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What most Christians do not understand or ignore: it is either being true to America or Christ. There can be no compromise between the two
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Feb 16, 2019 20:24:25   #
rumitoid
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
Note: this forum has a section called Faith, Religion, Spirituality where members can preach, sermonize, or proselytize.

I don't believe Love inspired you to post this condemnation of America and its loyal citizens. Your attempt to do so opens the door to many questions regarding your motives, and to base your sermonizing on the teachings of Jesus Christ is blasphemous. If you are totally committed to serving God sans the trappings of earthly life and without embracing good stewardship of God's creation, then get off your high horse and act like it.

Every faculty you have, your power of thinking or of moving your limbs from moment to moment, is given you by God. If you dev**ed every moment of your whole life exclusively to His service, you could not give Him anything that was not in a sense His own already.
C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
Note: this forum has a section called url=https:/... (show quote)


As my signature, more C.S. Lewis: "The more God takes us over, the more our true selves we become."

No matter what you post under, it goes to Main, it is not separated into distinct sections as it once was. You should know that.

You said, "I don't believe Love inspired you to post this condemnation of America and its loyal citizens." I did not condemn anyone; I quoted Jesus. If his word makes you think it is condemnation, then re-examine your beliefs.

Think what you want about my motives; your mind was made up as soon as you saw it was my post. But the post is not about me. If you can argue against the scripture I provided, find some fault in it, that is the topic. Come to a different conclusion somehow when he says not to swear an oath to anything. Find the loophole for the Pledge of Allegiance.

Like you, I am mortal and sin. That I believe in what Jesus said does not mean I will ever be perfect. The "high horse" you speak of is nothing more than quoting Christ. Accept his word or not.

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Feb 16, 2019 22:56:53   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
rumitoid wrote:
As my signature, more C.S. Lewis: "The more God takes us over, the more our true selves we become."

No matter what you post under, it goes to Main, it is not separated into distinct sections as it once was. You should know that.

You said, "I don't believe Love inspired you to post this condemnation of America and its loyal citizens." I did not condemn anyone; I quoted Jesus. If his word makes you think it is condemnation, then re-examine your beliefs.

Think what you want about my motives; your mind was made up as soon as you saw it was my post. But the post is not about me. If you can argue against the scripture I provided, find some fault in it, that is the topic. Come to a different conclusion somehow when he says not to swear an oath to anything. Find the loophole for the Pledge of Allegiance.

Like you, I am mortal and sin. That I believe in what Jesus said does not mean I will ever be perfect. The "high horse" you speak of is nothing more than quoting Christ. Accept his word or not.
As my signature, more C.S. Lewis: "The more G... (show quote)


Click on OPP "home", you'll see the section Faith, Religion, Spirituality. Posts there do not go to main.

Yeah, you quoted Jesus, so what? Every Christian worthy of the name is quite familiar with His teaching, His words, His commandments, so for what purpose did you quote Him? I smell an ulterior motive.

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Feb 16, 2019 23:18:08   #
rumitoid
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
Click on OPP "home", you'll see the section Faith, Religion, Spirituality. Posts there do not go to main.

Yeah, you quoted Jesus, so what? Every Christian worthy of the name is quite familiar with His teaching, His words, His commandments, so for what purpose did you quote Him? I smell an ulterior motive.


Thank you for the navigation Faith, Religion, Spirituality. I will use it in the future.

My purpose was an attempt to show the truly radical nature of Christ's teachings with an example, something I am waking up to now. It is just my understanding of the scripture I quoted. If you see it differently than I argued, fine. Of course, I would like it if you presented your arguments on the subject.

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Feb 18, 2019 09:39:10   #
Manning345 Loc: Richmond, Virginia
 
rumitoid wrote:
If we love our neighbor and enemy as ourselves, through spirit and grace, we have exercised all that is due to any government. “Our citizenship is in heaven.” (Philippians 3:20)

This is the spoiler: The way of Christ and naturally the follower of Christ is radically different than conventional wisdom and contrary to worldly values. Always.

To say the pledge of Allegiance is anti-Christian. Let's examine the major points of it by definitions:
Pledge: To offer or guarantee by a solemn binding promise, similar to an oath.
Allegiance: [1] the loyalty of a citizen to his or her government or of a subject to his or her sovereign. [2] loyalty or devotion to some person, group, cause, or the like.
F**g:  A usually rectangular piece of fabric of distinctive design that is used as a symbol.(In this case, a symbol for the Republic of the United States of America.)

From these definitions we can understand a couple of things. Making a pledge is basically the same thing as an oath. And, giving your allegiance to something or someone is basically committing your loyalty to that entity. Also, the f**g stands for something more than itself. It stands for the country/government it belongs to. In short, to pledge your allegiance to the f**g means that you are making an oath of loyalty to the country, the United States of America.

#1 Jesus directly and without any qualifiers condemns making an oath to anything for any reason.
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’  BUT I TELL YOU, DO NOT SWEAR AN OATH AT ALL: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.” (Matthew 5:33-37)

#2 Jesus also teaches that men cannot serve two masters at the same time.

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will h**e the one and love the other, or you will be dev**ed to the one and despise the other.” (Matthew 6:24)

We can’t give our loyalty to two masters and be pleasing to both. Whether the choice is between God and money, God and man, God and a government or nation, the choice is always the same, one or the other. It seems that Jesus is saying ‘you can’t have your cake and eat it too’. In light of this it just doesn’t seem possible to me to give my loyalty to God, and then try and give it to a government at the same time. Jesus also said ” My kingdom is not of this world”. Jesus has a kingdom, and just like an earthly kingdom , I can’t be loyal to two kingdoms at once. It would be impossible to be loyal to the USA and Iran at the same time! It’s the same with being part of the kingdom of God. Jesus calls us to be loyal to his kingdom, and if we have given our loyalty to God’s kingdom, how then can we try and give it to America or any other worldly kingdom?

Supplement on Worldliness covering patriotism and love of country:
James 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15-16 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful p***e of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be t***sformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
If we love our neighbor and enemy as ourselves, th... (show quote)


====================

Somewhere in the cobwebs of my mind I remember Jesus said something to the effect:
"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's."
Taken more generally, Jesus seems to recognize the need for us to live usefully under a government and for us to give God what He wants from us at the same time.

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