Christians and Israel
Sep 30, 2019 21:16:22 #
You actually said, "when several of you were ganging up and attacking Doc," meaning Doc110?
Then you said,
"I have never heard of Catholics reciprocating their concern over Protestant theology, faith and practice and attacking them like Protestants attack Catholics."
To refresh your memory:
Following is Doc's opinion of all other denominations than Catholicism
Posted at: https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-148143-1.html
Posted by Doc110: 02/06/2007
Please, Don’t Call Protestants Christians
Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.
https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m013rpProtestantsChristians.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPC0N0U0aco
It is very common today to hear Catholics call a Protestant “a Christian,” or even, “a good Christian.”
In the United States, it was already a practice before Vatican II because of the tendency of American Catholics to accommodate Protestantism, whose tonus dominated the social and business spheres.
Then, there was the question of adaptation as prominent Protestants joined the Catholic faith, or Catholics entered into marriages with Protestants.
It was just easier to call everyone “Christian.” Supposedly it underplayed differences.
It was meant to create the impression that Catholics and Protestants were cousins in one big, happy family.
Pope Leo XIII condemned this tolerance toward Protestantism under the name of Americanism, the heresy of Americanism, to be more precise.
After Vatican II, needless to say, the practice of calling Protestants Christians has snowballed, with the official conciliar documents assuming this same impropriety.
Hence, the Holy See, Prelates and priests have made its use as widespread as possible.
Accommodation to Protestantism in our days has reached such a point that some Catholics, to distinguish between Catholics and their Protestant “separated brethren,” call themselves Catholic Christians.
A redundancy if I've ever heard one.
Only Catholics can be true Christians.
No one who dissents from the Roman Catholic Church can be a Christian.
The terms are synonymous.
Every time I hear the term Christian used for Protestants, I cringe. Its usage clearly nourishes a trend toward a dangerous religious indifferentism.
Which denies the duty of man to worship God by believing and practicing the one true Catholic Religion.
It is an implicit admission that those who deny the one Faith can nonetheless be Christians, that is, be in the Church of Christ.
Inherently it leads to the progressivist notion that men can be saved in any religion that accepts Christ as Savior.
A “good Lutheran,” a “good Anglican,” a “good Presbyterian –
What does it matter so long as they are good people and sincerely love Christ?
Regardless of who is applying this usage today, I want to stress that it is at variance with the entire tradition of the Catholic Church until the Council.
To consider heretics as Christians is not the teaching of the Church.
Before Vatican II, the Magisterium was always very clear:
It is not a matter of an individual’s character or traits.
No one can be in the Church of Christ without professing the ensemble of the truths of Catholic Faith, being in unity with the Chair of Peter and receiving the same Seven Sacraments.
The only Christian is one who accepts Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Church he established.
Who can have God for Father and not accept the Church for Mother? (Pope Pius IX, Singulari quidem of March 17, 1856)
Who can accept the spouse Christ, and not his mystical bride the Church?
Who can separate the Head, the only begotten Son of God, from the body, which is His Church?
(Pope Leo XIII, Satis cognitum of June 29, 1896). It is not possible.
In short, only those who profess the one Catholic Faith and are united with the Mystical Body of Christ are members of the Church of Christ.
And only those members can legitimately bear the title of honor of Christian.
The Protestant sect started as a revolt, protesting the Church of Christ and, pretending to accept Christ without Peter, the authority He established on earth.
With this split, they left the Church and became heretics.
This used to be clearly said and understood, without sentimental fear of offending one’s neighbors or relatives:
A Protestant is a heretic because he severed himself from the Body of the Church.
He is not a Christian, and certainly not a “good Christian.”
Scriptures confirm this truth
My friend Jan thought I was being too severe on this topic.
“You’re making a mountain out of a molehill,” She said.
“Don’t Scriptures teach us to love our neighbor and not be judgmental?”
It is the same old post Vatican II story, claiming that it is “judgmental” to correct bad practices and false teachings and arguing with disputable interpretations of Scriptures.
