Rose42

You believe you can really stop sinning altogether. Its very telling you wouldn't simply answer yes. That tells me you know in your heart that it isn't true and you're warring with the flesh which is something we are at war with but not in bondage to. Scripture doesn't back you up anywhere. You took all those verses out of context.

Romans 7:14-25 addresses it for one. We are a new creation in Christ but still at war with the flesh. Believers want to be free from the war with the flesh but won't be until we are glorified with Christ. One day we will be free from "this body of death".

You can only stop sinning if you don't recognize your sin. That's not a good place to be.

bahmer

Amen and Amen

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Continue

Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Luke 24:44–47)

This text is loaded with gospel significance given by Jesus to His disciples. He referenced His presence in the Law of Moses, presumably the Pentateuch. He claimed the Prophets testified about Him. He also showed that He could be found in the Psalms. Then Jesus collected these three areas and predicated them under one title—“the Scriptures.” Again, the gospel significance of Old Testament content is remarkable. Central to the Lord’s teaching about Himself in the Scriptures was the necessity of His suffering, His Resurrection, and His call to preach repentance for the remission of sins.

One final text illustrates the gospel theme found in the Old Testament, and it also spoke of things that took place before the Incarnation of Jesus upon this earth.

But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:18–24)

The Apostle Peter preached from Solomon’s Porch and called for the people to repent. He reminded the listening crowd that the suffering, Resurrection, and glory of the Messiah have been the major theme of the Scriptures.

The Scriptures teach that Jesus is its central theme. The primary message of the Bible is about His suffering, death, Resurrection, and glory.


So what conclusions does scripture make for us?
So were there multiple ways of salvation prior to the coming of Jesus in space and time to die as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind? The answer must be a resounding “No.” Paul explained in Romans 4 that salvation has always been and will always be by God’s grace and received through faith alone.

Genesis 3:15 promised that Someone would come to clear up the sin problem created by our first father, Adam. As the Seed of the woman, He would be the one to battle and defeat the serpent. Even Abel understood the nature of a bloody sacrifice and the death of a substitute, and because of his faith in God, he was regarded by God as righteous (Hebrews 11:4).

Thus, saturating all of Scripture, there is a gospel theme that showcases the suffering, Resurrection, and glory of the promised Savior, Jesus Christ. He is the central object of our faith and the fulfillment of all that the faithful who have preceded us down through the ages had believed in.

If we add works to salvation we destroy Gods Grace and the very core of Gods message. We are saved not because of what we have done but because of what Jesus has done.

We are not able to earn salvation by works
"We are saved by Grace, not works, lest any man boast"

To include works, one is forced to contradict Gods word interpreting the Bible themselves instead of allowing Gods word to interpret itself for us. Jack

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

You twist so much instead of letting the word guide you.

The Pharisees lived by what? The Law, right?
Can any man keep the law? Do enough good works?
Your verses you post along with your good works dogma are not considering why Jesus said and why he used the Pharisees.

To say we can keep the law calls God a liar or to say We can do enough good works also calls God a liar.

Its to say the unscriptural ....Christian's can get to a point when they no longer break the commandments and have accomplished enough good works, then is when Gods grace and faith combined salvation.

If scriptural then God has given us a bad deal. What standard of measurement did God give, that one can know they have done enough good works.

Or

If we are not perfect and sin then how many good works outweighs the sin?

Or

Are you now without sin and doing good works?

I mean using good works as a part of salvation.
I was busy all month handling family business from home, i didn't hold a door for an old lady, I didn't go to church. How many good works count?
What good works count?

How can I measure good works?
If I am a home body and only do "a" good work every 4 months when i drive to the city for food and supplies, but what if I don't do a good work and it's time to drive home for another 4 months, should I not go home until I see opportunity to do a good work? If yes, then I need to see how to measure so I'll know if Im saved and where in Gods word is that? If no, then I have met my good work allocation and where in God's word can I find that? Is there a way for me to know that I am saved? When is not enough good words enough then? How can I know if zi have done enough Good works? Since God dosen't give us a way to know, then what?

I'm going to stick with what God gave us and not have these dilemmas

Jack

Tug484

bahmer

Amen and Amen

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Rose,

To be honest, talking to you is like talking to Rumitoid (as articulated by Joe Biden): you have your version of the “t***h” and no amount of “facts” are able to dissuade you. The problem is, your version of “t***h” (false form of Christianity) does not align with the “facts” (biblical data).

