Rose42

Hi Jack,

I think so too but I don't really follow his posts. I thought the first sentence was a bit odd though so that's why I asked.

I hope you're doing well!

Ricktloml

Isn't that what repentance is for? When a Christian falls short and sins? Repent, be forgiven and do better.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Exactly.

I was more addressing what Jesus did on the cross believers vs non believers. I believe the word is clear in our inability to become perfect and without sin. Our perfection is through the blood on the cross and in faith. Thus we are saved sinners vs unsaved sinners.

Ricktloml

The Bible says none is perfect save our Lord and Savior. That is why repentance is so important. And repentance is more than regret, it acknowledges the sin committed and requires the effort to not repeat that sin. God is a loving Father and upon repentance forgiveness is always available

Divine truth

No they don't do better, when they repeat, they do worse things, then what they did, before the process of repentance took place.

To most repentance is committing more sin, and EVIL acts, its just a word (repentance) not a action or reality.

Ricktloml

[quote=Divine t***h]No they don't do better, when they repeat, they do worse things, then what they did, before the process of repentance took place.

To most repentance is committing more sin, and EVIL acts, its just a word (repentance) not a action or real


Then they didn't truly repent. Part of repentance IS doing better.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

You are the one mincing words Jack, it is written:

"19You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder. 20But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?" James 2:19-20

That's pretty clear, yet people like you dismiss it...because they believe only as much as devil's do, belief without the works that God has ordained that we are to walk in (Ephesians 2:10).

It is also written: "So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17

Let me ask you, Jack, would you tell Cain he only had to have faith? His brother Able also believed in God...but didn't believe God. Did Able reject God? Did Able's belief alone save him? Did it take a theologian to explain to Cain that only blood was fit for a sin sacrifice?

The Bible says that by faith Noah built an ark, to the saving of his house. Would he and his family have been saved if you told him he only needed to believe and he decided by your definition he didn't really need to build the ark to God's specifications because he had faith and God would accept that as enough?

Adam and Eve believed "in God", but they didn't "believe God", and so they let a so-called "theologian" explain to them what "God really meant" thereby negating God’s commandment to them. How’d that work out?

The point is, we learn what faith means from the Bible, not our own subjective opinions, or those of theologians who make the commandments of God of none effect. And the Bible, particularly in Hebrews 11, shows that faith is only effectual when it is in synergy with doing what God has commanded for salvation in the context of each saint's time frame.

It is written:

22But *be doers* of the word, and not only hearers, deluding your own selves. 23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror; 24for he sees himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25But he who looks into the perfect law of freedom, and continues, not being a hearer who forgets, but a doer of the work, this man will be blessed in what he does.” James 1:22-25

What the Bible is saying is simply this: People who say they are Christians but who aren’t “doers of the word” forget that the Bible showed them the evil they were into, so they superficially repent, and tell themselves they will change. But then they go out into the world and start acting the same as they were before they looked into the scriptures, before God showed them the outcome of their sins. You aren’t doing anyone any favors by telling them that doing or not doing doesn’t effect their salvation.

Jesus said,

"5...Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.' 8The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:5-8

Jesus himself said “you must”. Therefore, Jesus himself was against the “faith alone” lie.

When you tell people only faith is required, and change or negate what Jesus said is required, then you are calling Jesus a liar, just like the Servant called God a liar, indirectly, by saying to Eve she wouldn't really die, but her eyes would be opened. It was a lie because it was a half t***h...just like you are saying, by not telling the whole t***h.

Just like God laid out the very clear, simple commandment to not eat of the tree in Genesis 3:3, so Peter, using the keys to the kingdom of God that Jesus gave him, laid out the commandment of God for our age and time frame:

"38and Peter said unto them, ‘Repent {something we must do}, and be baptized {something else we must do} each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit {something God does by giving us something of substance and definition}, 39for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.’ 40Also with many more other words he was testifying and exhorting, saying, ‘Be saved from this perverse generation;’" Acts 2:38-40 (Young's Literal T***slation)

But he didn't tell them this until he had told them what to believe:

"22‘Men, Israelites! hear these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man approved of God among you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs, that God did through him in the midst of you, according as also ye yourselves have known; 23this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified — ye did slay; 24whom God did raise up...
29‘Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day; 30a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne, 31having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32‘This Jesus did God raise up..
"36assuredly, therefore, let all the house of Israel know, that both Lord and Christ did God make him — this Jesus whom ye did crucify.’.. Acts 2:22-36

To take away or add to what was preached by Peter and the other apostles in the book of Acts for salvation is to teach people to believe in God, to the same extent devils believe, which is a dead faith, because it is saying not to "believe God" enough to submit to what He commands of us to do in faithful response, which is:

"5...unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew." John 3:5-7

If someone claims to be born again, who chooses subjectively how to be born anew, but it doesn't match what Jesus and the apostles taught and exemplified, they haven't been born from above, they have merely been born of the flesh or of the will of man.

