Why is God a He
May 26, 2019 20:42:10 #
TommyRadd wrote:
This is absolutely NOT what traditional Trinitaria... (show quote)
TommyRadd, there is absolutely no one who is going to wade through your mountains of protest.
May 26, 2019 20:54:35 #
rumitoid wrote:
TommyRadd, there is absolutely no one who is going to wade through your mountains of protest.
Speak for yourself
May 26, 2019 20:57:48 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Speak for yourself
My bad. If you can digest or summarize it for easier consumption, highlight the main points and such, it will be a service.
May 26, 2019 20:58:16 #
Rose42 wrote:
Far finer minds have dealt with that false teaching.
Far finer minds have dealt with that false teaching.Could you provide a few?
Who deal directly with the argument provided..
Quote:
There’s nothing I can add.
Agreed... Much to my disappointment...
Quote:
Tommy isn’t the first and won’t be the last false teacher.
Think I will leave this one to God...
His judgement is pretty fair
May 26, 2019 21:01:04 #
rumitoid wrote:
My bad. If you can digest or summarize it for easier consumption, highlight the main points and such, it will be a service.
I wish....
It takes me a Good hour or two to check some of the references and make sure the Scripture quoted isn't being "cherry-picked"...
Also... I would be hesitant of misrepresenting the argument that Tommy has built...
Certainly we could ask him what he considers the main points to be....
Edit: The APP Zemirah shared with me has really cut down the time I spend vetting Scripture... It is truly excellent...
You can find it a few pages earlier on the thread... Superb
May 26, 2019 21:08:27 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
I wish.... br br It takes me a Good hour or two ... (show quote)
Thank you, I found it.
May 26, 2019 21:17:52 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Think I will leave this one to God...
His judgement is pretty fair
His judgement is pretty fair
He is just. And we are warned multiple times about false teaching and how to recognize it. He will deal harshly with them.
I’ve provided names before. John MacArthur and RC Sproul are just two of many.
May 26, 2019 21:19:48 #
rumitoid wrote:
My bad. If you can digest or summarize it for easier consumption, highlight the main points and such, it will be a service.
Do a search on anti-trinitarian or unitarian and you can get the gist of it without so much rambling.
May 26, 2019 21:24:10 #
Rose42 wrote:
Do a search on anti-trinitarian or unitarian and you can get the gist of it without so much rambling.
Great, thank you.
May 26, 2019 21:27:42 #
TommyRadd
Loc: Midwest USA
Rose42 wrote:
Do a search on anti-trinitarian or unitarian and you can get the gist of it without so much rambling.
Or read the book of Acts!
May 26, 2019 21:38:58 #
Rose42 wrote:
Rose, this discussion is like the spectral hourglass, the upper glass never empties and the lower glass never fills. It would be best to allow the believers in a Monadic God to practice their beliefs without making any claims against them. The same is true in the reverse. Using the Bible to argue for and against itself is a violation of the law of non-contradiction, it renders this discussion in a deadlock. IOW, neither side of the argument will convince the other.Like Blade said you aren’t going to convince anyone who doesn’t share your belief. You won’t sway those who know the t***h with page after page of empty rhetoric and false claims. You can always start your own topic and people can read it if they want to.
May 26, 2019 21:46:21 #
Here Tommy...
My friend relied heavily (Including copying parts) on John Mac Arthur Pastor of Grace Community Church...
The second art is his own understanding....
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count e******y with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:6-11ESV)
Exegesis of the portion :
Phil. 2:6 he was in the form of God. Paul affirms that Jesus eternally has been God. The usual Greek word for “was” or “being” is not used here. Instead, Paul chose another term that stresses the essence of a person’s nature—his continuous state or condition. Paul also could have chosen one of two Greek words for “form,” but he chose the one that specifically denotes the essential, unchanging character of something—what it is in and of itself. The fundamental doctrine of Christ’s deity has always encompassed these crucial characteristics (cf. John 1:1; 3–4; 14; 8:58; Col. 1:15–17; Heb. 1:3). e******y with God. The Greek word for “e******y” defines things that are exactly the same in size, quantity, quality, character, and number. In every sense, Jesus is equal to God and constantly claimed to be so during his earthly ministry (cf. John 5:18; 10:33; 38; 14:9; 20:28; Heb. 1:1–3). grasped. The Greek word originally meant “a thing seized by robbery.” It eventually came to mean anything clutched, embraced, or prized, and thus is sometimes t***slated “held onto.” Though Christ had all the rights, privileges, and honors of deity—which he was worthy of and could never be disqualified from—his attitude was not to cling to those things or his position but to be willing to give them up for a season. See notes on John 17:1–5.
