Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

I find it ironic that you would provide an article supporting John MacArthur’s heresy written by Phil Johnson, the executive director for MacArthur's tape, radio, and web ministry, Grace to You. Johnson has been closely associated with John MacArthur since 1981 and edits most of MacArthur's major books. He is also an elder at Grace Community Church in Panorama City, CA, (MacArthur's church) as well as teaching courses in writing and editing at The Master's College and Seminary (founded by MacArthur).

I stand by what I said.

Why don't you ask the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth by reading His Holy Word and helping you to discern what it means. This is the only way you'll be able to tell truth from lies or truth mixed with lies.

But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ. 1 John 2:27 (NLT)

Rose42

I purposely used that article because it gives a sound biblical explanation and I know who Phil Johnson is.

People - including Christians - deceive themselves. Not only did I hear the exchange I heard the over the top reaction to it.

And I stand by what I said. He is not a heretic.

Are you being led by the spirit on this? It doesn’t look like it. For if he were really a heretic that would manifest itself in other ways. It would not be in just one area. Many professed Christians don’t like MacArthur because he is outspoken about false converts.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

I'm being led by the Spirit (capital S) ALWAYS!

Phil Johnson's "sound" biblical "truth" is a twist of Scripture used to fit his narrative. He is playing a game of semantics with people’s souls.

Concerning the mark of the beast, it can’t be any plainer than Revelation 14: 9-11.

And you haven't done your research very well.

https://youtu.be/mASEKxwvdA0
https://youtu.be/UgaKfjZuRUM
https://youtu.be/fZYSeVWtKPs

There are others.

Rose42

Aren’t we all? Yet we still differ in opinion.



Yes I have. I don’t play games with Scripture and I don’t cherry pick verses without looking for other verses to back it up or explain it.

And you are forgetting that in verse 9 it specifies worshipping the beast and his image AND taking the mark. One can wrongly take the mark without worshipping the beast and then repent of it.

Its no accident that the two are tied together. If God had meant simply taking the mark he would have said so.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Calvinism is a system of false doctrine that is taught in many evangelical denominations.

None of the 5 point of T.U.L.I.P. are taught in the Bible.

The Calvinist T. U. L. I. P. is refuted by Scripture. I've posted several similar conclusions to this on OPP in recent years.

I was more interested in your unwillingness to interface with (albeit too late in his physical life to reverse his course) Mr. Calvin, to ascertain why he misunderstood and so mis-taught Scripture as he did.

I have several of John MacArthur's published works in my home library, have studied them carefully, and find no basic fault in them.

Much that is attributed to Calvin's man made philosophy totally ignores many clearly spoken Scriptures, perverts many others, and misuses still others. Long before John Calvin lived, these erroneous teachings were presented much earlier by Augustine of Hippo in the 4th - 5th centuries. Here are Scriptures soundly refuting the errors of the Calvinist TULIP (undoubtedly similar to your own):

T = Total Inability (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose the Truth, whereas; The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, to choose, and to receive Spiritual Truth.):


Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and Receive with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Isaiah 1:18: "Come now, and let us Reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore Choose Life, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, Choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have Chosen The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

John 1:12: "But as many as Received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have Committed unto him against that day."


U = Unconditional Election (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith.):

1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."


L = Limited Atonement (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind. The reason not all are saved is because they failed to repent and receive the Saviour, not because He didn't provide for their salvation.):

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for Every man."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."


I = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE (Calvinism teaches that God's grace for salvation cannot be resisted, but the Word of God says it can be resisted):

Lamentations 3:35-36: "To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not."

Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

John 5:39-40: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

Acts 7:51: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Proverbs 1:24-26: "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Proverbs 29:1: "He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."


P = Perseverance (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):

Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..."

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. "

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."

Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's "TULIP." The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but arbitrarily. This strikes at the love and justice of God, contradicts the fact that Christ gave his life for All, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator.

Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment."

Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him."

John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

You are free to believe what you want but I’ll sternly warn you to be VERY careful if you support and teach a doctrine that says someone can take the mark of the beast and repent when VERY clearly it states in the Bible that is NOT the case.

Rose42

You are ignoring a critical part of the verse. I find that curious.

I’m not a teacher and I know in my heart MacArthur is not a heretic. I don’t ‘think’ it, I ‘know’ it. I’ll also sternly warn you that there is no Christian on this earth that has a totally accurate view of the bible. That doesn’t mean one isn’t saved if they have a different view of different doctrine. All agree on what it means to be saved and the doctrine of salvation and justification.

In your view everyone would be a heretic if they didn’t align with your opinion. And it is your opinion. That is not of the Spirit.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

The demons 'know' Jesus is Lord...and they tremble.

And the only problem with this doctrine is that it's a salvation issue.

Rose42

You’re comparing me to a demon? And you persist in ignoring the whole verse and its specific wording. Why?

Thats what some argue about baptism too - that its necessary for salvation. And they are as dead sure as you are.

Part of the verse is a salvation issue if one doesn’t repent. Revelation also says “but for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” Rev 21:8. No mention of a chance to repent. Yet we know if we repent of those things we are forgiven.

I see no difference with the mark and true repentance. There is nothing in those verses to indicate otherwise.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

May I respectfully ask how someone may “wrongly” take the mark? You seem to conveniently forget that Revelation 13:17a says “that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark.” Some people will be under extreme pressure and others will think it is no big deal to take the mark. Either way, it will be a conscious choice to take it or not take it. And there will be no excuse. The ones who take the mark are “of this world” and do not KNOW God.

John 15:18-21 (NASB)
[Jesus said:] “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.”

Revelation 14:9 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships <G4352> the beast and his image, and <G2532> receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand.”

Considering the words, “worship” and “and,” why don’t you look up the meanings in a good concordance.

Greek NASB Number: 4352
Greek Word: προσκυνέω
Transliterated Word: proskuneô
Root: from 4314 and pôros kuneô (to kiss);
Definition: to do reverence to (or pledge allegiance to)

Greek NASB Number: 2532
Greek Word: καί
Transliterated Word: kai
Root: a prim. conjunc.;
Definition: and, even (at the very time)

In other words, one will pledge allegiance to the beast, and at the very time will receive the mark. Once that happens, their fate is sealed.

Revelation 14:10-11 (NASB)
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rose42

I forget nothing. The murderers, idol worshipper, liars, etc are also of this world. Sinning is a conscious choice.

[quote]
John 15:18-21 (NASB)
[Jesus said:] “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.”



Revelation 14:9 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships <G4352> the beast and his image, and <G2532> receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand.”



I did.



It might be. One needn’t worship the beast to get the mark. I am not saying one can think they can ask for forgiveness later. A Christian can’t do it. For one who has never been told the gospel that is different. Some will be redeemed out of the Great Tribulation. The gospel will continue to be preached and a great multitude will be redeemed during the Great Tribulation after the mark is in use. Rev 7:9-14.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

Ones who refused to take the mark. I repeat, once you take the mark it is finito. No turning back.

Rose42

We don’t know if they all will or not.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

It doesn't matter! They've sealed their fate by taking the mark!

Revelation 14:9-11
Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone (not someone, not a few but ANYONE) who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand must (not maybe, not could be but MUST) drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped (or pledged allegiance to) the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in that passage about repentance.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Rose and Parky...

Great dialogue...

I truly enjoyed it...

I am not a huge fan of MacArthur, but I do think he is a good and decent man... And his knowledge of scripture is most excellent...

I find myself pondering the information you have both given... What an interesting conundrum... Thanks