Rose42

I'd be interested in a few of them.

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

If I could sit next to CS Lewis and listen to his thoughts and concerns for a while, it would be great!!

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

At a quick glance, I wouldn't want to sit at any of them because there is at least one unbeliever or apostate at every one of them.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

3

Rose42

I think thats the point. I would find them all interesting. Tough choice.

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

Sometimes you can strengthen your beliefs by listening to the bile from an unbeliever, but those who honestly believe there is no God can help us understand and strengthen our believe in God.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

I do not associate with people who willfully mislead the flock.

Rose42

I look at it this way, its never too late for one to repent. I have hope for everyone and remember the thief on the cross.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

If allowed the give and take of a "Round Robin" tournament, with questioning of the selected participants, I'd choose, whether approving or opposing their selective theology, at least four tables:

Martin Luther

John Calvin

Charles Spurgeon

John MacArthur

I'd like the option of reading a volume of Christian History, rather than participate at the remaining tables.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

Why would you choose John Calvin or John MacArthur? They're both heretics.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Your opinion, noteworthy though it may be, is not the end of the conversation. Everyone posting on OPP is equally entitled to form their own opinion of these men/women.

Why would you so label them without listing one verse of Scripture to substantiate your accusation?

All four of those I listed have been chosen as spiritual Christian leaders by thousands if not millions of the world's followers of Jesus Christ.

They have impacted either historical or contemporary Christianity, to greater or lesser degrees, in the manner in which it is perceived and taught today.

We each, after serious study, form our opinions of historical Christian figures, to our own satisfaction.

Nothing provides greater understanding of another human being, i.e., their honesty, their sincerity, their depth of personal perception, than does one-on-one conversation.

Most importantly, IMO, is the affirmation personal conversation with them would provide either of us, whether we agree or disagree with these individuals.

I would ask them how they formed their beliefs on the meaning of Scriptures, and by whom, other than God's Word, they were influenced to so believe.

If your own opinion and beliefs disagree with their own, you are thus, better equipped to refute them, to the best of your ability.

Rose42

Why do you think John MacArthur is a heretic?

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

You want me to substantiate my accusations? So be it…

The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the saints. In the interest of time and space, I’ll just address unconditional election.

Unconditional election is a phrase that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the predestination—or the election—of people for salvation. It is my understanding that in Calvin’s view, before the world began, God predestined some for eternal salvation (the Elect) while the others would suffer everlasting damnation (the Reprobates) regardless. The chosen few were saved by the operation of divine grace which cannot be challenged or be earned by Man’s merits. Conversely, you might lead a perfectly good life that was true to God but if you were a reprobate you remained one because for all your qualities you were inherently corrupt and God would know this even if you did not.

IMHO, these beliefs are in direct contradiction to the Bible which I will attempt to point out from a recent bible study of ours on Romans 8:28-30. This is the conclusion but if you want the scriptures, etc., I’ll be more than glad to provide them:

• Based on what we’ve just studied, I believe that the bottom line of the whole matter is this.
• Jesus died for the sins of the entire human race.
• His gift of salvation is freely offered to all men everywhere.
• In Isaiah 46 God declares the end from the beginning.
• And from ancient times things which have not been done.
• He says that His purpose will be established.
• And He will accomplish all His good pleasure.
• So, God knows the end from the beginning.
• Therefore, He knew before time who would and would not accept Jesus’ free gift of salvation.
• However, that does not preclude every man from being called or invited by the Spirit of God to salvation.
• And when God invites someone to salvation.
• He moves in their life in such a way that they are left with only two choices (free will).
o They can accept the free gift of salvation through Christ.
o They can reject the free gift of salvation through Christ.
• Therefore, God is absolutely Sovereign in the matter of salvation.
• Just as He is in every other matter of life!
• And Man’s free will is not violated.
• Just as it’s not in every other matter of life!
• God works in our lives to bring us to the place where we will surrender to or reject His will for our lives.
• Salvation is for all men.
• But no man can be saved apart from the call of the Spirit of God.
• Here is where we must put this matter to rest.
• Let it be stated that no one can be saved apart from the invitation of God.
• Let is also be said that God has chosen out no one specifically for condemnation.
• John 1:9 says, “There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.”
• But the elect are the ones who respond to that light.
• They respond to this invitation and are saved according to God's eternal purpose.
• The whole point of these verses is this: In Jesus, we are absolutely secure!
• Why?
• Notice:
o Verse 28 tells us that God is working out His purpose in us.
 What is that purpose?
 He is making us in the image of Jesus.
 Why do all that work and then throw us away?
o Verse 29 tells us that God has already decided that we will be like Jesus someday.
 It is a done deal!
o Verse 30 uses several words to speak of our journey.
 And, every one of them is in the "aorist tense” in the Greek and this tense is roughly equivalent to our past tense. Notice:
• We were predestinated – Past tense.
• We were called or invited – Past tense
• And some were justified (Declared righteous!) – Past tense.
• And those were glorified – Past tense
o In the mind of God:
 We are already with Him in Heaven (Eph. 2:6)
 We are already sinless
 We are already glorified.
o We are as good for Heaven as if we were already there!