Phil. 2:7 made himself nothing. From this Greek word comes the theological word “kenosis”; i.e., the doctrine of Christ’s self-emptying in his incarnation. This was a self-renunciation, not an emptying himself of deity nor an exchange of deity for humanity (see notes on v. 6). Jesus did, however, renounce or set aside his privileges in several areas: 1) heavenly glory—while on earth he gave up the glory of a face-to-face relationship with God and the continuous outward display and personal enjoyment of that glory (cf. John 17:5); 2) independent authority—during his incarnation Christ completely submitted himself to the will of his Father (see note on Phil. 2:8; cf. Matt. 26:39; John 5:30; Heb. 5:8); 3) divine prerogatives—he set aside the voluntary display of his divine attributes and submitted himself to the Spirit’s direction (cf. Matt. 24:36; John 1:45–49); 4) eternal riches—while on earth Christ was poor and owned very little (cf. 2 Cor. 8:9); and 5) a favorable relationship with God—he felt the Father’s wrath for human sin while on the cross (cf. Matt. 27:46; see note on 2 Cor. 5:21). form of a servant. Again, Paul uses the Greek word “form,” which indicates exact essence (see note on Phil. 2:6). As a true servant (see note on 1:1), Jesus submissively did the will of his Father (cf. Isa. 52:13–14). the likeness of men. Christ became more than God in a human body, but he took on all the essential attributes of humanity (Luke 2:52; Gal. 4:4; Col. 1:22), even to the extent that he identified with basic human needs and weaknesses (cf. Heb. 2:14; 17; 4:15). He became the God-Man: fully God and fully man.
Phil. 2:8 in human form. This is not simply a repetition of the last phrase in v. 7, but a shift from the heavenly focus to an earthly one. Christ’s humanity is described from the viewpoint of those who saw him. Paul is implying that although he outwardly looked like a man, there was much more to him (his deity) than many people recognized naturally (cf. John 6:42; 8:48). he humbled himself. After the humbling of incarnation, Jesus further humbled himself in that he did not demand normal human rights, but subjected himself to persecution and suffering at the hands of unbelievers (cf. Isa. 53:7; Matt. 26:62–64; Mark 14:60–61; 1 Pet. 2:23). obedient . . . death. Beyond even persecution, Jesus went to the lowest point or furthest extent in his humiliation in dying as a criminal, following God’s plan for him (cf. Matt. 26:39; Acts 2:23). a cross. See notes on Matt. 27:29–50. Even further humiliation was his because Jesus’ death was not by ordinary means, but was accomplished by crucifixion—the cruelest, most excruciating, most degrading form of death ever devised. The Jews h**ed this manner of execution (Deut. 21:23; see note on Gal. 3:13).
Phil. 2:9 Therefore God. Christ’s humiliation (vv. 5–8) and exaltation by God (vv. 9–11) are causally and inseparably linked. highly exalted him. Christ’s exaltation was fourfold. The early sermons of the apostles affirm his resurrection and c****ation (his position at the right hand of God), and allude to his intercession for believers (Acts 2:32–33; 5:30–31; cf. Eph. 1:20–21; Heb. 4:15; 7:25–26). Hebrews 4:14 refers to the final element, his ascension. The exaltation did not concern Christ’s nature or eternal place within the Trinity, but his new identity as the God-Man (cf. John 5:22; Rom. 1:4; 14:9; 1 Cor. 15:24–25). In addition to receiving back his glory (John 17:5), Christ’s new status as the God-Man meant God gave him privileges he did not have prior to the incarnation. If he had not lived among men, he could not have identified with them as the interceding High Priest. Had he not died on the cross, he could not have been elevated from that lowest degree back to heaven as the substitute for sin. name . . . above every name. Christ’s new name, which further describes his essential nature and places him above and beyond all comparison, is “Lord.” This name is the NT synonym for OT descriptions of God as sovereign ruler. Both before (Isa. 45:21–23; Mark 15:2; Luke 2:11; John 13:13; 18:37; 20:28) and after (Acts 2:36; 10:36; Rom. 14:9–11; 1 Cor. 8:6; 15:57; Rev. 17:14; 19:16) the exaltation, Scripture affirms that this was Jesus’ rightful title as the God-Man.