I’m going to explain to you what you just did here and show, as clearly as I can, that you have exposed yourself as doing the work of the devil right before our eyes, for all to see.

First, I quoted to you several scriptures (Romans 6:1-4, 15-18, and 1 John 3:9) that make certain very clear statements, and then, I stated that I, simply, believe what those scriptures say at face value. Then, secondly, you took those same scriptures, and, because you couldn’t trick me into applying your words instead, you used what the scriptures themselves said at face value, by reiterating what they said in yoiur words, to try to accuse me of being wrong for believing those scriptures at face value! You actually proved that you see what they say but chose to negate them by your interpretations to the contrary, using no quoted scripture whatsoever.

It simply doesn’t get more devilish than that! Which I am going to demonstrate...

The method of bible interpretation you just used is exactly the method, step by step, that the devil uses by which to reinterpret the word of God and nullify the commandments of God. He started using that same method you are now using in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). He took the simple, clearly stated word of God, and said it didn’t really mean what it said at face value, and then, like you, he provided an interpretation that is never, ever stated in the Bible, but which just so happens to make the commandments of God of no effect. This is how the devil and his servants negate the word of God: by reinterpreting it away from what it says, and providing an interpretation it never says, that ultimately nullifies God’s commandments.

The devil used the same method, again, when he tempted Jesus in Matthew 4. He quoted Psalm 91:10-12, where God promised protection, even against dashing one’s foot against a stone, and from there, the devil interjected his “private interpretation,” not stated in or by the word of God, that Jesus could thereby purposely cast himself down from a pinnacle to prove his status as the Son of God... (which, by the way, was a very real temptation for Jesus (Matthew 4:1,5-7 Heb. 4:15.) In return, Jesus replied that it was written again, not to tempt the Lord (referring to Deut. 6:16). That is how Jesus reversed the authority that Adam and Eve had relinquished in the Garden: by resisting the devil’s temptation, and remaining true to God’s word.

And you want us to believe, that following in the footsteps of the devil, which is the same method you use, is the proper way to both arrive at “t***h,” and “defend” the t***h, from those who challenge your conclusions and your methods?

So, the works of the devil, are to quote God’s word, then reinterpret them in a way, not actually stated in or by the Word of God, that effectually nullifies or negates the commandments of God.

Jesus said, that those who do the works of the devil have the devil as their father:

“41You do the works of your father... 43Why don't you understand my speech? Because you can't hear my word. 44You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn't stand in the t***h, because there is no t***h in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and its father.” John 8:41, 43-44


Whose works you do expose who is your father. Jesus’ words, not mine. Jesus went on to say,

“51Most certainly, I tell you, if a person keeps my word, he will never see death.” John 8:51

According to Jesus, you can claim you are his all you want, but unless you keep his saying, you do not have eternal life.

(By the way, but not coincidentally, the devil’s method also sets the pattern for how liberals reinterpret the Constitution, and its intents and purposes: in their attempt to change the USA into a big-government “democratic socialism”, they reinterpret the Constitution according to their desires and make what it actually said of none effect. It isn’t surprising that they are bent on such evil, because this is the basis of all sin and evil, because that is what happened, what the devil did, in the Garden. It is, according to Jesus, ‘the Daddy of all lies and liars and murder’. But for you, it is supposedly the way to arrive at t***h).

If you think it’s all coincidental, you have another think coming.

Jesus said that the devil was a murderer, but in fact, he didn’t literally, physically murder anyone. So how was it that he committed murder? Very simply: by his doctrine, his teaching method, he caused Adam and Eve to not obey the commandment of God that was delivered to them.

And what about these Jews in John 8, who, by the way, like you, were noted to be believers on Jesus (John 8:31)? Well, the big problem that Jesus had with false believers in God, he expressed this way:

“7But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' 8"For you set aside the commandment of God, and hold tightly to the tradition of men... 9He said to them, "Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition... 13making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this." Mark 7:7-13.

Here again is the devil’s handiwork, step-by-step. We see the presumption of being according to God’s word, but that God’s commandments are actually negated by interpretations given by people whose traditions o*******w the commandments of God.

So now you are not only exposed for doing the work of the devil, but of the false believers in Jesus’ day also, whom Jesus himself called sons of the devil because they did the works of the devil.

Unfortunately, the biblical testimony against your works doesn’t end here.

