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At what point are we "beings?"
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May 23, 2019 13:11:50   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Rose42 wrote:
We will find out one day.


Or maybe not!

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May 23, 2019 14:25:09   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
maximus wrote:
Projecting? The verse is plainly speaking about the Jews who were guilty of having false god statues in high places throughout the land. Christians may have statues or paintings to remind them of the Savior, but these are NOT to be prayed to or whorshiped. Jehovah's Witnesses are so screwed up with their "interpretation" of Revelation that it's funny. Myself, I AM a witness to the power of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Ummm... every church I've ever been in worshiped and prayed to the symbols that were displayed at the altar. Just my opinion ...

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May 23, 2019 14:33:54   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
maximus wrote:
I'll answer you last point first. You are correct of course, that babies and warts are both living things. The real difference, as you pointed out, is potential. The wart will always be just a wart, but the unborn baby just might be the future president of the U.S., or a doctor...who knows? When you k**l the baby, you k**l everything it may have accomplished in life.

As for a description of life, maybe I'm not using the correct words. You said the living body has the "ability" to function, while the dead body does not. I believe that ability comes only with life...where there is no life, there is no ability. Our ability to function does not include dreaming and imagining. If we lived as animals, only concerned with eating, safety, and procreation, we would have survived just as well as we have, maybe even better. What I was asking for is to give a scientific explanation of the ability you spoke of, or life. You see, I don't believe science CAN answer that question...what is life. Science can tell you when something is alive or not, but I don't believe science can tell you why one thing is live and another thing, identical in every way, is dead. A body can be kept functional artificially, but that doesn't mean that there's "anybody home". On the other hand, the body can be clinically dead and the "life" can still be returned to the body.
I hope I explained it better this time around.
Have a great day, JW
I'll answer you last point first. You are correct ... (show quote)

How would you describe a person that is comatose ... i.e. the body continues to "live" as in it is performing all of the functions that are necessary for "life" as medically defined? The house is there and functional, but nobody's home. Is this person still alive? And consider the case of Terry Sciavo where the thinking parts of the brain were totally absent (proven by autopsy) yet the person was "conscious" and able to react in a rudimentary manner instinctively. Is this person alive?

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May 23, 2019 14:39:24   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
If, big IF, it is ever possible for science, philosophy, politics and religion to actually determine and agree on what point we become "beings", what then? What would be the benefits? What would we gain? Would we then have justification to destroy life before it becomes a "being"? Would we then have license to do wh**ever we please with anything bearing the potential to become a "being"? Would we then be able to put a dollar amount on human life? Would this open the door to further determinations on what constitutes a being? Where, in God's name, would this end?
If, big IF, it is ever possible for science, philo... (show quote)

As I have pointed out before, we put a value on a human life every day in the medical profession. The value placed on a life that has the resources to provide life sustaining measures is far greater than that of a homeless person that suffers the same situation. It is false thinking to say that we cannot place a value on a human life. We do it thousands of times a day.

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May 23, 2019 14:42:36   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
JW wrote:
People k**l cats, wolves, deer and a host of other creatures, (in my mind, some of them are beings), and they are far more advanced than a 20 week foetus. How is an insentient growth inside a woman more important than those others we eliminate from their lives?

Your entire argument rests on its human potential and an unprovable belief that it has a soul at the moment of conception. Why should any woman be required to act according to your belief system if she doesn't subsribe?

Koko, the sentient gorilla, was able to communicate ideas and sentiments. I have to believe that she was a 'being' by the definitions that I'm able to live with. Just because we're defined as 'humans' doesn't mean that we're the only sentient species on the planet ... in fact, many species also exhibit some forms of sentient behavior.

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May 23, 2019 14:46:57   #
susanblange Loc: USA
 
whitnebrat wrote:
Ummm... every church I've ever been in worshiped and prayed to the symbols that were displayed at the altar. Just my opinion ...


You're absolutely right. Christians worship the images and it is the same way pagans have always worshiped their idols. God is going to judge us for that. Christianity is called the "great t***sgression". Psalm 19:13. History repeats itself if we do not learn from it. Christians are as tenaciously joined to their idols as the children of Israel were in ages past. If they cling to their idols until the end, they're not going to make it.

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May 23, 2019 14:47:24   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
I posed some questions about future possibilities.

You are making some outlandish assumptions. How do you know a growth inside a woman is insentient? Can you prove that? How do you know that the existence of a soul is unprovable? Just because science has not yet provided empirical evidence one way or the other, who's to say one day it won't?

Besides, science is not the only path to knowledge. The statement that science is the only way to t***h contradicts itself because that statement has no basis in science.
I posed some questions about future possibilities.... (show quote)

"What is t***h?" Probably in the eye of the beholder. It is probably unfortunate that we comingle science with logic. There is illogical science and scientific illogical theories. Science is the gathering of facts ... logic is the assembly of those facts into a plausible explanation. The t***h from science is the output of both modes of thinking. It is totally outside the realm of religion, which relies on myth, allegory and unfounded belief for its creation and existence.