Phil. 2:10–11 bow . . . confess. The entire intelligent universe is called to worship Jesus Christ as Lord (cf. Ps. 2). This mandate includes the angels in heaven (Rev. 4:2–9), the spirits of the redeemed (Rev. 4:10–11), obedient believers on earth (Rom. 10:9), the disobedient rebels on earth (2 Thess. 1:7–9), demons and lost humanity in hell (1 Pet. 3:18–22). The Greek word for “confess” means “to acknowledge,” “affirm,” or “agree” which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ’s lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.
Phil. 2:10 at the name of Jesus. “Jesus” was the name bestowed at his birth (Matt. 1:21), not his new name. The name for Jesus given in the fullest sense after his exaltation, was “Lord” (see note on Phil. 2:11).
Phil. 2:11 Lord. See note on v. 9. “Lord” primarily refers to the right to rule, and in the NT it denotes mastery over or ownership of people and property. When applied to Jesus, it certainly implies his deity, but it mainly refers to sovereign authority. glory of God the Father. The purpose of Christ’s exaltation (cf. Matt. 17:5; John 5:23; 13:31–32; 1 Cor. 15:28).
My friend's understanding:
This is how I see the trinity that God is a being in relationship and He also creates the world with relationship since this is his character , which is an addition to His character of mercy and justice and for Him to express these characters fully He needed a world and in the world , He needed to put sinners there so that these characters could be revealed as He pleases by His divine sovereign will so and the reason for the gospel of love to the world is to show that God is a God of relationship and He seeks relationship with man but the mere fact that He seeks relationship with man makes us understand that He in His infinite nature He is a being in a relationship ,Three distinct persons in one being (God) but we cannot really get to the heart of how this works out because we are finite beings and He is Infinite
My friend relied heavily (Including copying parts) on John Mac Arthur Pastor of Grace Community Church...
The second art is his own understanding....
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count e******y with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:6-11ESV)
Exegesis of the portion :
Phil. 2:6 he was in the form of God. Paul affirms that Jesus eternally has been God. The usual Greek word for “was” or “being” is not used here. Instead, Paul chose another term that stresses the essence of a person’s nature—his continuous state or condition. Paul also could have chosen one of two Greek words for “form,” but he chose the one that specifically denotes the essential, unchanging character of something—what it is in and of itself. The fundamental doctrine of Christ’s deity has always encompassed these crucial characteristics (cf. John 1:1; 3–4; 14; 8:58; Col. 1:15–17; Heb. 1:3). e******y with God. The Greek word for “e******y” defines things that are exactly the same in size, quantity, quality, character, and number. In every sense, Jesus is equal to God and constantly claimed to be so during his earthly ministry (cf. John 5:18; 10:33; 38; 14:9; 20:28; Heb. 1:1–3). grasped. The Greek word originally meant “a thing seized by robbery.” It eventually came to mean anything clutched, embraced, or prized, and thus is sometimes t***slated “held onto.” Though Christ had all the rights, privileges, and honors of deity—which he was worthy of and could never be disqualified from—his attitude was not to cling to those things or his position but to be willing to give them up for a season. See notes on John 17:1–5.