Well, despite these subjective interpretations, the inspired words of Scriptures provide an unambiguous defense that the custody of the vineyard has been committed by Christ to the Catholic Church alone.
Let me quote just a few verses:
“He who hears you (Peter) hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me.
(Lk 10:16).”
It could not be clearer:
The Protestant who rejects the head, rejects Christ himself, and should not be granted the name Christian.
Christ establishes one Church with a single head:
"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
(Matt 16:19).
St. Paul is severe in his condemnation of false teachers, e.g. Protestants:
“If any man preaches any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
(Gal 1: 9).
In another passage he instructs Catholics to remove themselves from the bad society of non-Catholics:
“And we charge you, brethren, in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the Tradition which they have received of us.”
(2 Thess 3:6).
The Apostle St. John forbade any intercourse with heretics: “If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house or welcome him.”
(2 Jo 1:10)”
Holy Scriptures are clear on the point that only those who belong to the one Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church, can rightfully be considered Christians.
Popes reiterate this teaching
The traditional Papal Magisterium was also clear on this topic. Let me offer a few texts by way of exemplification.
Pius XII stated unequivocally:
“To be Christian one must be Roman.
One must recognize the oneness of Christ’s Church that is governed by one successor of the Prince of the Apostles who is the Bishop of Rome, Christ’s Vicar on earth”
(Allocution to the Irish pilgrims of October 8, 1957).
How is it possible to be clearer than this about those who can be called Christian?
Leo XIII makes it plain that separated members cannot belong to the same body: “So long as the member was on the body, it lived; separated, it lost its life.
Thus the man, so long as he lives on the body of the [Catholic] Church, he is a Christian; separated from her, he becomes a heretic”
(Encyclical Satis cognitum of June 29, 1896).
Emphasizing the fate of those who break away from the one Faith, he says:
“Whoever leaves her [the Catholic Church] departs from the will and command of Our Lord Jesus Christ; leaving the path of salvation, he enters that of perdition.
Whoever is separated from the Church is united to an adulteress.”
(ibid.).
Certainly, they do not share with us the same title of Christian.
Pope Pius IX stated:
“He who abandons the Chair of Peter on which the Church is founded, is falsely persuaded that he is in the Church of Christ.”
(Quartus supra of January 6 1873, n. 8).
In the Syllabus of Modern Errors,
The proposition that Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion was specifically condemned.
(Pius IX, n. 18)(1).
Therefore, there is only one Christian Church, the Catholic Church, and only those who belong to it should rightfully be called Christians.
How to fight Americanism?
Many persons ask me:
What can I do to fight Progressivism?
Others have requested:
Give me some specific examples of how I can combat Americanism.
Let me offer one concrete way to fight in yourself the tendency toward accommodation with Protestantism.
When you catch yourself calling a Protestant a “Christian,”
Stop and correct yourself.
Call him a Protestant.
It is a way to affirm that you do not accept the Protestant errors and that you acknowledge it for the terrible thing it is:
Protestants denied many Catholic dogmas and for this reason caused that first major crack in the unity of the Catholic Church that caused untold damage to Christendom and the perdition of those souls adhering to it.
It is a small thing, but by such small customs we as a people have been walking steadily toward religious indifferentism.
It is time to set some roadblocks on that path. We should not veil in ambiguous terms our love for the ensemble of the Catholic Faith.
The only true union possible for Catholics with Protestants is by their return to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.
Only with such a return can they rightfully call themselves Christians."
End of Doc110 Post
Any questions?
Then you said,
"I have never heard of Catholics reciprocating their concern over Protestant theology, faith and practice and attacking them like Protestants attack Catholics."
To refresh your memory:
Following is Doc's opinion of all other denominations than Catholicism
Posted at: https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-148143-1.html
Posted by Doc110: 02/06/2007
Please, Don’t Call Protestants Christians
Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.
https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m013rpProtestantsChristians.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPC0N0U0aco
It is very common today to hear Catholics call a Protestant “a Christian,” or even, “a good Christian.”
