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What most Christians do not understand or ignore: it is either being true to America or Christ. There can be no compromise between the two
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Feb 15, 2019 19:56:13   #
rumitoid
 
If we love our neighbor and enemy as ourselves, through spirit and grace, we have exercised all that is due to any government. “Our citizenship is in heaven.” (Philippians 3:20)

This is the spoiler: The way of Christ and naturally the follower of Christ is radically different than conventional wisdom and contrary to worldly values. Always.

To say the pledge of Allegiance is anti-Christian. Let's examine the major points of it by definitions:
Pledge: To offer or guarantee by a solemn binding promise, similar to an oath.
Allegiance: [1] the loyalty of a citizen to his or her government or of a subject to his or her sovereign. [2] loyalty or devotion to some person, group, cause, or the like.
F**g:  A usually rectangular piece of fabric of distinctive design that is used as a symbol.(In this case, a symbol for the Republic of the United States of America.)

From these definitions we can understand a couple of things. Making a pledge is basically the same thing as an oath. And, giving your allegiance to something or someone is basically committing your loyalty to that entity. Also, the f**g stands for something more than itself. It stands for the country/government it belongs to. In short, to pledge your allegiance to the f**g means that you are making an oath of loyalty to the country, the United States of America.

#1 Jesus directly and without any qualifiers condemns making an oath to anything for any reason.
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’  BUT I TELL YOU, DO NOT SWEAR AN OATH AT ALL: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.” (Matthew 5:33-37)

#2 Jesus also teaches that men cannot serve two masters at the same time.

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will h**e the one and love the other, or you will be dev**ed to the one and despise the other.” (Matthew 6:24)

We can’t give our loyalty to two masters and be pleasing to both. Whether the choice is between God and money, God and man, God and a government or nation, the choice is always the same, one or the other. It seems that Jesus is saying ‘you can’t have your cake and eat it too’. In light of this it just doesn’t seem possible to me to give my loyalty to God, and then try and give it to a government at the same time. Jesus also said ” My kingdom is not of this world”. Jesus has a kingdom, and just like an earthly kingdom , I can’t be loyal to two kingdoms at once. It would be impossible to be loyal to the USA and Iran at the same time! It’s the same with being part of the kingdom of God. Jesus calls us to be loyal to his kingdom, and if we have given our loyalty to God’s kingdom, how then can we try and give it to America or any other worldly kingdom?

Supplement on Worldliness covering patriotism and love of country:
James 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15-16 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful p***e of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be t***sformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

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Feb 15, 2019 20:03:36   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Are you a Jehovah Witness?

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Feb 15, 2019 20:07:10   #
Lonewolf
 
rumitoid wrote:
If we love our neighbor and enemy as ourselves, through spirit and grace, we have exercised all that is due to any government. “Our citizenship is in heaven.” (Philippians 3:20)

This is the spoiler: The way of Christ and naturally the follower of Christ is radically different than conventional wisdom and contrary to worldly values. Always.

To say the pledge of Allegiance is anti-Christian. Let's examine the major points of it by definitions:
Pledge: To offer or guarantee by a solemn binding promise, similar to an oath.
Allegiance: [1] the loyalty of a citizen to his or her government or of a subject to his or her sovereign. [2] loyalty or devotion to some person, group, cause, or the like.
F**g:  A usually rectangular piece of fabric of distinctive design that is used as a symbol.(In this case, a symbol for the Republic of the United States of America.)

From these definitions we can understand a couple of things. Making a pledge is basically the same thing as an oath. And, giving your allegiance to something or someone is basically committing your loyalty to that entity. Also, the f**g stands for something more than itself. It stands for the country/government it belongs to. In short, to pledge your allegiance to the f**g means that you are making an oath of loyalty to the country, the United States of America.

#1 Jesus directly and without any qualifiers condemns making an oath to anything for any reason.
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’  BUT I TELL YOU, DO NOT SWEAR AN OATH AT ALL: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.” (Matthew 5:33-37)

#2 Jesus also teaches that men cannot serve two masters at the same time.

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will h**e the one and love the other, or you will be dev**ed to the one and despise the other.” (Matthew 6:24)

We can’t give our loyalty to two masters and be pleasing to both. Whether the choice is between God and money, God and man, God and a government or nation, the choice is always the same, one or the other. It seems that Jesus is saying ‘you can’t have your cake and eat it too’. In light of this it just doesn’t seem possible to me to give my loyalty to God, and then try and give it to a government at the same time. Jesus also said ” My kingdom is not of this world”. Jesus has a kingdom, and just like an earthly kingdom , I can’t be loyal to two kingdoms at once. It would be impossible to be loyal to the USA and Iran at the same time! It’s the same with being part of the kingdom of God. Jesus calls us to be loyal to his kingdom, and if we have given our loyalty to God’s kingdom, how then can we try and give it to America or any other worldly kingdom?

Supplement on Worldliness covering patriotism and love of country:
James 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15-16 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful p***e of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be t***sformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
If we love our neighbor and enemy as ourselves, th... (show quote)



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Feb 15, 2019 20:08:09   #
rumitoid
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Are you a Jehovah Witness?


No. I am just a Christian with a somewhat Anabaptist bent.

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Feb 15, 2019 20:08:40   #
rumitoid
 
Lonewolf wrote:


Thank you LW.

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Feb 15, 2019 20:17:23   #
Rose42
 
There is nothing inherently anti-Christian with being patriotic unless you put your country above God. The pledge of allegiance isn't anti-Christian either unless the intent of the one saying it is. It's all about what's in the heart.