Phil. 2:7 made himself nothing. From this Greek word comes the theological word “kenosis”; i.e., the doctrine of Christ’s self-emptying in his incarnation. This was a self-renunciation, not an emptying himself of deity nor an exchange of deity for humanity (see notes on v. 6). Jesus did, however, renounce or set aside his privileges in several areas: 1) heavenly glory—while on earth he gave up the glory of a face-to-face relationship with God and the continuous outward display and personal enjoyment of that glory (cf. John 17:5); 2) independent authority—during his incarnation Christ completely submitted himself to the will of his Father (see note on Phil. 2:8; cf. Matt. 26:39; John 5:30; Heb. 5:8); 3) divine prerogatives—he set aside the voluntary display of his divine attributes and submitted himself to the Spirit’s direction (cf. Matt. 24:36; John 1:45–49); 4) eternal riches—while on earth Christ was poor and owned very little (cf. 2 Cor. 8:9); and 5) a favorable relationship with God—he felt the Father’s wrath for human sin while on the cross (cf. Matt. 27:46; see note on 2 Cor. 5:21). form of a servant. Again, Paul uses the Greek word “form,” which indicates exact essence (see note on Phil. 2:6). As a true servant (see note on 1:1), Jesus submissively did the will of his Father (cf. Isa. 52:13–14). the likeness of men. Christ became more than God in a human body, but he took on all the essential attributes of humanity (Luke 2:52; Gal. 4:4; Col. 1:22), even to the extent that he identified with basic human needs and weaknesses (cf. Heb. 2:14; 17; 4:15). He became the God-Man: fully God and fully man.
Phil. 2:8 in human form. This is not simply a repetition of the last phrase in v. 7, but a shift from the heavenly focus to an earthly one. Christ’s humanity is described from the viewpoint of those who saw him. Paul is implying that although he outwardly looked like a man, there was much more to him (his deity) than many people recognized naturally (cf. John 6:42; 8:48). he humbled himself. After the humbling of incarnation, Jesus further humbled himself in that he did not demand normal human rights, but subjected himself to persecution and suffering at the hands of unbelievers (cf. Isa. 53:7; Matt. 26:62–64; Mark 14:60–61; 1 Pet. 2:23). obedient . . . death. Beyond even persecution, Jesus went to the lowest point or furthest extent in his humiliation in dying as a criminal, following God’s plan for him (cf. Matt. 26:39; Acts 2:23). a cross. See notes on Matt. 27:29–50. Even further humiliation was his because Jesus’ death was not by ordinary means, but was accomplished by crucifixion—the cruelest, most excruciating, most degrading form of death ever devised. The Jews h**ed this manner of execution (Deut. 21:23; see note on Gal. 3:13).
Phil. 2:9 Therefore God. Christ’s humiliation (vv. 5–8) and exaltation by God (vv. 9–11) are causally and inseparably linked. highly exalted him. Christ’s exaltation was fourfold. The early sermons of the apostles affirm his resurrection and c****ation (his position at the right hand of God), and allude to his intercession for believers (Acts 2:32–33; 5:30–31; cf. Eph. 1:20–21; Heb. 4:15; 7:25–26). Hebrews 4:14 refers to the final element, his ascension. The exaltation did not concern Christ’s nature or eternal place within the Trinity, but his new identity as the God-Man (cf. John 5:22; Rom. 1:4; 14:9; 1 Cor. 15:24–25). In addition to receiving back his glory (John 17:5), Christ’s new status as the God-Man meant God gave him privileges he did not have prior to the incarnation. If he had not lived among men, he could not have identified with them as the interceding High Priest. Had he not died on the cross, he could not have been elevated from that lowest degree back to heaven as the substitute for sin. name . . . above every name. Christ’s new name, which further describes his essential nature and places him above and beyond all comparison, is “Lord.” This name is the NT synonym for OT descriptions of God as sovereign ruler. Both before (Isa. 45:21–23; Mark 15:2; Luke 2:11; John 13:13; 18:37; 20:28) and after (Acts 2:36; 10:36; Rom. 14:9–11; 1 Cor. 8:6; 15:57; Rev. 17:14; 19:16) the exaltation, Scripture affirms that this was Jesus’ rightful title as the God-Man.