In the United States, it was already a practice before Vatican II because of the tendency of American Catholics to accommodate Protestantism, whose tonus dominated the social and business spheres.
Then, there was the question of adaptation as prominent Protestants joined the Catholic faith, or Catholics entered into marriages with Protestants.
It was just easier to call everyone “Christian.” Supposedly it underplayed differences.
It was meant to create the impression that Catholics and Protestants were cousins in one big, happy family.
Pope Leo XIII condemned this tolerance toward Protestantism under the name of Americanism, the heresy of Americanism, to be more precise.
After Vatican II, needless to say, the practice of calling Protestants Christians has snowballed, with the official conciliar documents assuming this same impropriety.
Hence, the Holy See, Prelates and priests have made its use as widespread as possible.
Accommodation to Protestantism in our days has reached such a point that some Catholics, to distinguish between Catholics and their Protestant “separated brethren,” call themselves Catholic Christians.
A redundancy if I've ever heard one.
Only Catholics can be true Christians.
No one who dissents from the Roman Catholic Church can be a Christian.
The terms are synonymous.
Every time I hear the term Christian used for Protestants, I cringe. Its usage clearly nourishes a trend toward a dangerous religious indifferentism.
Which denies the duty of man to worship God by believing and practicing the one true Catholic Religion.
It is an implicit admission that those who deny the one Faith can nonetheless be Christians, that is, be in the Church of Christ.
Inherently it leads to the progressivist notion that men can be saved in any religion that accepts Christ as Savior.
A “good Lutheran,” a “good Anglican,” a “good Presbyterian –
What does it matter so long as they are good people and sincerely love Christ?
Regardless of who is applying this usage today, I want to stress that it is at variance with the entire tradition of the Catholic Church until the Council.
To consider heretics as Christians is not the teaching of the Church.
Before Vatican II, the Magisterium was always very clear:
It is not a matter of an individual’s character or traits.
No one can be in the Church of Christ without professing the ensemble of the truths of Catholic Faith, being in unity with the Chair of Peter and receiving the same Seven Sacraments.
The only Christian is one who accepts Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Church he established.
Who can have God for Father and not accept the Church for Mother? (Pope Pius IX, Singulari quidem of March 17, 1856)
Who can accept the spouse Christ, and not his mystical bride the Church?
Who can separate the Head, the only begotten Son of God, from the body, which is His Church?
(Pope Leo XIII, Satis cognitum of June 29, 1896). It is not possible.
In short, only those who profess the one Catholic Faith and are united with the Mystical Body of Christ are members of the Church of Christ.
And only those members can legitimately bear the title of honor of Christian.
The Protestant sect started as a revolt, protesting the Church of Christ and, pretending to accept Christ without Peter, the authority He established on earth.
With this split, they left the Church and became heretics.
This used to be clearly said and understood, without sentimental fear of offending one’s neighbors or relatives:
A Protestant is a heretic because he severed himself from the Body of the Church.
He is not a Christian, and certainly not a “good Christian.”
Scriptures confirm this truth
My friend Jan thought I was being too severe on this topic.
“You’re making a mountain out of a molehill,” She said.
“Don’t Scriptures teach us to love our neighbor and not be judgmental?”
It is the same old post Vatican II story, claiming that it is “judgmental” to correct bad practices and false teachings and arguing with disputable interpretations of Scriptures.
Well, despite these subjective interpretations, the inspired words of Scriptures provide an unambiguous defense that the custody of the vineyard has been committed by Christ to the Catholic Church alone.
Let me quote just a few verses:
“He who hears you (Peter) hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me.
(Lk 10:16).”
It could not be clearer:
The Protestant who rejects the head, rejects Christ himself, and should not be granted the name Christian.
Christ establishes one Church with a single head:
"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
(Matt 16:19).
St. Paul is severe in his condemnation of false teachers, e.g. Protestants:
“If any man preaches any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
(Gal 1: 9).
In another passage he instructs Catholics to remove themselves from the bad society of non-Catholics:
“And we charge you, brethren, in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the Tradition which they have received of us.”
(2 Thess 3:6).