"12but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name, 13who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten." John 1:12-13

"44While Peter is yet speaking these sayings, the Holy spirit fell upon all those hearing the word, 45and those of the circumcision believing were astonished — as many as came with Peter — because also upon the nations the gift of the Holy Spirit hath been poured out, 46for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and magnifying God. 47Then answered Peter, ‘The water is any one able to forbid, that these may not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit did receive — even as also we?’ 48he commanded them also to be baptized in the name of the Lord...Acts 10:44-48

And what was it these Italians believed? The same thing Peter preached in chapter 2:

"37...the word that came throughout all Judea, having begun from Galilee, after the baptism that John preached; 38Jesus who [is] from Nazareth — how God did anoint him with the Holy Spirit and power; who went through, doing good, and healing all those oppressed by the devil, because God was with him; 39and we — we are witnesses of all things that he did, both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem, — whom they did slay, having hanged upon a tree. 40‘This one God did raise up the third day, and gave him to become manifest, 41not to all the people, but to witnesses, to those having been chosen before by God — to us who did eat with [him], and did drink with him, after his rising out of the dead; 42and he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify fully that it is he who hath been ordained by God judge of living and dead — 43to this one do all the prophets testify, that through his name every one that is believing in him doth receive remission of sins.’" Acts 10:37-43

This is what Peter said when he was asked to tell them all things that God commanded (Acts 10:36).

"44While Peter is yet speaking these sayings, the Holy spirit fell upon all those hearing the word, 45and those of the circumcision believing were astonished — as many as came with Peter — because also upon the nations the gift of the Holy Spirit hath been poured out, 46for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and magnifying God. 47Then answered Peter, ‘The water is any one able to forbid, that these may not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit did receive — even as also we?’ 48he commanded them also to be baptized in the name of the Lord; then they besought him to remain certain days." Acts 10:44-48

You need to ask yourself why your "salvation plan" is so incompatibly different than that which the apostles actually preached for salvation.

I'll tell you why you don't:

"The Lord said, "Because this people draws near with their mouth and with their lips to honor me, but they have removed their heart far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which has been taught;" Isaiah 29:13

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

Do you have a problem with the scriptures?


"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life." Romans 6:1-4


"15What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? May it never be! 16Don't you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto you were delivered. 18Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness." Romans 6:15-18

"every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten." 1 John 3:9

Tell me Rose, if you have been freed from sin why do you still obey sin by yielding yourself to it?

"promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for a man is brought into bondage by whoever overcomes him." 2 Peter 2:19

So, the false teachers promise liberty (i.e. Freedom from sin) but they are still s***es to sin.

It sounds to me like you are the one who has some explaining to do. Why don't you believe the scriptures?
What scripture says that after you've been saved from sin you will still be a s***e to committing sin?

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

What is it you think "legalistic" means?

Jesus said the Pharisees worshipped in vain because they negated the commandments of God to keep their man-made traditions:

"1Then the Pharisees, and some of the scribes gathered together to him, having come from Jerusalem. 2Now when they saw some of his disciples eating bread with defiled, that is, unwashed, hands, they found fault. 3(For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, don't eat unless they wash their hands and forearms, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4They don't eat when they come from the marketplace, unless they bathe themselves, and there are many other things, which they have received to hold to: washings of cups, pitchers, bronze vessels, and couches.) 5The Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why don't your disciples walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with unwashed hands?"

6He answered them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'

8"For you set aside the commandment of God, and hold tightly to the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things."

9He said to them, "Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother;' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, "Wh**ever profit you might have received from me is Corban, that is to say, given to God;"' 12then you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother, 13making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this." Mark 71-13

It isn't keeping the commandments of God that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for, it was not keeping them by imposing their own traditions that negated God's commandments that he condemned them for.