Phil. 2:10–11 bow . . . confess. The entire intelligent universe is called to worship Jesus Christ as Lord (cf. Ps. 2). This mandate includes the angels in heaven (Rev. 4:2–9), the spirits of the redeemed (Rev. 4:10–11), obedient believers on earth (Rom. 10:9), the disobedient rebels on earth (2 Thess. 1:7–9), demons and lost humanity in hell (1 Pet. 3:18–22). The Greek word for “confess” means “to acknowledge,” “affirm,” or “agree” which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ’s lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.
Phil. 2:10 at the name of Jesus. “Jesus” was the name bestowed at his birth (Matt. 1:21), not his new name. The name for Jesus given in the fullest sense after his exaltation, was “Lord” (see note on Phil. 2:11).
Phil. 2:11 Lord. See note on v. 9. “Lord” primarily refers to the right to rule, and in the NT it denotes mastery over or ownership of people and property. When applied to Jesus, it certainly implies his deity, but it mainly refers to sovereign authority. glory of God the Father. The purpose of Christ’s exaltation (cf. Matt. 17:5; John 5:23; 13:31–32; 1 Cor. 15:28).
My friend's understanding:
This is how I see the trinity that God is a being in relationship and He also creates the world with relationship since this is his character , which is an addition to His character of mercy and justice and for Him to express these characters fully He needed a world and in the world , He needed to put sinners there so that these characters could be revealed as He pleases by His divine sovereign will so and the reason for the gospel of love to the world is to show that God is a God of relationship and He seeks relationship with man but the mere fact that He seeks relationship with man makes us understand that He in His infinite nature He is a being in a relationship ,Three distinct persons in one being (God) but we cannot really get to the heart of how this works out because we are finite beings and He is Infinite
May 26, 2019 21:58:48 #
Blade_Runner wrote:
Rose, this discussion is like the spectral hourglass, the upper glass never empties and the lower glass never fills. It would be best to allow the believers in a Monadic God to practice their beliefs without making any claims against them. The same is true in the reverse. Using the Bible to argue for and against itself is a violation of the law of non-contradiction, it renders this discussion in a deadlock. IOW, neither side of the argument will convince the other.
Thats true. I like the hourglass analogy.
May 26, 2019 22:11:21 #
TommyRadd
Loc: Midwest USA
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Good morning/evening Tommy... br br Love it when... (show quote)
Thanks Kyle,
I’ll be interested in reading your friend’s response, and please tell him so!
One of the many things I haven’t gotten to in this thread is some of the highly contrasting views between the pagan view of God and the biblical Jewish view. Of course, the early platonistic-Trinitarians always leaned to the pagan philosophical view and rejected the Jewish view. Without the awareness, let alone understanding and acceptance of them, it is easy to see how Trinitarians believe the Bible supports their ideas when, if you let the Bible explain itself, it becomes crystal clear- so much so as to be hidden in plain site! The confusion is definitely not on the apostles, it is all in those philosophers who made false word associations by which to join pagan ideas onto biblical words.
Perhaps I’ll be able to get to that with someone who actually has enough <fill in the blank> to discuss the issues and concepts.
May 26, 2019 23:57:42 #
TommyRadd wrote:
Thanks Kyle, br br I’ll be interested in reading ... (show quote)
As an athiest who read the Bible hoping to use it against his friends in a childish spat over faith, and was then led to see the t***h of God through His words to us, I have never experienced the faith that most Christians have grown up with...
Which is to say that I have never been taught of the Trinity prior to reading the Bible and only had the most basic of understandings concerning God and Christ and the rest of Scripture...
My understanding of God and Christ came from my own reading of the Bible... And I was somewhat shocked the first few times I attended Church and was told that Christ was God...
I owe much of my understanding of the Lord to those priests, preachers and pastors who took the time to answer my questions and guide me on my journey... As well as numerous individuals who have shared their understandings with me...
Yet there are still unresolved questions...
My goal is not to answer all of my questions...But to enjoy the journey until I reach the path at the end of the clearing... The next step awaits and is most intriguing...
Thanks for your patience and for taking the time to answer my questions...
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