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At what point are we "beings?"
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May 17, 2019 22:28:33   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
When an egg if fertilized, is it a being? I asked my daughter when she was two, where is she. She instinctively pointed to her head. We are who our brains are, not our beating hearts.

At what point does a mass of neurons come together to make up a being? And don't say potential to be a "being" is being a "being." Every cell in our bodies has the potential to be a "being."

It's not about potential, it's about when we actually are.

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May 17, 2019 22:57:18   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
When an egg if fertilized, is it a being? I asked my daughter when she was two, where is she. She instinctively pointed to her head. We are who our brains are, not our beating hearts.

At what point does a mass of neurons come together to make up a being? And don't say potential to be a "being" is being a "being." Every cell in our bodies has the potential to be a "being."

It's not about potential, it's about when we actually are.


Superb argument...

I take it you are referencing only human life, correct?

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May 17, 2019 23:00:40   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
When an egg if fertilized, is it a being? I asked my daughter when she was two, where is she. She instinctively pointed to her head. We are who our brains are, not our beating hearts.

At what point does a mass of neurons come together to make up a being? And don't say potential to be a "being" is being a "being." Every cell in our bodies has the potential to be a "being."

It's not about potential, it's about when we actually are.
human beings are not a body in possession of a soul, we are a soul in possession of a body.

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May 17, 2019 23:01:32   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Superb argument...

I take it you are referencing only human life, correct?


Yes.

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May 17, 2019 23:12:42   #
JW
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
human beings are not a body in possession of a soul, we are a soul in possession of a body.


If the soul is immortal, won't it just find another potential body? Does it really matter to the soul what body it ends up with?

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May 17, 2019 23:21:57   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
JW wrote:
If the soul is immortal, won't it just find another potential body? Does it really matter to the soul what body it ends up with?


Fear not those who can k**l the body but not the soul, fear Him who can k**l the body and the soul in Gehenna
Jesus (Matthew 10:28)

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May 17, 2019 23:27:29   #
JW
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
Fear not those who can k**l the body but not the soul, fear Him who can k**l the body and the soul in Gehenna
Jesus (Matthew 10:28)


That doesn't answer my question but it does confirm the immortality of the soul.

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May 18, 2019 00:18:50   #
Ricktloml
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
When an egg if fertilized, is it a being? I asked my daughter when she was two, where is she. She instinctively pointed to her head. We are who our brains are, not our beating hearts.

At what point does a mass of neurons come together to make up a being? And don't say potential to be a "being" is being a "being." Every cell in our bodies has the potential to be a "being."

It's not about potential, it's about when we actually are.


I would like to point out if there is a question about when life begins, until it can be proven without a shadow of doubt that life does not begin at conception, the civilized, humane, moral, decent choice is to err on the side of life...because to make the wrong choice would be beyond horrific

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May 18, 2019 01:58:33   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
JW wrote:
That doesn't answer my question but it does confirm the immortality of the soul.


Not immortal if the soul can be destroyed, right?

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May 18, 2019 02:05:08   #
Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX
 
JW wrote:
That doesn't answer my question but it does confirm the immortality of the soul.


The only souls that inhabit another body would be called demons, according to the Bible.

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May 18, 2019 02:05:17   #
PeterS
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
When an egg if fertilized, is it a being? I asked my daughter when she was two, where is she. She instinctively pointed to her head. We are who our brains are, not our beating hearts.

At what point does a mass of neurons come together to make up a being? And don't say potential to be a "being" is being a "being." Every cell in our bodies has the potential to be a "being."

It's not about potential, it's about when we actually are.

Does it matter? I know more than a few conservatives who will argue that we become 'beings' the moment of inception and I know more than a few Liberals who will swear that there is a whole swath of Conservatives who will never approach the status of being.

If this is about a******n than I think the question of viability has to be addressed because even if you are a 'being' if your life isn't viable than only an extremist can argue against a mothers rights to control her own body. And that's where RvW is today--with extremists from the right trying to strip women of their rights to control their own bodies. They may win too...at least temporarily.

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May 18, 2019 02:38:11   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
When an egg if fertilized, is it a being? I asked my daughter when she was two, where is she. She instinctively pointed to her head. We are who our brains are, not our beating hearts.

At what point does a mass of neurons come together to make up a being? And don't say potential to be a "being" is being a "being." Every cell in our bodies has the potential to be a "being."

It's not about potential, it's about when we actually are.


An excellent query... Let us examine it...