Continued...

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Part Two to Rose,

Speaking of works, let us keep in mind what Jesus said right here:

“15"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 16By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. 18A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. 19Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.” Matthew 7:15-19

Let us not be confused, the “fruit” that the Bible describes that Christians are to be known by are their works of righteousness as opposed to the works of the flesh which are works of unrighteousness:

“19Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.” Galatians 5:19-24

Which brings us to apostle Paul who wrote the above. Who also wrote the following:

“1There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don't walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the law couldn't do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:1-4

By your own admission, you are walking after the flesh according to Paul’s definition right here, from just a couple chapters earlier:

“16Don't you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto you were delivered. 18Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness.” Romans 6:16-18

By your own admission, you are not walking after the spirit but after the flesh, because if, according to Paul, you were walking according to the Spirit, you would not fulfill the lusts of the flesh: “16Don't you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?” Romans 6:16.

And how do you counter this contradiction, stated ever so clearly and concisely, in the scriptures, by Paul himself no less? Why you resort to your father the devil’s method of Bible interpretation. You refer to Romans 7, which, in context, Paul was explaining the futility of trying to live righteous before he experienced the true salvation of Christ, and by that you try to apply Paul’s words to justify your current walk in Christ. When all you’ve done by such an admission, is prove you have not yet, yourself, entered into that salvation of Christ, which is both deliverance from the punishment of sin, and liberty from obeying sin in the flesh, which liberty you have adamantly admitted you still have not arrived at.

Paul thus testifies against you, that your false form of Christianity is in fact a religion of death:

“5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; 7because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God's law, neither indeed can it be. 8Those who are in the flesh can't please God.” Romans 5:5-8

You have admitted you live after the flesh because you cannot cease from sin which Paul says, is the way of death.

“16Don't you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?” Romans 6:16

And this is how your false form of Christianity leads you, and all those who believe like you, back to Jesus’ words that the devil was a murderer from the beginning, and he is your father: because, by lying against the word of God, he justified and taught the way of death, and that is the same method that you are using today to nullify God’s commandments and justify yourself for walking after the flesh, which, according to Paul, is the way of death. And Paul says, the reason you can’t help it is because you are not subject to the law of God, because:

to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?” Romans 6:16.

“16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh... 24Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25If we live by the Spirit, let's also walk by the Spirit.” Galatians 5:16-25

Continued in Part Three

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Part Three

Rose,

When I met my Jesus, which, incidentally, was on my knees at a Pentecostal altar, I had no idea what I was in for, I just knew, that my life, when it was in my hands, was in a bad mess. I was totally ready to “die out” to my old ways even though I didn’t have the words at that point to biblically say it: I was ready for a change, at any cost to me.

And my Jesus met me at that altar. As I knelt there in prayer, I saw him on the cross, looking me straight in the eyes, as if he was looking through my eyes and directly into my heart, and he simply said, “I died for you.” At which point I melted down in a mass of emotion (gratitude, repentance, remorse, yet knowing my rescuer had arrived and was on the scene) and so I gave my life to him. But that was only the beginning. I still needed to be born again of water and Spirit. This is something Jesus commands we all “do” that your religion negates by saying there is nothing we can “do” to play a part in our salvation:

“3Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." 4Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" 5Jesus answered, "Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.' 8The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."” John 3:3-8

If you think Jesus died for you so that you can continue to wallow in your sin, and shame, and guilt, as if you have no choice, then, my testimony to you is, you simply haven’t yet met my Jesus. And that isn’t me saying that, it is Jesus saying that:

“Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity” Matthew 7:23

Why would Jesus command us to do things he knew we couldn’t do?

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48

“Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."” John 8:11

“34Jesus answered them, "Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant {s***e} of sin. 35A bondservant doesn't live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:34-36

“20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.” Matthew 5:20

It is Also John saying it:
“One who says, "I know him," and doesn't keep his commandments, is a liar, and the t***h isn't in him.” 1 John 2:4

“3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure. 4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. 8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. 9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:3-6

It is also Paul saying it:
“Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the flesh” Gal. 5:16 & 25

“16Don't you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto you were delivered. 18Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness.” Romans 6:16-18

It is also James saying so:
“21Therefore, putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with humility the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22But be doers of the word, and not only hearers, deluding your own selves. 23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror; 24for he sees himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25But he who looks into the perfect law of freedom, and continues, not being a hearer who forgets, but a doer of the work, this man will be blessed in what he does.” James 1:21-25