The Apostle St. John forbade any intercourse with heretics: “If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house or welcome him.”
(2 Jo 1:10)”
Holy Scriptures are clear on the point that only those who belong to the one Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church, can rightfully be considered Christians.
Popes reiterate this teaching
The traditional Papal Magisterium was also clear on this topic. Let me offer a few texts by way of exemplification.
Pius XII stated unequivocally:
“To be Christian one must be Roman.
One must recognize the oneness of Christ’s Church that is governed by one successor of the Prince of the Apostles who is the Bishop of Rome, Christ’s Vicar on earth”
(Allocution to the Irish pilgrims of October 8, 1957).
How is it possible to be clearer than this about those who can be called Christian?
Leo XIII makes it plain that separated members cannot belong to the same body: “So long as the member was on the body, it lived; separated, it lost its life.
Thus the man, so long as he lives on the body of the [Catholic] Church, he is a Christian; separated from her, he becomes a heretic”
(Encyclical Satis cognitum of June 29, 1896).
Emphasizing the fate of those who break away from the one Faith, he says:
“Whoever leaves her [the Catholic Church] departs from the will and command of Our Lord Jesus Christ; leaving the path of salvation, he enters that of perdition.
Whoever is separated from the Church is united to an adulteress.”
(ibid.).
Certainly, they do not share with us the same title of Christian.
Pope Pius IX stated:
“He who abandons the Chair of Peter on which the Church is founded, is falsely persuaded that he is in the Church of Christ.”
(Quartus supra of January 6 1873, n. 8).
In the Syllabus of Modern Errors,
The proposition that Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion was specifically condemned.
(Pius IX, n. 18)(1).
Therefore, there is only one Christian Church, the Catholic Church, and only those who belong to it should rightfully be called Christians.
How to fight Americanism?
Many persons ask me:
What can I do to fight Progressivism?
Others have requested:
Give me some specific examples of how I can combat Americanism.
Let me offer one concrete way to fight in yourself the tendency toward accommodation with Protestantism.
When you catch yourself calling a Protestant a “Christian,”
Stop and correct yourself.
Call him a Protestant.
It is a way to affirm that you do not accept the Protestant errors and that you acknowledge it for the terrible thing it is:
Protestants denied many Catholic dogmas and for this reason caused that first major crack in the unity of the Catholic Church that caused untold damage to Christendom and the perdition of those souls adhering to it.
It is a small thing, but by such small customs we as a people have been walking steadily toward religious indifferentism.
It is time to set some roadblocks on that path. We should not veil in ambiguous terms our love for the ensemble of the Catholic Faith.
The only true union possible for Catholics with Protestants is by their return to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.
Only with such a return can they rightfully call themselves Christians."
End of Doc110 Post
Any questions?
padremike wrote:
I do not wish to re-read and relive those times wh... (show quote)
Sep 30, 2019 21:47:23 #
padremike wrote:
I have no idea who you are, who attacked you, or what it was about! So enlighten me on my selective memory and also was the comment, you claim you were attacked on, combative? You have noticed that an individual who challenges and demeans us about the Holy Trinity has Christians, from different denominations, supporting one another and rejecting him. The church you attend is........?
Sorry, I left out Doc110's name.
Oct 1, 2019 09:10:18 #
Righteous Wrath is shared by all who are capable of understanding and caring that our nation is under siege by an entire party of lawless, godless seekers of money, pleasure and power.
With all due respect, you did not witness abject hatred toward Roman Catholics.
The man made ideology, i.e., doctrines of the Roman Catholic institution in Rome, upon examination, is not Biblical.
Regarding your reference to the Screwtape letters, they were written 79 years ago; they as well as C.S. Lewis's biography are in my home library.
https://mentalfloss.com/article/64351/12-things-you-might-not-know-about-screwtape-letters
In July 1940, C.S. Lewis came up with the idea of a senior demon named Screwtape mailing trade secrets and frank pointers to his greenhorn nephew, Wormwood, who has been charged with corrupting a human soul. Inspired, the author worked at breakneck speed, frequently knocking out an entire letter in one sit-down session.