But first....
My apologies...
I have moved some of what you wrote around so as to better formulate my answers...
It is not my intention to misrepresent what you stated...
If I do so and draw incorrect conclusions then please make me aware and I will of course retract my statements...

Quote:
When an egg if fertilized, is it a being?


We will come back to this... But yes... That is my answer to the question...

Quote:
Every cell in our bodies has the potential to be a "being."


No.. This is a false premise...

Firstly... There is not a single cell in your body that if placed in a woman's womb would naturally develop into a separate entity... Outside of genetic manipulation and invitro fertilization such a premise has no validity...

Secondly... There is no naturally occurring pregnancy that begins with a single cell in a human body... To create new life requires the combination of cells from a male and a female... (remember, we are discussing human life)...

Thirdly.... The cell that results from the combination of sperm and egg (Which came first , right?... Come on... You got it... Admit that you chuckled...) is unique from all other cells in the host's (mother's) body... It is unique from all other cells that have ever existed or will ever exist... Whether or not one believes in a Higher Power or universal moral codes, one can appreciate the beauty of such uniqueness... And the truly amazing part of it is that no other combination of egg and sperm (Even from the same two genetic donors) will ever match this cell again...

Quote:
I asked my daughter when she was two, where is she. She instinctively pointed to her head. We are who our brains are, not our beating hearts.


I must assume you are speaking of consciousness and self-awareness...Not simply a functioning brain...(Otherwise one could make a case for infanticide from this premise...)...

This opens up a number of Pandora's boxes...
1. If an animal is self-aware (as studies have shown many are) does it constitute life equal to that of humans? (I am aware that there are many advocates for this argument...)
2. If an individual suffers brain damage or dementia does it constitute a 'loss' of life? Would we be justified in euthanizing that individual? (aware that this too has its advocates...)
3. How does one define self-awareness? Are there litmus tests for it that we are willing to put our faith in to the point of commiting 'murder' should an individual fail?

My response to this premise...
I defy a brain to survive without a beating heart... Indeed I defy a brain to develop without a beating heart...

Quote:
At what point does a mass of neurons come together to make up a being?


How many pieces of sand constitute a pile?
If we remove one is it still a brain/pile?
What is the exact number?

This is the most difficult question to answer because it forces us onto a false premise (a most insidious/ingenious one at that) of presuming that we have already agreed that the brain and consciousness constitute 'life'...

We are not beating hearts, or clumps of neurons, or sexual organs (Despite what my exes might insinuate..)..
We are a unique combination of genetic material that cannot be defined by any one part but only as a whole....

Quote:
And don't say potential to be a "being" is being a "being."


There is no such thing as a "potential" being...
One either is or one isn't....
If we defined "potential to be a "being" is being a "being." Then any woman who has a period is guilty of murder of a "potential being" and any man who has ever masturbated/ pull out/ used a condom/ had a wet dream or simply failed to impregnate his mate is guilty of mass murder...

Quote:
It's not about potential, it's about when we actually are.


You... The you that has posted this most excellent thread... Began as a single cell...
All that you are and have been and ever will be began with that single cell... A blessed combination of a sperm from your father and an egg from your mother...
You.... The you who will no doubt formulate a most excellent response to my response... Are unique from all other beings in that the cell you began as was unique from all other cells...

So...

Quote:
When an egg if fertilized, is it a being?


Yes....
Life starts at the moment uniqueness is achieved ...

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May 18, 2019 03:39:58   #
PeterS
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
human beings are not a body in possession of a soul, we are a soul in possession of a body.

Good thing since 25% of all pregnancies ends in miscarriage. Think what would have happened if all those countless children that god had k**led if they didn't have souls. Lost in limbo I suppose, think what a monster that would make that god of yours if souls were bestowed sometime later! The question I have is since your god knows all, including our future before it has even happened, why would he create life knowing that it was going to end in miscarriage or a******n? That seems a bit heavy-handed for something that is supposed to be a loving and caring god. If god were so caring why would he create life knowing it was going to die before it even had a chance?

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May 18, 2019 03:44:44   #
PeterS
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
Fear not those who can k**l the body but not the soul, fear Him who can k**l the body and the soul in Gehenna
Jesus (Matthew 10:28)

If god could destroy the soul then how could he throw it into hell? Think of all the mythology that you invalidate with a god who can destroy one's very soul...

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May 18, 2019 03:57:26   #
JW
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
Not immortal if the soul can be destroyed, right?


Immortal until God destroys it. Why would God destroy the soul after an a******n? Wouldn't it seem more loving and compassionate to find the soul another body where it would be cherished?

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