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May 23, 2019 14:47:37   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
whitnebrat wrote:
As I have pointed out before, we put a value on a human life every day in the medical profession. The value placed on a life that has the resources to provide life sustaining measures is far greater than that of a homeless person that suffers the same situation. It is false thinking to say that we cannot place a value on a human life. We do it thousands of times a day.
The arrogance of some people is an absolute disgrace. What a shame.

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May 23, 2019 14:48:53   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
Morgan wrote:
Great, glad yo hear it, I love exchanging thoughts Let's maybe define potential... what is not presently but will be, if able to come to completion.

Defined as: having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.

synonyms: possible, likely, prospective, future, probable, budding, in the making; More
latent, embryonic, developing, dormant, inherent, unrealized, undeveloped
"a potential source of conflict"

noun
noun: potential; plural noun: potentials

1.
latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.
"a young broadcaster with great potential"
synonyms: possibilities, potentiality, prospects; More
promise, capability, capacity, ability, power;
aptitude, talent, flair;
informalwhat it takes
"the economic potential of the area"
the possibility of something happening or of someone doing something in the future.
"pesticides with the potential to cause cancer"
2.
Physics
the quantity determining the energy of mass in a gravitational field or of charge in an electric field.

We can go back to my example of a ball of clay, it has all of the elements of a vase, but it is not...yet, does that mean it IS a vase while it sits as a ball of clay, or...will it someday be. Now, as you say, when is that? Where is that line of demarcation?

There is also an ideology that physical life is everything, I don't hold that to be true.

As there is a spiritual afterlife, I believe there is also spiritual prior life in the beyond. What is above, there is below. Souls who choose this journey to the physical world, a learning experience to acquire a higher plateau of soul consciousness. As Jesus had a contract, we all come with contracts to fulfill, our free choices is a part of that and our outcome. Just my thoughts to share. I hope not to get too banged up for sharing this...
Great, glad yo hear it, I love exchanging thoughts... (show quote)


Not by me.

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May 23, 2019 14:49:38   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
whitnebrat wrote:
"What is t***h?" Probably in the eye of the beholder. It is probably unfortunate that we comingle science with logic. There is illogical science and scientific illogical theories. Science is the gathering of facts ... logic is the assembly of those facts into a plausible explanation. The t***h from science is the output of both modes of thinking. It is totally outside the realm of religion, which relies on myth, allegory and unfounded belief for its creation and existence.
The statement that science is the only way to the t***h contradicts itself because that statement has no basis in science.

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May 23, 2019 14:50:54   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
The arrogance of some people is an absolute disgrace. What a shame.


but you're not disputing the facts as stated. Just shooting the messenger.

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May 23, 2019 14:51:55   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
The statement that science is the only way to the t***h contradicts itself because that statement has no basis in science.


Prime example of circular logic. Use linear logic and scientific method and you get a lot further.

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May 23, 2019 15:19:37   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
whitnebrat wrote:
Prime example of circular logic. Use linear logic and scientific method and you get a lot further.
Show me a law of science that proves science is the only way to the t***h.

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May 23, 2019 15:45:34   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
It would end with our total destruction, If, and this is a big IF, we were capable of wresting from Almighty God's autonomous (independent, self-governing, informed, un-coerced ) hands, the final destiny of our country and our world. We, however, cannot change God's timetable, not one second.

We are destroying life that has begun, and therefore, has "being."

We are doing as we please with unborn children, in the laboratories, and in cosmetic and shampoo factories.

We have put a dollar amount on the human body parts of unborn infants.

Again, it will end with our total destruction as a nation and as a people, for we have tolerated it since 1973, forty six years of legally sanctioned wanton slaughter.

UNLESS the God of all mercy, righteousness and justice can forgive an unrepentant people, which would deny and violate His very character, we will as a nation, perish.

The possibility of we, as a nation, bowing humbly before God in total remorse, as they did at Ninuvuh, is very remote.

God will end this in a day of His choosing.



Blade_Runner wrote:
If, big IF, it is ever possible for science, philosophy, politics and religion to actually determine and agree on what point we become "beings", what then? What would be the benefits? What would we gain? Would we then have justification to destroy life before it becomes a "being"? Would we then have license to do wh**ever we please with anything bearing the potential to become a "being"? Would we then be able to put a dollar amount on human life? Would this open the door to further determinations on what constitutes a being? Where, in God's name, would this end?
If, big IF, it is ever possible for science, philo... (show quote)

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May 23, 2019 15:49:43   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
whitnebrat wrote:
but you're not disputing the facts as stated. Just shooting the messenger.
It is the height of arrogance for a human being to assume the authority to determine the value of another human's life based only on that person's health, social status, or economic circumstances.

All men are created equal.. they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights . . . among these are LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness . . . .

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