Peter also says that false teachers are ones who cannot cease from sins:

“1But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies... 14having eyes full of adultery, and who can't cease from sin; enticing unsettled souls; having a heart trained in greed; children of cursing; 15forsaking the right way... 17These are wells without water, clouds driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever. 18For, uttering great swelling words of emptiness, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by licentiousness, those who are indeed escaping from those who live in error; 19promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for a man is brought into bondage by whoever overcomes him. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.” 2 Peter 2:1,14-20

But you do have works: you walk in the same works of the devil in the garden when he reinterpreted the commandment of God in order to bring death on all creation.

Jesus condemns you, not me:
“You do the deeds of your father...” John 8:41

These scriptures I’m quoting, and that I believe testify to what real Christianity looks like, you reject because they bear witness against your false, man-made “religion” that only superficially looks like true Christianity. That’s not my fault or my problem, you volunteered that information...and you’re adamant about it. I’m just here to point you to the t***h that is able to save your soul from your sins (as opposed to leaving you in your sins as you have testified of yourself).

The scripture calls what you have:
“5holding a form of godliness, but having denied its power.” 2 Timothy 3:5.

The power of walking in godliness in Christ is the power that wasn’t available when the blood of bulls and goats were the order of the day. Such sacrifices couldn’t make the comers thereunto perfect according to conscience, but Jesus’ blood does have that power:

“8The Holy Spirit is indicating this, that the way into the Holy Place wasn't yet revealed while the first tabernacle was still standing; 9which is a symbol of the present age, where gifts and sacrifices are offered that are incapable, concerning the conscience, of making the worshipper perfect... 11But Christ having come as a high priest... 12... through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption... 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Hebrews 9:9-14

“1For the law, having a shadow of the good to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near. 2Or else wouldn't they have ceased to be offered, because the worshippers, having been once cleansed, would have had no more consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a yearly reminder of sins... 12but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13from that time waiting until his enemies are made the footstool of his feet. 14For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:1-3, 12-14.

You are obviously conscious of your sins, you’ve said so, therefore, you haven’t received any sacrifice greater than that before Christ’s blood, or else you wouldn’t have any conscience of your sins because they would be in the past!

The blood of Christ is “for the perfecting of the saints as pertaining to conscience to serve the living God.” What then, are you expecting beyond the blood of Christ to cleanse and remove your sins from you once and for all? Because at the return of Jesus, it will be too late:

“10He said to me, "Don't seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11He who acts unjustly, let him act unjustly still. He who is filthy, let him be filthy still. He who is righteous, let him do righteousness still. He who is holy, let him be holy still." 12"Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” Revelation 22:10-14

So that is where folks, who do like you are doing, in teaching falsehoods, will end up: they will be judged not worthy to enter into the city, nor to eat of the tree of life. That’s called the second death, which is what I’ve been exposing, the false form of Christianity that denies it’s power and justifies people who can’t cease from sin. Following the works of the devil in his method of interpretation, like you have been shown to be doing, is what it means to love and practice falsehood. Is that really where you want to end up, outside of life? You need to repent of your religion of death, which is a false, unprofitable empty form of “Christianity”.

“You have a name that you are alive, but you are dead” Rev. 3:1

The Bible predicted the resistance to the t***h that those of your false form of Christianity would display:

“3For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; 4and will turn away their ears from the t***h, and turn aside to fables.” 2 Timothy 4:3

These scriptures I’m quoting for you are the “facts” that, like Rumi the l*****ts, you are resisting because you have your own, albeit false, version of “t***h.” You can see it in l*****ts, you can see the hypocrisy of it for those who say they are Christians, but support evil l*****ts causes, but you can’t see it when it is pointed at your own fallacy. It breaks my heart that there is a placebo Christianity that is being bought and sold as the t***h.

My testimony to you simply is, there’s more of Jesus than you have testified being exposed to. But the choice of who you want to serve will be in your hands, at least, until he comes. After that it will be too late to repent.

bahmer

You are almost as bad as Susanblange here in OPP.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

I would hope that Christian's could better communicate without the sorts of "Personal Attacks ", Rude decorum " that you are demonstrating in your thread to Rose. In the year plus time Rose has only demonstrated a kind, giving and loving heart, but when confronted rudely by some in other various topic is only direct and firm displaying a genuine Christian heart.