It took Professor Lewis only slightly over six months to write all 31 of the Screwtape letters.
...as for the olive branch, a symbol of peace or victory found in most cultures of the Mediterranean basin; associated with peace in modern Europe and used in the Arab world. The symbol first appears in Ancient Egypt as a symbol of peace many centuries before appearing in ancient Greek mythology.
My focus is Jude 1:3, and would be so if you had never been born, consequently,
having never been at war with you as an individual, an olive branch would be superfluous.
If the Jesus Christ you worship is now seated next to God the Father as the only mediator between God and man, as the Bible clearly teaches, we agree on that.
(1st Timothy 2:5)
With all due respect, you did not witness abject hatred toward Roman Catholics.
The man made ideology, i.e., doctrines of the Roman Catholic institution in Rome, upon examination, is not Biblical.
Regarding your reference to the Screwtape letters, they were written 79 years ago; they as well as C.S. Lewis's biography are in my home library.
https://mentalfloss.com/article/64351/12-things-you-might-not-know-about-screwtape-letters
In July 1940, C.S. Lewis came up with the idea of a senior demon named Screwtape mailing trade secrets and frank pointers to his greenhorn nephew, Wormwood, who has been charged with corrupting a human soul. Inspired, the author worked at breakneck speed, frequently knocking out an entire letter in one sit-down session.
It took Professor Lewis only slightly over six months to write all 31 of the Screwtape letters.
...as for the olive branch, a symbol of peace or victory found in most cultures of the Mediterranean basin; associated with peace in modern Europe and used in the Arab world. The symbol first appears in Ancient Egypt as a symbol of peace many centuries before appearing in ancient Greek mythology.
My focus is Jude 1:3, and would be so if you had never been born, consequently,
having never been at war with you as an individual, an olive branch would be superfluous.
If the Jesus Christ you worship is now seated next to God the Father as the only mediator between God and man, as the Bible clearly teaches, we agree on that.
(1st Timothy 2:5)
padremike wrote:
I do not wish to re-read and relive those times wh... (show quote)
Oct 1, 2019 20:40:28 #
padremike
Loc: Phenix City, Al
Zemirah wrote:
Righteous Wrath is shared by all who are capable o... (show quote)
Well I give up! You are so bloody arrogant believing you're qualified to be teacher of the faith. You are a religious and biblical bigot. We're back to your paper pope, the written misinterpreted Word without the Spirit. You are as far removed from Jude 1:3 as is a Mormon.
I would like for you to consider the Sacrament of Holy Unction. "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call the presbyters of the church and let them pray over him having anointed him with oil in the Name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him” (James 5:14-15). The same Person who forgives the sick person of their sin is the same Person who forgives sin in Confession. No one except Christ can forgive sin: no priest no pastor, only Jesus! Sacraments are an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. If you cannot recognize the grace given in something as basic as sacraments you're hidebound to your misinterpreted paper pope, your closed mind and I can't see that we worship the same Jesus. You recall that Luther did not like the Epistle of James because it conflicted with his personal theology!
Now it's your turn to respond and I graciously allow you the final word primarily because you've become boring, are grievously in error and seek your own limited and bigoted counsel. Your brand of Christianity is cold and sterile because it's limited to your understanding of the printed word of scripture. The fullness of the faith is a full blown elegant banquet and you've limited it to a hotdog roast. You're free to do exactly as you please. I understand the gift of free will that even God will not deny. I will use my free will, dust my feet and never engage in a discussion with you again.
Oct 1, 2019 22:54:56 #
Peewee
Loc: San Antonio, TX
padremike wrote:
Well I give up! You are so bloody arrogant believ... (show quote)
Maybe she just studies the scriptures more deeply than you do so one day she won't be ashamed. It is a possibility, isn't it?
Oct 2, 2019 01:32:25 #
Truly, your graciousness is unexceeded. I will reserve that "final word" until the appropriate time.
padremike wrote:
Well I give up! You are so bloody arrogant believ... (show quote)
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