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"To be just and righteous."
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May 1, 2014 10:17:17   #
Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE
 
rumitoid wrote:
I did not write that article or the other one.


You quoted them for what purpose?

I suspect because you wished to propagate the twisted concepts contained therein.

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May 1, 2014 11:37:58   #
Singularity
 
rumitoid wrote:

It would be nice to pick and choose what we like and feel we can do out of the Bible; unfortunately it is one of those all or nothing things.

I pick and choose all the time! And its obvious most Christians do as well. There are practical and philosophical teachings that I consider very valid amongst the more objectionable passages. Since many bible passages are well studied and well known, it is frequently seen that I, an atheist, quote the text of scriptural teachings since the wording frequently activates in the Christian reader a detailed recognition of the concept I am trying to communicate. But, it is quite possible to understand and live moral precepts independent of the bible or religion.
In fact, to act morally, because you are promised a reward (heaven) or to avoid punishment (hell) is NOT taking a moral position; it is a s***e, obeying its master.
I believe that be "just and righteous," a moral act must be undertaken precisely because it is recognized as moral and thus is its own reward.

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May 1, 2014 11:44:43   #
Singularity
 
Augustus Greatorex wrote:
You quoted them for what purpose?

I suspect because you wished to propagate the twisted concepts contained therein.


Can you explain more about what you mean by twisted concepts? I understand the concepts the articles describe, but what is twisted? And how?

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May 1, 2014 12:10:53   #
Armageddun Loc: The show me state
 
rumitoid wrote:
Cut and paste from http://www.nij.gov/topics/courts/restorative-justice/Pages/welcome.aspx

For some time now there has been growing dissatisfaction with the justice system. Citizens feel disconnected, victims are dissatisfied, and those working in the system are frustrated. Policymakers are increasingly concerned about the burgeoning cost of justice in the face of this discontent and the high rates of recidivism that exist.
Over the past decades, there has been growing interest in new approaches to justice, which involve the community and focus on the victim.
The current system, in which crime is considered an act against the State, works on a premise that largely ignores the victim and the community that is hurt most by crime. Instead, it focuses on punishing offenders without forcing them to face the impact of their crimes.
Restorative justice principles offer more inclusive processes and reorient the goals of justice. Restorative justice has been finding a receptive audience, as it creates common ground which accommodates the goals of many constituencies and provides a collective focus. The guiding principles of restorative justice are: [1]
1. Crime is an offense against human relationships.
2. Victims and the community are central to justice processes.
3. The first priority of justice processes is to assist victims.
4. The second priority is to restore the community, to the degree possible.
5. The offender has personal responsibility to victims and to the community for crimes committed.
6. Stakeholders share responsibilities for restorative justice through partnerships for action.
7. The offender will develop improved competency and understanding as a result of the restorative justice experience.
Cut and paste from http://www.nij.gov/topics/court... (show quote)


There is a principle found in Joshua 5:13-15.
Jesus teaching on turning the other cheek results not in weakness but "Taking control." The world seems to think that a Christian being "Passive" is a sign of weakness. Not true. When they were stoning Stephen, as he was dying he said, Father lay not this sin to their account."

Whose account would it be laid on if not the k**lers? He was saying, I chose not to condemn them, in fact I cannot condemn them, but I will turn them over to the one who judges righteously. He was asking God to lay their sin of k*****g him on Jesus account. Jesus paid for all sin when he died for sin on the cross.

God does not chose sides He comes to take charge.

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May 1, 2014 12:22:58   #
Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE
 
Singularity wrote:
Can you explain more about what you mean by twisted concepts? I understand the concepts the articles describe, but what is twisted? And how?


Justice is application of law.

The argument presented is a bending of justice to mean law. Law is written rules. What the articles are discussing are the intent of laws, while misrepresenting this as justice.

Justice does not mean fulfilling the intent behind laws. Justice is applying what is law, regardless of whether it fulfills the intent.

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May 1, 2014 12:53:49   #
Singularity
 
Augustus Greatorex wrote:
Justice is application of law.

The argument presented is a bending of justice to mean law. Law is written rules. What the articles are discussing are the intent of laws, while misrepresenting this as justice.