Calvin’s beliefs are in direct contradiction of this teaching!

Now about John MacArthur…I’ll be more succinct…

John MacArthur was asked if someone can take the Mark and still repent or be saved later? His short answer? YES! THAT is heresy!

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The third angel angel warns that any who agree to beast-worship in any of its forms will suffer God's wrath now and eternally. The wine of His wrath will be poured out on the earth during the Great Tribulation. But that will be only a foretaste of the pangs of eternal damnation, where unbelievers shall be tormented with fire and brimstone. This passage reminds us that lake of fire consists of eternal and conscious punishment. The smoke of their torment will ascend perpetually, and there will be no relief day or night.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

John MacArthur was asked if someone can take the Mark and still repent or be saved later? His short answer? YES! THAT is heresy!

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The third angel angel warns that any who agree to beast-worship in any of its forms will suffer God's wrath now and eternally. The wine of His wrath will be poured out on the earth during the Great Tribulation. But that will be only a foretaste of the pangs of eternal damnation, where unbelievers shall be tormented with fire and brimstone. This passage reminds us that lake of fire consists of eternal and conscious punishment. The smoke of their torment will ascend perpetually, and there will be no relief day or night.

Rose42

He's no heretic. I heard that exchange and people really misrepresented it.

Unforgivable?

Several years ago in a live Q&A session, someone asked John MacArthur if taking the mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation would be an unpardonable sin. His answer, in short, was no. Though there is a stern warning against taking the mark of the Beast in Revelation 14, the sin is not categorically said to be unpardonable. (That would contradict Matthew 12:31.) The point of the severe language in Revelation 14 is to make clear what an utterly reprehensible sin it will be to swear an oath of willful loyalty to Antichrist.

Someone posted John MacArthur’s reply to that question on YouTube with a melodramatic one-word title in all caps: “OUTRAGE.” Gossip-mongers on the Internet got hold of it, apparently, and within days someone wrote to our ministry saying, “I saw pastor John on a YouTube video saying the way to be saved in the Tribulation is to take the mark of the Beast.”

Well—no.

If someone listens to Pastor MacArthur’s reply and imagines he was saying it’s no great sin to receive the mark of the Beast, listen again; that grossly twists what he actually said. The question is not (as one writer suggests) “How Far Can You Go and Still Be Able to Repent?” The point John MacArthur was making is about the extremes to which God’s grace will reach in order to seek and save a sinner.

Yes, Revelation 14:9–11 says, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Clearly, receiving the mark is a sin that will send those who commit it to hell.

But the Bible also says, “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9–10). In short, all sin carries the threat of eternal doom, and some particularly heinous sins have a built-in hardening effect that makes them particularly dangerous. Scripture occasionally singles out common sins that have this peculiarly soul-destroying effect.

On the other hand, only one very specific sin is ever said to be unforgivable. Any sin that is repented of is forgivable. Immediately after declaring all fornicators, drunkards, and swindlers unfit for heaven, the apostle writes, “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11). After saying, “Whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven,” Jesus famously forgave Peter, who denied Him before men.

Jesus Himself said, “Any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven ” (Matthew 12:31, emphasis added). The one unpardonable sin was the sin of those who had seen His miracles with their own eyes; they knew He was the true Messiah; they were part of the generation to whom He was personally sent. And yet they attributed His powers to Satan. That was unforgivable because it was such a hard-hearted, willful expression of utter rejection from fully enlightened hearts, who punctuated their rejection with an extreme blasphemy. Those Pharisees had stood in the presence of the living embodiment of all truth; they heard His words and saw His works. All the mysteries of Christ had been unveiled before their very eyes. And yet they spurned Him. There was nothing else that could be shown to them to enlighten them further. They were not deceived; they knew full well what they were doing. That’s why their sin was unpardonable (cf. 1 Timothy 1:13).

Revelation 19:20 indicates that multitudes will take the mark of the Beast because they are deceived. Scripture does not say that they are thereby automatically hardened forever against repentance. That is not the point of the strong warnings.

This whole issue suddenly became a matter of intense controversy when it was mentioned on a provocative radio program. It’s certainly not worth all the ink that has been wasted and all the bandwidth that has been consumed by angry people demanding explanations and retractions. This much should certainly be clear from the biblical text (and I think would be affirmed by all sides): Taking the mark of the Beast is high treason against Christ and will be judged by God accordingly. Meanwhile, the Lord is “good, and ready to forgive, and abundant in lovingkindness to all who call upon [Him]” (Psalm 86:5).

https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B131030