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Creation Vs. Evolution
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Sep 4, 2018 18:35:47   #
pafret Loc: Northeast
 
acknowledgeurma wrote:
I already answered that question, "I am dreaming all this". That being said, I find that when I want some idea of what might happen next in my dream, I get better results paying attention to the "scientists" in my dream than to the "religionists".


Are you sure you are dreaming and not someone else's dream that you are dreaming? If so, prove it.

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Sep 4, 2018 19:18:02   #
Carol Kelly
 
mwdegutis wrote:
God is real.

That which is known about God is evident within man; for God made it evident to him. For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that man is without excuse. Romans 1:19-20


Every morning when I open my eyes I see the wonder of my God. He is the Creator. I need no further evidence than the beauty and the life i see around me. That is my proof.

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Sep 4, 2018 19:26:48   #
acknowledgeurma
 
pafret wrote:
Are you sure you are dreaming and not someone else's dream that you are dreaming? If so, prove it.

Well, I already gave the proof when I first presented my hypothesis: I am dreaming all this.
My proof was based on your statement: "The simplest solution is usually the correct one".
My hypothesis was simpler than yours. QED
Am I sure of this hypothesis? By your logic, I should be.
(Why am I arguing with an apparition in my dream?)

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Sep 4, 2018 20:11:57   #
JW
 
mwdegutis wrote:
The religionist may temporarily settle on "God's mysterious ways" when faced with a conundrum, but their fascination with the subject matter doesn't stop their motivation to "keep digging" to find the glory of God in what they were investigating.


I was waiting for that. It's more effective if you say it than if I do, "to find the glory of God". See, the religious investigator already knows what he is looking to find. The true scientist has no idea what he will find and is freer from preconceptions; perhaps not free, but freer.

This may not seem fair but it will illustrate my point. Please explain to me how a bot fly demonstrates the glory of God.

I can anticipate two possible answers to that. 1) You don't know but clearly it fits into the grand scheme (God's mysterious ways), and 2) It is a result of being expelled from the Garden of Eden and came with the thistles (man's fault/sin). The religionist will invariably fall on one or the other neither of which indicates a questioning mind or anything glorious about God.

Paracites that torture, maim or, k**l their hosts, man or other innocent creatures, demonstrate nothing glorious or loving about an entity that mignt have created them but it says a world of t***h about oportunistic evolution. Can religionists even go there?

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Sep 4, 2018 20:16:31   #
mwdegutis Loc: Illinois
 
acknowledgeurma wrote:
I already answered that question, "I am dreaming all this". That being said, I find that when I want some idea of what might happen next in my dream, I get better results paying attention to the "scientists" in my dream than to the "religionists".

Ahhh, making man your god. Good choice...NOT!

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Sep 4, 2018 20:18:49   #
mwdegutis Loc: Illinois
 
Carol Kelly wrote:
Every morning when I open my eyes I see the wonder of my God. He is the Creator. I need no further evidence than the beauty and the life i see around me. That is my proof.

Good stuff Carol!

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Sep 4, 2018 20:25:52   #
susanblange Loc: USA
 
mwdegutis wrote:
Who says that just because one believes in God that they can't be interested in science?


Science is fact. Fact is T***h. The prophets of the OT had a knowledge of science. Daniel 1:4. "Children in whom was no blemish, but well favored, and sk**lful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science..." God created a Universe of order and subjection to natural laws. The world could not exist without them. God is Energy, and Oxygen is the Life Force.

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Sep 4, 2018 20:37:46   #
pafret Loc: Northeast
 
acknowledgeurma wrote:
Well, I already gave the proof when I first presented my hypothesis: I am dreaming all this.
My proof was based on your statement: "The simplest solution is usually the correct one".
My hypothesis was simpler than yours. QED
Am I sure of this hypothesis? By your logic, I should be.
(Why am I arguing with an apparition in my dream?)


Well if it is my word you rely on then you are the dream. Go away!

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Sep 4, 2018 20:39:17   #
pafret Loc: Northeast
 
susanblange wrote:
Science is fact. Fact is T***h. The prophets of the OT had a knowledge of science. Daniel 1:4. "Children in whom was no blemish, but well favored, and sk**lful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science..." God created a Universe of order and subjection to natural laws. The world could not exist without them. God is Energy, and Oxygen is the Life Force.



True usually, but not the only t***h and rarely absolute t***h.

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Sep 4, 2018 20:41:01   #
JRumeryjr
 
pafret wrote:
Science vs. the Big Bang & Evolution: A Concise Look
by Jeff Miller, Ph.D.