Justice does not mean fulfilling the intent behind laws. Justice is applying what is law, regardless of whether it fulfills the intent.

Your definition is correct as far as it goes, but it is incomplete. If you Google the word for its definition, you will see there is more to the concept than what you have described. And that the previous argument is valid as it flows from the complete definition.

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May 1, 2014 13:45:39   #
Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE
 
Singularity wrote:
Your definition is correct as far as it goes, but it is incomplete. If you Google the word for its definition, you will see there is more to the concept than what you have described. And that the previous argument is valid as it flows from the complete definition.


I'm not in the mood to explain why you are mistaken.

In the article the intended definition cannot be any other than application of law. It is not talking about any other possible definition.

You want to blur various definitions together, but that is not how English works. You choose one definition, replace every instance of that word with that definition. There may be accidentals, where a word is used with different intended meanings, but there is generally a one for one ratio of words to meanings.

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May 1, 2014 18:11:30   #
jay-are
 
Singularity wrote:
I believe that to be "just and righteous," a moral act must be undertaken precisely because it is recognized as moral and thus is its own reward.


I like that statement, and I would like to discuss it more. I want to ask you about it tomorrow.

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May 1, 2014 18:31:09   #
Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI
 
Augustus Greatorex wrote:
I'm not in the mood to explain why you are mistaken.

In the article the intended definition cannot be any other than application of law. It is not talking about any other possible definition.

You want to blur various definitions together, but that is not how English works. You choose one definition, replace every instance of that word with that definition. There may be accidentals, where a word is used with different intended meanings, but there is generally a one for one ratio of words to meanings.
I'm not in the mood to explain why you are mistake... (show quote)


Some where in you words & the way they are put together is symbolic of what much of our problems in life are about.

Not that I find what you say is wrong. I think what I am saying is the way words are put together mean something a bit different between different people.

If we each were to express our self with different sets of words we may get to a point where we both would be in agreement.

When we just have thoughts in our heads we may see things quite clear. When we speak to others we may have to change the words we express our self's with. When we are looking people in the face as we talk we can change the words we are using to better understand each other.

Putting words on paper becomes a greater challenge because you lack the facial feed back that lets you see just which part of what you are saying is a problem.

So what you were saying might well have been a very correct way of saying it. But not seeing what was stated earlier I am lost as to what the statement means.

So what I think I was getting at is I think the misunderstanding of what people write is key to much of the disagreements we have with each other.

If this in any way made sense to you I would be pleased to hear from you. If not sense at least some idea of what I am getting at.

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May 1, 2014 22:45:40   #
Singularity
 
Floyd Brown wrote:
Some where in you words & the way they are put together is symbolic of what much of our problems in life are about.

Not that I find what you say is wrong. I think what I am saying is the way words are put together mean something a bit different between different people.

If we each were to express our self with different sets of words we may get to a point where we both would be in agreement.

When we just have thoughts in our heads we may see things quite clear. When we speak to others we may have to change the words we express our self's with. When we are looking people in the face as we talk we can change the words we are using to better understand each other.

Putting words on paper becomes a greater challenge because you lack the facial feed back that lets you see just which part of what you are saying is a problem.

So what you were saying might well have been a very correct way of saying it. But not seeing what was stated earlier I am lost as to what the statement means.

So what I think I was getting at is I think the misunderstanding of what people write is key to much of the disagreements we have with each other.

If this in any way made sense to you I would be pleased to hear from you. If not sense at least some idea of what I am getting at.
Some where in you words & the way they are put... (show quote)


I think I understand. We have "tangled threads" before, but I generally agree with a lot of what you write. You couldn't know that because I don't generally comment when I agree, probably like many others at opp. I have noticed you are very precise with your wording and you follow a linear logic like a hound dog on a fresh scent. I on the other hand check out side issues and meander around a subject for a while. You are right we both get to the same destination a lot of the time, but our processing is different and it may seem we are at odds along the way sometimes when we arent.. I suspect next time we seem to disagree I will think about this some more and be able to see both our sides. Of course we may disagree in substantial ways on some issues, but we can be gentle(wo)men about it and still be civil, even friendly!

Thanks for posting that, because what you said and my thinking it through has helped me understand you better. And myself as well.