That is what you "faith-only" folks do- lay aside the New Testament commandments in order to hold your new traditions that were never held by the apostles or the early Christians!

That makes you a modern day Pharisee, Jack.

Rose42

I asked a simple question. Do you believe once you’re saved you can stop sinning altogether? Yes or no.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

I believe what the Bible says. I know that is difficult for you because you don't.

But I didn't write the Bible and whether I or you believe or not doesn't change what the apostles of MY lord said.

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?" Luke 6:46

"34Jesus answered them, "Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35A bondservant doesn't live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:34-36

"42Therefore Jesus said to them, "If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven't come of myself, but he sent me. 43Why don't you understand my speech? Because you can't hear my word. 44You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn't stand in the t***h, because there is no t***h in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and its father. 45But because I tell the t***h, you don't believe me. 46Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the t***h, why do you not believe me? 47He who is of God hears the words of God. For this cause you don't hear, because you are not of God." John 8:42-47

Rose42

You might believe, I don't know your heart, but you can't and/or won't answer a very simple yes or no question. Why is that? You are avoiding answering.

It looks like you are trying to say one can stop sinning which is not biblical. Just spit out the answer. I can - no.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

What Scripture says this?

Jesus didn’t say it.

Paul didn’t say it.

James didn’t say it.

John didn’t say it.

They all say the opposite.

Rose says it. Are your words on par with Scripture? Maybe in your mind.

I already answered you, and you don’t believe.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Anyone can pull a few scriptures or group of scriptures together to press a dogma.
The problem is this, Gods word never "never" contradicts itself.

"Faith without works is dead" is a verse you quote to push a point.
So , you're saying one must have works to be saved ( a very catholic belief) or is this verse saying something different? Because if one holds to salvation attached to work's then the dilemma of biblical contradiction unfolds.
Could it be that the author was trying to convey evidence of salvation? When someone truly believes and indwelling of the Holy Spirt then we see them doing good works? We hear them profess their faith and also see evidence, not just talk.

But lets remove you and me from interpreting the bible because i believe since scripture does not contradict itself, it also interprets itself.

Here we go

The Apostle Paul dealt with an issue in Romans 4 that helps us answer this important question. He used the Old Testament to show salvation has always been by God’s grace and can only be received through faith. While addressing those who thought they could save themselves by adhering to the Law of Moses, Paul made a brilliant argument.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness . . . . Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. . . . Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (Romans 4:1–5, 9–10, 16)

To demonstrate his point that salvation comes through faith instead of works, Paul referred to Abraham, the forefather of the Jewish people. He cited Genesis 15:6, which reveals that Abram (Abraham) “believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.” Circumcision was not introduced to Abraham and his descendants until Genesis 17—more than 10 years later.

Lets also let the Old Testament interpret the word for us.

The Old Testament sets forth a gospel theme that people were saved from sin by grace through saving faith in the Lord and His promises.

Several texts from the New Testament illustrate this premise.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. (1 Peter 1:10–12, emphasis added)

This text reveals some important ideas. The “prophets . . . who prophesied” longed for the arrival of an era of grace. The “Spirit of Christ” within them was filling them with this great desire, witnessing through them and to them in advance of the work of Christ.

How about this.........

A CHRIST-LED, SPIRIT-GIVEN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS GOSPEL THEME WAS THE CORE OF THE PROPHETIC MESSAGE.

The prophetic message was often a gospel message since it told of the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. The Spirit of Christ witnessed in advance about the sufferings and glories of Christ. The text indicates the prophets studied their own utterances and writings to plumb their depths. Yet according to this text, a Christ-led, Spirit-given understanding of this gospel theme was the core of the prophetic message.

The New Testament serves as the inspired commentary on the Old Testament, and it is an incredible blessing to have this in our hands. However, even before the completion of the New Testament, the Old Testament served as the Scripture for Israel, and it contained a gospel theme concerning the coming, sufferings, and glory of Messiah.

The second text underscoring the gospel theme of the Old Testament was spoken by Jesus Himself.

Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luke 24:25–27)

Here, Jesus spoke to a pair of His followers on the road to Emmaus. Notice the extent of His teaching. He began with Moses and the Prophets and opened to them in all the Scriptures the things pertaining to Himself, that is, His sufferings and His glory.

Later in the same chapter, Jesus spoke of His presence in the Old Testament .

To b continued

bahmer

Amen and Amen