[NOTE: The following article is a special section within the Apologetics Press study Bible, currently scheduled to be released in 2020. In order to stay in keeping with the “concise” approach, the typical references have been omitted. The reader is referred to our Web site and monthly journal Reason & Revelation for citation of the many relevant articles on these subjects.]

Many within Christendom have attempted to create compatibility between naturalistic evolution (i.e., cosmic evolution—the Big Bang Theory plus Darwinian Evolution) and Scripture. Before even spending time attempting to reconcile Scripture with such theories, however, one should first consider whether evolution is even a rational scientific theory to begin with—supported by the evidence.

According to the Big Bang Theory, all matter and energy that comprise the Universe were originally in an infinitely dense “spec” (a singularity) roughly 14 billion years ago. That “cosmic egg” expanded faster than the speed of light for well less than one second (i.e., “inflation”), and now continues to expand indefinitely. Particles began forming in the first few seconds, atoms after 380,000 years, the first stars after 200-300 million years, and our solar system and Earth roughly nine billion years later.

According to the secular model, some 800 million years later (3.8 billion years ago), life sprang into existence on Earth and Darwinian evolution began. The initial single-celled organisms eventually evolved into multicellular organisms (and the earliest plants), which eventually evolved into invertebrates, which then evolved into vertebrates. Vertebrate fish evolved into amphibians, then reptiles, which gave rise to dinosaurs and mammals. Dinosaurs evolved into birds, and mammals ultimately evolved into primates. The genus homo, within the primate group, arrived some 2-3 million years ago, ultimately evolving into humans.

There are many problems with this “just so” story as proposed by naturalists. Here are 15 of them, some of which apply to naturalistic evolution exclusively, and some to both naturalistic and “supernaturalistic” evolution:

The origin of laws of science: At the heart of science is man’s discovery of the laws of nature that govern the Universe, telling it how to behave. These laws exist, and yet there is absolutely no evidence from nature that such laws can “write” themselves into existence. One cannot be a naturalist and believe such a thing happens, since there is no evidence that such a thing could happen in nature. To believe that the laws of science could write themselves would require a blind “faith.”

The origin of matter/energy: Not only would the laws that govern the Universe have to create themselves, but the physical material of the Universe would have to either be eternal or create itself. The Big Bang model asserts that the Universe began with all matter/energy in one place and it rapidly expanded eventually forming the Universe. Those who believe the matter of the Universe was the result of a quantum fluctuation must also believe in a quantum field of energy that “fluctuated.” No naturalistic model explains the origin of all matter/energy, but rather, what happened to that already existing material at the beginning. Again, upon examination of the scientific evidence from the natural realm, one discovers three relevant laws of science which prohibit a natural origin of the Universe. The First Law of Thermodynamics indicates that in nature, matter and energy do not create themselves from nothing. Energy can be converted into matter (and vice versa), but the sum total amount of matter/energy in the Universe must be constant. Either matter/energy in the natural realm were created by Something outside of the natural realm, or matter/energy are eternal. Few cosmologists today would accept the latter in light of the findings of the Second Law of Thermodynamics—entropy happens. We are steadily running out of usable energy—that is, the Universe is “wearing out” or “running down,” implying that it could not have existed forever or we would long since have exhausted all usable energy and be in a state of Universal heat death. The Law of Causality—perhaps the most fundamental of all scientific laws—indicates that every effect that we see in the natural realm always has a cause. Since the Universe is an effect, it requires a cause. Since matter/energy could not exist forever or create itself in a natural way, the Cause must be outside of (i.e., super-) nature.

The Horizon/Flatness problems: Several decades ago cosmologists observed that the entire Universe appears to have the same temperature, implying that there had to be sufficient time for every location in the Universe to have exchanged its energy with other locations and come to equilibrium. Some places in the Universe, however, are too far from each other to have had time to exchange their energy if the Big Bang model is correct. This problem has been termed the Horizon problem. Further, based on the Big Bang model, if the Universe is billions of years old, when we examine the composition of energy in the Universe, the ratio of gravitational potential energy to kinetic energy in the Universe (i.e., W) should be either zero or enormous if the Universe is as old as is claimed. The evidence, however, indicates that W is estimated to be close to the very unlikely number one, making the Universe very close to “flat” in curvature (rather than “closed” or “open”). That discovery would seem to imply that either the Universe is not actually billions of years old, or that W was initially exactly one to within 15 significant figures—an occurrence so unlikely that it would appear that the Universe was finely tuned (i.e., designed).

