetuated in various forms to this day. When that supremacy is challenged by the rise of minority rights or populations, it comes to the fore and becomes dogma for all kinds of suppression to those segments of society that oppose it. Witness v****g suppression in Republican-held states and challenges to minority v****g in national e******ns. This is a classic case of s******c r****m, i.e. maintaining that supremacy at all costs. To say that it is to insure the accuracy of the v**e and prevent fraud is an insult to the intelligence of any patriotic American. The e******n of 2020 was one of the fairest and most accurate e******ns in our history with virtually no fraud being detected despite numerous recounts and audits. The gutting of the V****g Rights Act of 1965 by the Supreme Court open the way for this particular try at suppression to happen.

These attempts at supremacy have failed every time they has emerged in this country. They will fail again, only to repeat a few decades from now. This cycle has only been temporarily broken when minorities and women were given the right to v**e, and v**er suppression is the latest attempt to maintain that superiority that is so endemic in our society.

The only way to keep from repeating the mistakes of the past is to learn from history. Sweeping large parts of our history under the rug because the older generation feels uncomfortable for their part in perpetuating those mistakes is not a reason for burdening the next generation with ignorance of them, thus dooming them to repeating those mistakes.

Why is it wrong to teach about s***ery in our scho... (show quote)

A close study of the American way of life shows that the Dem party has promised many times to make the lives of minorities better. The Rep party usually does not promise to make the lives of minorities better. The Rep party in that case are actually more t***hful than the Dem party. I believe if you check history of the parties during the period of reconstruction you will find that under Rep leadership there were more b****s in congress, both houses, than after when the Dem party was also allowed to return and reconstruction ended. Historically the Dems promise while the Reps just sort of ignore and hope the problem will go away. Wasn't it LBJ who got Civil Rights passed but then conveniently forgot to follow through. The same problems predating that legislation still exist. The Dem party has been in power holding both houses and the presidency several times in the past half century but the problems still exist. The problem is not the Rep but the unwillingness of the Dem party to give more than empty promises.
I believe at the present time in history both parties are creating dissention in Washington to draw away the limelight being focused on both parties inability or neglect to do anything. The whole thing is a shell game and the American public are listening to the pitchmen who have you buying hook, line, and sinker. That is why I make it a practice never to v**e for a Dem and very rarely v**e for a Rep.

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

whitnebrat wrote:

Why is it wrong to teach about s***ery in our schools? It has existed since 1619 in America (proven fact). It wasn't called that back then, but "indentured servitude" was a definite thing in New England until the Civil War. In the South, of course, s***ery was a way of life until the Emancipation Proclamation of Lincoln in 1863. After the "War of Northern Aggression", s***ery existed for another century in an economic sense until the Civil Rights Act of 1964. What's wrong with teaching this to our kids as factual history?

Economic s***ery exists to this day for minorities. Why can't we admit that and teach it to a younger generation?

S******c R****m (commonly called Critical Race Theory or CRT) is a fact of life. It exists, and even the most diehard conservative knows this, even if they won't admit it. I wonder what they will say when admission quotas are lifted at Harvard and other colleges and their student body will become over 50% Asian-American. What will be the story then? Why are there so few minorities on the Boards of Directors of major corporations (this includes women, by the way.)

The basis for all this is, of course, white male evangelical supremacy in all its glory … whether explicit or implied. The country was founded with that concept in mind, and it has perpetuated in various forms to this day. When that supremacy is challenged by the rise of minority rights or populations, it comes to the fore and becomes dogma for all kinds of suppression to those segments of society that oppose it. Witness v****g suppression in Republican-held states and challenges to minority v****g in national e******ns. This is a classic case of s******c r****m, i.e. maintaining that supremacy at all costs. To say that it is to insure the accuracy of the v**e and prevent fraud is an insult to the intelligence of any patriotic American. The e******n of 2020 was one of the fairest and most accurate e******ns in our history with virtually no fraud being detected despite numerous recounts and audits. The gutting of the V****g Rights Act of 1965 by the Supreme Court open the way for this particular try at suppression to happen.

These attempts at supremacy have failed every time they has emerged in this country. They will fail again, only to repeat a few decades from now. This cycle has only been temporarily broken when minorities and women were given the right to v**e, and v**er suppression is the latest attempt to maintain that superiority that is so endemic in our society.

The only way to keep from repeating the mistakes of the past is to learn from history. Sweeping large parts of our history under the rug because the older generation feels uncomfortable for their part in perpetuating those mistakes is not a reason for burdening the next generation with ignorance of them, thus dooming them to repeating those mistakes.

Why is it wrong to teach about s***ery in our scho... (show quote)

whitnebrat, congratulations. You started a very intelligent conversation. But almost 100% was totally against your many positions and answered extremely well by a lot of great posters. Facts were presented that throughly debunked your original position. You tried to respond, but obviously missed many great points. I would love to write extensively on this, but it would mostly be repeating what was already said and proven. I would only hope you reread everything and learn from it. Including many of the references.

Just a couple of quick points. If most of Harvard went Asian and brought out brilliant students, that would be great. Especially if they were American and stayed American or become American. They are there because their parents made them study and their efforts were rewarded. Giving their spots to those not as qualified has two faults. It takes away a slot that a really talented kid should have had, and would more likely make use of it through their life. And those that aren't as talented, but are in by a racial quota system, are more prone to failure and holding back the entire class.

Another point I didn't see in those wonderful responses, and these numbers are just wild guesses based on things in general, is that there may be say 15% of the population that is black and maybe 10% are really poorer then most. Well, guess what. There are probably more w****s then that 10% in just as poor conditions. They are also there because their parents didn't succeed as well as others, and held minimal level jobs. It is not necessarily r****t, just incapable, and they pass it on to the next generation. A culture of not necessarily black or white, but underachievers passing it on. What is needed is some level of equity in availability of basic education. Including everything mentioned by so many of your responders. School choice is a very good sounding possibility for achieving that. But it also must follow up with choice based on the students abilities and efforts and results. Certainly not the equity provided by public school union teachers. Their salaries and choice positions should be based on achievements, not attendance. After a certain point, the best courses need to go to those students that earned that option due to their diligence and efforts and achievements. They are the ones most likely to succeed. Race and sex should never be a qualifying factor. With those concepts, poor w****s and poor b****s should have the same chances as each other and maybe even achieve as much as those from more wealthy families. With their parents insistence on study and efforts and their help.

As for e******ns, all people should want fair and honest e******ns, with v**er I. D. at all levels, minimal early and absentee v****g with proven need, and fair and open and verified counting procedures. Conservatives and Republicans want this and assert this. Democrats seem to want avenues were things can or might happen that enhance their positions and results. Just my observation over a lifetime and I'm 82. So, quit this illusion that we are for unfair and biased e******n. Totally disproven.

Just some random thoughts
Logically Right