What heart are you displaying other than conflict in scripture?

Jack

bahmer

Amen and Amen

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Your incapable of addressing the word of God that does not contradict, so now your going after a fine Christian women with your piece mill cut and paste scriptures that contradict the Word of God, as I earlier clearly demonstrated.
You must be aware that there are many Christians with theological backgrounds viewing your threads and stand for revealing false teachings using only the word of God.
Everyone viewing your threads are able to see that your dogma contradicts scripture.
Perhaps move on , you have no defense against Gods word.

Jack

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

First, thank you for engaging me in this conversation. I don’t know if you know this or not, but some of your cohorts would condemn you for writing a response that is longer than a single post. I don’t have any such convictions. I’m happy to converse with you. I’m happy for the opportunity to address your counterpoints. For me, to say these issues can be “solved” by a fast-food-generation quick fix is to belittle the fact that so many people have come up with such divergent views.

Let’s get back to what James actually said. You say I, “use it to push a point”. I reply, no, I quote it to let the Bible make the point. The Bible is the authority, not my words or my interpretations. To the best of my ability, I use my words to “point to” what the Bible says, not to “reinterpret for you” what the Bible says. From my view, you folks on the “faith-only” path, feel that your interpretations are important enough to change what is actually stated.

The first problem with your “interpretation” of James is that it ignores the key words he used. One in particular is the word synergy (sunergo) in the Greek:

“21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought ("sunergo –1, to work together, help in work, be partner in labour 2, to put forth power together with and thereby to assist") with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness... 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only… 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. -James 2:21-26.

Notice that James clearly tied faith and works together with the word sunergo, which, as is defined above, imparts a clear and specific sense of partnership, rather than result. Sunergo is the root of our English word synergism, which literally means "like-energy." The Dictionary meaning of synergy, in harmony with the definition of sunergo above, says it is, "The action of two or more substances, organs, or organisms to achieve an effect of which each is individually incapable."

James said faith without works was dead, in other words, because of synergy, faith, being one of the elements, would be “individually incapable” of displaying saving faith. In the clearest of terms, James was denying that we display works as a result of already inherent faith. In other words, your conclusion is based on a falsehood. James was explicitly not talking of produced results, but of a partnership of faith and works that together produced the result of justification.

Synergy, by definition, requires the individual parts to first exist together before you can have what those parts together produce. For example, water is a synergy of 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen. Clearly, these two elements working in synergy together produce something greater than they could alone produce: water. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy)


In the biblical equation given by James, salvation is a synergy of faith (ie, like the 2 parts hydrogen in our example) and works (ie the 1 part oxygen). Thus, “salvation” as explained by James, in God’s word, works just like the water that is produced by the right combination of the two necessary elements of hydrogen and oxygen.

To use the elements of this analogy, you are claiming that James is saying the hydrogen “alone” is the “water” that “produces” the 1 part oxygen! Think how messed up that is.

So not only are you negating the words James used (like synergy) you are also reconfiguring the structure of his sentences. Do you really want to suggest that you know better than James? Am I an evil heretic for wanting to keep James’ words intact?




Now, again, notice carefully this verse-

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” -James 2:26

Notice here that in James' analogy the "dead body" alone stood for "faith," but the life-giving spirit is the analogy for the works, without which the body was dead- and not the other way around! If James were writing to contend for the position of the “workless” Evangelicals, he should have written it the other way, but he didn’t. James said, “body=faith” and “spirit (or life)=works”. It isn’t faith that gives life. It is works that give life to faith, synergistically producing salvation. Therefore James says, ever so clearly, that without those works, faith would just be a dead body; not “nothing”, but just a dead body.

By disbelieving James, you have twisted his words to mean something opposite of what he said.

Do you like it when people do that with your words?

Continued in Part Two

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Part Two


Jack, this response makes me feel how President Trump must have felt about the “Russian Collusion” inquiry. It is said that they had the exculpatory evidence that would have exonerated Trump, but they buried it, or at least tried to. And thus you are doing with the story of Abraham.

I quite agree with you that Romans 4 is a good passage that must be consulted in this discussion. But I see that you missed something. And that is the exculpatory evidence that you, unwittingly or not, are trying to hide: verse 12, which, for some curious reason, you omitted from your quote:

“12He {Abraham} is the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had in uncircumcision.