A lack of evidence for inflation: Inflation was invented, in part, to resolve the Horizon and Flatness problems and yet, to date, there is absolutely no evidence for inflation. Even if it were true, other problems would exist, such as what caused inflation and what caused it to stop? Although inflation is essential for the Big Bang model, accepting it amounts to grasping an irrational blind “faith,” and ironically, leading naturalistic cosmologists acknowledge that fact. Inflation theory is not science.

A lack of evidence for dark energy: Big Bang theorists see the evidence for Universal expansion—a key observation undergirding the theory—but cannot (with their model) explain why the expansion of space appears to be accelerating, rather than decelerating, as would be expected based on the Big Bang model. In an attempt to be consistent with the blind “faith” theme of modern cosmology, dark energy was invented to attempt to explain the accelerated expansion. An enormous “fudge factor,” so to speak, was added to the cosmological equation. Presumably, an unknown, unobserved and possibly unobservable energy in space—an energy thought to make up 73% of the Universe, but which we do not know exists—is driving the accelerated expansion. The Big Bang model does not adequately explain the evidence.
The smoothness problem: The Big Bang model relies on the fundamental assumption known as the Cosmological Principle—the idea that the Universe is uniform and homogeneous (i.e., spread out evenly). Once again, however, the actual observable evidence indicates that the Universe is not smooth, but rather, is “clumpy” (e.g., there exist stars, galaxies, clusters of galaxies, etc. that clump rather than spread out). The Universe is characterized by deviations from homogeneity. The Universe should be smooth if the Big Bang is true, but it is not.

Missing antimatter: Energy can be t***sformed into matter, according to the First Law of Thermodynamics, but when it happens, an equal amount of antimatter (basically normal matter with a reversed charge on its particles) is always produced—without exception according to the laboratory evidence. So if the Big Bang is true and energy was t***sformed into all of the matter of the Universe at the beginning, there should have been an equal amount of matter and antimatter produced—but there clearly was not, or else when the two touched, they would have been immediately destroyed, releasing their energy. Today the Universe is virtually completely composed of regular matter. (Apparently the Big Bang did not occur.)
The Fermi Paradox: If the Big Bang model is true, it would be inconceivable that other life—even advanced life—does not exist somewhere in the Universe with its billions of stars and even, presumably, more planets. Such life should have long ago colonized our region of the Universe, and yet there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of extraterrestrials. If one predicts that aliens should exist and should have been noticed by humans by now if the Big Bang Theory is true and that prediction fails upon examining the evidence, then the Big Bang Theory has been effectively falsified by the evidence.

The Anthropic Principle: The “Anthropic Principle” is the term used by leading cosmologists to describe the incredibly fine-tuned nature of the Universe. Mounting evidence indicates that it seems to have been perfectly designed for life on Earth to exist. In order to by-pass the supernatural implication of the scientific evidence for design (i.e., that there must be a Designer for the Universe), many cosmologists are suggesting that our Universe is one of an infinite number within a “multiverse,” and we “happen” to live in the right one. Other cosmologists, however, point out that such a hypothesis not only requires a blind faith (having no evidence to support it, making it irrational), but it merely “moves the goal posts.” The sleight-of-hand only begs the question: what would cause the multiverse to exist—God?

Origin of life: Even if the Big Bang happened, at some point, non-living substances had to spontaneously come to life. When we examine the evidence, however, we find that in nature, life always and exclusively comes from life—a fundamental biological rule known as the Law of Biogenesis. In order to be a naturalist, one must ignore the mountain of scientific evidence for biogenesis and blindly believe that something unnatural occurred at least once (i.e., abiogenesis). In short, one must cease to be a naturalist and become a super-naturalist like us. The problem of the first life spontaneously animating, however, is greater than is perhaps often considered. The first organism could not be simple, since it required an operating program to control its functions and also had to be equipped with a replication system, or its death would have promptly ended its evolutionary journey before it began. Absolutely no evidence exists that such a “just so” story could occur.