One can be loyal to one's country, employer, family and friends without serving them as a master.

You have misapplied scripture here.

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Feb 15, 2019 20:17:37   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
rumitoid wrote:
No. I am just a Christian with a somewhat Anabaptist bent.


By Christian you mean Protestant right?
Sorry.. Just curious...

Reply
 
 
Feb 15, 2019 20:35:03   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
There is nothing inherently anti-Christian with being patriotic unless you put your country above God. The pledge of allegiance isn't anti-Christian either unless the intent of the one saying it is. It's all about what's in the heart.

One can be loyal to one's country, employer, family and friends without serving them as a master.

You have misapplied scripture here.


Jesus said "BUT I TELL YOU, DO NOT SWEAR AN OATH AT ALL." The pledge of Allegiance is clearly and unequivocally an oath. No exceptions!

"One can be loyal to one's country, employer, family and friends without serving them as a master." Not loyalty, love; never loyalty. All fealty is to God alone.

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Feb 15, 2019 20:43:01   #
rumitoid
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
By Christian you mean Protestant right?
Sorry.. Just curious...


No, not at all. I find such a label highly deceptive. The terribly erroneous and anti-Christian tendency to splinter the faith with the worldly names of men above the name of Christ--such as Lutheran, Methodist, and Calvinist, oh my--divides what should be "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Ephesians4:5) This also goes to the supposed major divisions of Christianity, like Catholic and Protestant.

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Feb 15, 2019 20:44:37   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
rumitoid wrote:
No, not at all. I find such a label highly deceptive. The terribly erroneous and anti-Christian tendency to splinter the faith with the worldly names of men above the name of Christ--such as Lutheran, Methodist, and Calvinist, oh my--divides what should be "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Ephesians4:5) This also goes to the supposed major divisions of Christianity, like Catholic and Protestant.


So you are just a Christian...
Like Archie and I...
Cool...

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Feb 15, 2019 20:46:52   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
rumitoid wrote:
Jesus said "BUT I TELL YOU, DO NOT SWEAR AN OATH AT ALL." The pledge of Allegiance is clearly and unequivocally an oath. No exceptions!

"One can be loyal to one's country, employer, family and friends without serving them as a master." Not loyalty, love; never loyalty. All fealty is to God alone.


Isn't marriage an oath?

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Feb 15, 2019 20:52:59   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
From the writings of Mark Twain...

'A man can be a Christian or a patriot, but he can't legally be a Christian and a patriot -- except in the usual way: one of the two with the mouth, the other with the heart. The spirit of Christianity proclaims the brotherhood of the race and the meaning of that strong word has not been left to guesswork, but made tremendously definite -- the Christian must forgive his brother man all crimes he can imagine and commit, and all insults he can conceive and utter- forgive these injuries how many times? -- seventy times seven -- another way of saying there shall be no limit to this forgiveness. That is the spirit and the law of Christianity. Well -- Patriotism has its laws. And it also is a perfectly definite one, there are not vaguenesses about it. It commands that the brother over the border shall be sharply watched and brought to book every time he does us a hurt or offends us with an insult. Word it as softly as you please, the spirit of patriotism is the spirit of the dog and wolf. The moment there is a misunderstanding about a boundary line or a hamper of fish or some other squalid matter, see patriotism rise, and hear him split the universe with his war-whoop. The spirit of patriotism being in its nature jealous and selfish, is just in man's line, it comes natural to him -- he can live up to all its requirements to the letter; but the spirit of Christianity is not in its entirety possible to him.

The prayers concealed in what I have been saying is, not that patriotism should cease and not that the talk about universal brotherhood should cease, but that the incongruous firm be dissolved and each limb of it be required to t***sact business by itself, for the future.' - Mark Twain's Notebook

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Feb 15, 2019 20:58:05   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
Jesus said "BUT I TELL YOU, DO NOT SWEAR AN OATH AT ALL." The pledge of Allegiance is clearly and unequivocally an oath. No exceptions!

"One can be loyal to one's country, employer, family and friends without serving them as a master." Not loyalty, love; never loyalty. All fealty is to God alone.


No the pledge of allegiance is not an oath that places the country above God unless that is what you do - if it interferes with your commitment to God it is wrong. If it doesn't its not wrong. The pledge of allegiance is about being a good citizen. That's all.

In the verse you cite he is speaking more of flippant oaths and you are misusing it. We are also to serve our employers and obey our leaders unless they go against God's word. There are numerous verses to back that up but I'm tired...

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Feb 15, 2019 21:32:52   #
rumitoid
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
So you are just a Christian...
Like Archie and I...
Cool...


Yes.

Reply
Feb 15, 2019 21:35:57   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
No the pledge of allegiance is not an oath that places the country above God unless that is what you do - if it interferes with your commitment to God it is wrong. If it doesn't its not wrong. The pledge of allegiance is about being a good citizen. That's all.

In the verse you cite he is speaking more of flippant oaths and you are misusing it. We are also to serve our employers and obey our leaders unless they go against God's word. There are numerous verses to back that up but I'm tired...
No the pledge of allegiance is not an oath that pl... (show quote)


Once again, the uncompromising words of Christ: "BUT I TELL YOU, DO NOT SWEAR AN OATH AT ALL." As I clearly outlined in defining the words of the Pledge of Allegiance, it is a forbidden by God oath.

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