So, in your retelling, something should have befallen Abraham completely by grace in Genesis chapter 15. But that is NOT where the telling of the faith of Abraham began. It began in Genesis 12:

“1Now Yahweh said to Abram, "Get out of your country, and from your relatives, and from your father's house, to the land that I will show you. 2I will make of you a great nation. I will bless you and make your name great. You will be a blessing.” Genesis 12:1-2

Now, according to your retelling of the story, these would have been works of “legalism”, but the Bible says they were steps of “faith”:

“8By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out to the place which he was to receive for an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he went.
9 By faith, he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a land not his own...” Hebrews 11:8-9

So, Abraham had at least a couple of “must do’s” before his faith was counted for righteousness. But you ignored those. Why?

But there was one more work that he did: he sacrificed animals. Even with Abraham, whose faith was the very foundation of Paul’s explanation of faith, he had to sacrifice animals, which was another “must do”. In this case, Abraham had to sacrifice if he wanted to “know” that he would inherit, and immediately after this, God made a covenant with him that same day.

Now, Evangelicals love to quote Ephesians 2, and its an awesome chapter when read in the context of the Old Testament characters Paul uses for his foundation. The problem with Evangelicals is that they don’t read it with the walks, works and steps of the father of faith, Abraham, in mind.

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world… Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past... But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus... For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” -Ephesians 2:1-10

Let’s compare how this passage would apply to father Abraham- he was walking "according to the course of this world" {living in the house of his father} then God graciously began talking with him (in Gen. 12), and in so doing gave Abraham two commandments which were "good works" which God ordained that Abraham should walk in. They weren't "Abraham's works" that he should boast, he didn’t make them up, and they weren’t inherent to his person, but they were works; works of faith. We quoted scripture above that clearly said this- "by faith Abraham… obeyed… by faith Abraham sojourned…" (Hebrews 11:8-9, KJV). So, contrary to how an Evangelical would interpret Ephesians 2, these works of Abraham weren't "works salvation" because they weren't Abraham's works, they were Abraham becoming the workmanship of God which he was created for, and they were works he did before his faith was counted for righteousness.

It was these very works of obedient faith and this very person- Abraham, of which the Bible is specifically saying sets the pattern for salvation by grace through faith!

It would be unreasonable to say that in Genesis Abraham had done nothing to deserve having his faith counted for righteousness, because there would not have been a Genesis 15 for Abraham if he had not walked the steps that God had commanded him in Genesis 12, 13 and 14!

It is those very steps of faithful obedience which frame the context for Paul's reasoning, both in Ephesians 2, above, and in Romans 4:3 that "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness…". He then tells us, in Romans 4:12, that Abraham is not the father of the circumcision only, but also is a father to them "…who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised".

Why do you omit this fact?

Therefore, to affirm or assume that Paul was talking about faith without works period would totally contradict what Paul specifically said that we must do in order to be children of the faith of Abraham. Namely Paul says Abrahamic faith is to "…walk in the steps of that faith of… Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. -Romans 4:12.

This Jesus Himself also affirmed-
"…Jesus saith… Abraham's children… do the works of Abraham." -John 8:39.

So, you are contradicting Jesus himself by ignoring and omitting Abraham’s works and steps of faith before his faith was counted for righteousness!

And not only that, but even John the Baptist chimed in by telling the Jews, in Matthew 3:9, that being a child of Abrahamic faith didn’t mean resting on what Abraham had obtained, but in following in Abraham’s example (which we are told to follow Jesus’ example in his death burial and resurrection through repentance, baptism and receiving the promised gift of the Holy Spirit, in Acts 2:38)

Remember, that same Abraham is also the setting for the context that the "believing" Jews, in John 8:31, referred to in defending their position that they were not in bondage because Abraham was their father and they were Abraham's unconditionally promised seed. By attempting to claim people are saved by faith without any works period, you have taken up the same, groundless, unbiblical position as the Pharisaical Jews tried to use against John the Baptist and Jesus, that they were already saved by faith without, or regardless of, their works!

The point, God's intention, stated by John and Jesus through what they told the Pharisees, and what Paul said in Romans 4:12, is that Abrahamic faith doesn’t mean simply and only resting on the promise that Abraham received from God. Instead their consistent, unanimous message was to do the works and walk in the steps (plural) that Abraham did to get a promise like Abraham got for themselves!

Continued in Part Three