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May 2, 2014 01:06:49   #
Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI
 
Singularity wrote:
I think I understand. We have "tangled threads" before, but I generally agree with a lot of what you write. You couldn't know that because I don't generally comment when I agree, probably like many others at opp. I have noticed you are very precise with your wording and you follow a linear logic like a hound dog on a fresh scent. I on the other hand check out side issues and meander around a subject for a while. You are right we both get to the same destination a lot of the time, but our processing is different and it may seem we are at odds along the way sometimes when we arent.. I suspect next time we seem to disagree I will think about this some more and be able to see both our sides. Of course we may disagree in substantial ways on some issues, but we can be gentle(wo)men about it and still be civil, even friendly!

Thanks for posting that, because what you said and my thinking it through has helped me understand you better. And myself as well.
I think I understand. We have "tangled thread... (show quote)


Tank you for saying I said some thing that made a bit of sense.

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May 2, 2014 01:18:31   #
Singularity
 
Floyd Brown wrote:
Tank you for saying I said some thing that made a bit of sense.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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May 2, 2014 09:14:22   #
jay-are
 
Singularity wrote:
I believe that to be "just and righteous," a moral act must be undertaken precisely because it is recognized as moral and thus is its own reward.


I would like to ask how one can recognize an act as moral?

I would submit that one cannot. I submit that what is moral is agreed upon by a group of people, and that it cannot be decided by just one person. Once an action is approved by the group, that is what makes it moral. Without the group agreeing to it, it is neither moral nor immoral.

Perhaps what we call immoral is only an action that is not approved of by our group, but it is approved by another group as moral. So if our group has designated that action as immoral, but another group has designated that action as moral, how can we recognize the action itself as moral or immoral?

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May 2, 2014 10:13:54   #
Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI
 
jay-are wrote:
I would like to ask how one can recognize an act as moral?

I would submit that one cannot. I submit that what is moral is agreed upon by a group of people, and that it cannot be decided by just one person. Once an action is approved by the group, that is what makes it moral. Without the group agreeing to it, it is neither moral nor immoral.

Perhaps what we call immoral is only an action that is not approved of by our group, but it is approved by another group as moral. So if our group has designated that action as immoral, but another group has designated that action as moral, how can we recognize the action itself as moral or immoral?
I would like to ask how one can recognize an act a... (show quote)


With human inter actions some actions are good for the group other actions have less value or of bad value.

So groups inter act & become larger groups & what is good for the larger groups becomes the standard.

It is not that we seek to be moral or immoral. We just seek to do the things that are best for the most of the group.

Then we judge that what we are doing as being the better way to do things. Which we label as being moral.

Just putting the words in a different way but hoping that it says much the same thing.

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May 2, 2014 10:23:09   #
Singularity
 
jay-are wrote:
I would like to ask how one can recognize an act as moral?

I would submit that one cannot. I submit that what is moral is agreed upon by a group of people, and that it cannot be decided by just one person. Once an action is approved by the group, that is what makes it moral. Without the group agreeing to it, it is neither moral nor immoral.

Perhaps what we call immoral is only an action that is not approved of by our group, but it is approved by another group as moral. So if our group has designated that action as immoral, but another group has designated that action as moral, how can we recognize the action itself as moral or immoral?
I would like to ask how one can recognize an act a... (show quote)

Over centuries the concept of morality and ethics, good vs evil, has been a slippery one as it falls in the realm of subjective experience. I am by no means an expert or scholar in this arena, but I can offer some musings.

We are born helpless and dependent. At first, we accept external standards and conform to sets of rules based on our culture, society, family, and institutions like religion, law and politics. As we grow and mature and continue to experience life we can either continue to accept an external standard of morality and ethics such as a set of rules and laws or religious principles, or continue to logically question, develop and revise our personal concept of morality. This is not, in my opinion, an either/or proposition but rather a continuum wherein our reliance on one method or the other is ongoing and fluidly changing as we grow and develop new sk**ls and acquire new information.

Different people have different levels of tolerance for change and the need for constant revision versus permanence and possible stagnation. I suspect it is this aspect which gives rise to debate and tension among different individuals and groups.

As far as defining an act as moral or not, I suspect it may be, as has been said of pornography, I can't give you an exact definition, but I know it when I see it.

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