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What most Christians do not understand or ignore: it is either being true to America or Christ. There can be no compromise between the two
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Feb 15, 2019 21:51:18   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
Once again, the uncompromising words of Christ: "BUT I TELL YOU, DO NOT SWEAR AN OATH AT ALL." As I clearly outlined in defining the words of the Pledge of Allegiance, it is a forbidden by God oath.


You need to know the context of it, what he meant by oaths and you should know what the pledge of allegiance is for before making that pronouncement.

I could take verses out of context in a similar way to defend the prosperity gospel and I could take numerous ones to show why no one should ever eat pork - even though neither are true.

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Feb 15, 2019 21:52:17   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
rumitoid wrote:
Once again, the uncompromising words of Christ: "BUT I TELL YOU, DO NOT SWEAR AN OATH AT ALL." As I clearly outlined in defining the words of the Pledge of Allegiance, it is a forbidden by God oath.


Marriage?

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Feb 15, 2019 22:33:17   #
rumitoid
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Marriage?


Loving one another is not an oath of allegiance but an exchange of care and respect. Most man may argue that point, lol.

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Feb 15, 2019 22:59:34   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
rumitoid wrote:
Loving one another is not an oath of allegiance but an exchange of care and respect. Most man may argue that point, lol.


But do we not swear an oath to each other...
What does 'I do' mean?
In sickness and in health...
For better or for worse...
Til death sets us free... Sweet freedom...
How is that not an oath?

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Feb 15, 2019 23:10:26   #
rumitoid
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
But do we not swear an oath to each other...
What does 'I do' mean?
In sickness and in health...
For better or for worse...
Til death sets us free... Sweet freedom...
How is that not an oath?


The parameters of love, not an allegiance to another. That the wedding vows may verge on being anti-Christian only means we overlooked the imperatives of love. What love is cannot be defined or outlined. It is as yourself. When another's stomach growls, we are hungry and look to feed. Same with thirst. Or shelter. It is for us we give.

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Feb 15, 2019 23:24:05   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
rumitoid wrote:
The parameters of love, not an allegiance to another. That the wedding vows may verge on being anti-Christian only means we overlooked the imperatives of love. What love is cannot be defined or outlined. It is as yourself. When another's stomach growls, we are hungry and look to feed. Same with thirst. Or shelter. It is for us we give.


Then the vows could be given to Multiple individuals at the same time?

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Feb 15, 2019 23:48:12   #
rumitoid
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
But do we not swear an oath to each other...
What does 'I do' mean?
In sickness and in health...
For better or for worse...
Til death sets us free... Sweet freedom...
How is that not an oath?


Yes, but who says such is right? It entirely misses the point of the heart. It is about worldly things and not the substance of at-one, that is a marriage.

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Feb 15, 2019 23:53:53   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
rumitoid wrote:
Yes, but who says such is right? It entirely misses the point of the heart. It is about worldly things and not the substance of at-one, that is a marriage.


Yet Jesus spoke of marriage...

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Feb 16, 2019 00:02:11   #
rumitoid
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Yet Jesus spoke of marriage...


Lol, yet not as an oath of allegiance to one another. "They shall become one flesh." (Genesis2:4) As one, who is in allegiance to whom?

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Feb 16, 2019 08:53:50   #
Rose42
 
Do you not think it's the intent and what's in the heart that matters? Aside from our proclivity for self deception.

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Feb 16, 2019 12:02:49   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
Do you not think it's the intent and what's in the heart that matters? Aside from our proclivity for self deception.


We can create any well-meaning intent that may offend God. If Jesus said "no oaths ever," it is just wise to take his word for it.

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Feb 16, 2019 13:26:45   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
We can create any well-meaning intent that may offend God. If Jesus said "no oaths ever," it is just wise to take his word for it.


Yes it is wise. We just differ on the type of oath.

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Feb 16, 2019 16:27:01   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
Yes it is wise. We just differ on the type of oath.


Okay, fair enough.

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Feb 16, 2019 16:30:27   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
rumitoid wrote:
If we love our neighbor and enemy as ourselves, through spirit and grace, we have exercised all that is due to any government. “Our citizenship is in heaven.” (Philippians 3:20)

This is the spoiler: The way of Christ and naturally the follower of Christ is radically different than conventional wisdom and contrary to worldly values. Always.

To say the pledge of Allegiance is anti-Christian. Let's examine the major points of it by definitions:
Pledge: To offer or guarantee by a solemn binding promise, similar to an oath.
Allegiance: [1] the loyalty of a citizen to his or her government or of a subject to his or her sovereign. [2] loyalty or devotion to some person, group, cause, or the like.
F**g:  A usually rectangular piece of fabric of distinctive design that is used as a symbol.(In this case, a symbol for the Republic of the United States of America.)

From these definitions we can understand a couple of things. Making a pledge is basically the same thing as an oath. And, giving your allegiance to something or someone is basically committing your loyalty to that entity. Also, the f**g stands for something more than itself. It stands for the country/government it belongs to. In short, to pledge your allegiance to the f**g means that you are making an oath of loyalty to the country, the United States of America.

#1 Jesus directly and without any qualifiers condemns making an oath to anything for any reason.
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’  BUT I TELL YOU, DO NOT SWEAR AN OATH AT ALL: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.” (Matthew 5:33-37)

#2 Jesus also teaches that men cannot serve two masters at the same time.

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will h**e the one and love the other, or you will be dev**ed to the one and despise the other.” (Matthew 6:24)

We can’t give our loyalty to two masters and be pleasing to both. Whether the choice is between God and money, God and man, God and a government or nation, the choice is always the same, one or the other. It seems that Jesus is saying ‘you can’t have your cake and eat it too’. In light of this it just doesn’t seem possible to me to give my loyalty to God, and then try and give it to a government at the same time. Jesus also said ” My kingdom is not of this world”. Jesus has a kingdom, and just like an earthly kingdom , I can’t be loyal to two kingdoms at once. It would be impossible to be loyal to the USA and Iran at the same time! It’s the same with being part of the kingdom of God. Jesus calls us to be loyal to his kingdom, and if we have given our loyalty to God’s kingdom, how then can we try and give it to America or any other worldly kingdom?

Supplement on Worldliness covering patriotism and love of country:
James 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15-16 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful p***e of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be t***sformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
If we love our neighbor and enemy as ourselves, th... (show quote)
Note: this forum has a section called Faith, Religion, Spirituality where members can preach, sermonize, or proselytize.

I don't believe Love inspired you to post this condemnation of America and its loyal citizens. Your attempt to do so opens the door to many questions regarding your motives, and to base your sermonizing on the teachings of Jesus Christ is blasphemous. If you are totally committed to serving God sans the trappings of earthly life and without embracing good stewardship of God's creation, then get off your high horse and act like it.

Every faculty you have, your power of thinking or of moving your limbs from moment to moment, is given you by God. If you dev**ed every moment of your whole life exclusively to His service, you could not give Him anything that was not in a sense His own already.
C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

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Feb 16, 2019 16:44:01   #
bahmer
 
Rose42 wrote:
There is nothing inherently anti-Christian with being patriotic unless you put your country above God. The pledge of allegiance isn't anti-Christian either unless the intent of the one saying it is. It's all about what's in the heart.

One can be loyal to one's country, employer, family and friends without serving them as a master.

You have misapplied scripture here.


Amen and Amen

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