Darwinian evolution (i.e., macroevolution) lacks solid evidence: After the hypothetical, original life spontaneously animated, Darwinists contend that it eventually evolved into all forms of life we see today. In order for a theory to be rational, however, it must have sufficient evidence to support it. Upon examination of the alleged evidences for evolution, however, they are found, without exception, to be either erroneous (e.g., alleged embryonic recapitulation; horse and whale evolution in the fossil record; vestigial organs and genes; t***sitional forms; human/chimp c********e fusion; mitochondrial DNA; and radio-isotope dating techniques); irrelevant (e.g., natural se******n, which explains the survival of the fittest, not their arrival; geographic distribution; evidences of microevolution, like “Darwin’s finches,” English peppered moths, the evolution of bacterial antibiotic resistance, epigenetics, and fruit fly evolution, which represent mere diversification within already existing kinds rather than evidence of evolution across phylogenic boundaries into distinctly different kinds of creatures); or inadequate (e.g., homologous structures and genetic similarities). Macroevolution is found to be merely a wishful dream conjured by naturalists, rather than a conclusion warranted by the actual scientific evidence.

Origin of genetic information: A single-celled organism is substantially different from a human being, genetically speaking. In order for macroevolution to happen—evolving a single-celled organism into a distinctly different organism—nature must have a mechanism to generate new raw material or genetic information in living organisms over time. No such mechanism is known to exist. Rather, the observable evidence indicates that information is always and exclusively the product of a sender or mind. It is not generated spontaneously from nothing. Neo-Darwinists speculate that genetic mutations could be the mechanism that drives change, but according to the observable evidence, genetic mutations do not create new raw material. It’s not rocket science: without a mechanism to evolve a creature, a creature cannot evolve.
Science vs. the Big Bang & Evolution: A Concis... (show quote)


Can both be subservient?

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Sep 4, 2018 20:44:43   #
JW
 
susanblange wrote:
Science is fact. Fact is T***h. The prophets of the OT had a knowledge of science. Daniel 1:4. "Children in whom was no blemish, but well favored, and sk**lful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science..." God created a Universe of order and subjection to natural laws. The world could not exist without them. God is Energy, and Oxygen is the Life Force.


FYI, oxygen is a poison.

"Unbeknown to most people, too much oxygen can be toxic. After several days of breathing nothing but pure oxygen, you’d begin to experience nausea, dizziness, muscle twitches, and convulsions. You might even die. Ironically, too much oxygen actually inhibits ventilation and ends up slowing down the delivery of oxygen to your body’s tissues.
Can Oxygen Be Toxic? | A Moment of Science - Indiana ...
indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/can-oxygen-b…"

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Sep 4, 2018 21:01:29   #
susanblange Loc: USA
 
JW wrote:
FYI, oxygen is a poison.

"Unbeknown to most people, too much oxygen can be toxic. After several days of breathing nothing but pure oxygen, you’d begin to experience nausea, dizziness, muscle twitches, and convulsions. You might even die. Ironically, too much oxygen actually inhibits ventilation and ends up slowing down the delivery of oxygen to your body’s tissues.
Can Oxygen Be Toxic? | A Moment of Science - Indiana ...
indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/can-oxygen-b…"
FYI, oxygen is a poison. br br "Unbeknown to... (show quote)


Too much of anything is not good. It does not negate the fact that Oxygen is required to sustain life. We breathe to absorb Oxygen, called "the breath of life". Water is a requirement for life and it is made partly of Oxygen, H2O, called "the fountain of living waters". Blood carries the Oxygen absorbed from the lungs to the cells of the body, called "[blood] the life of the flesh". Spirits are made from wind and fire, requiring Oxygen to keep the flame burning.

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Sep 4, 2018 21:05:02   #
mwdegutis Loc: Illinois
 
susanblange wrote:
Science is fact. Fact is T***h. The prophets of the OT had a knowledge of science. Daniel 1:4. "Children in whom was no blemish, but well favored, and sk**lful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science..." God created a Universe of order and subjection to natural laws. The world could not exist without them. God is Energy, and Oxygen is the Life Force.

T***h is a person. His name is Jesus Christ.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the t***h, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6

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Sep 4, 2018 21:06:49   #
pafret Loc: Northeast
 
JW wrote:
FYI, oxygen is a poison.

"Unbeknown to most people, too much oxygen can be toxic. After several days of breathing nothing but pure oxygen, you’d begin to experience nausea, dizziness, muscle twitches, and convulsions. You might even die. Ironically, too much oxygen actually inhibits ventilation and ends up slowing down the delivery of oxygen to your body’s tissues.
Can Oxygen Be Toxic? | A Moment of Science - Indiana ...
indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/can-oxygen-b…"
FYI, oxygen is a poison. br br "Unbeknown to... (show quote)


Excess of almost anything including, water can be toxic. The trick is to determine what is the useful amount and what constitutes excess. A single whiff of Mercury vapor can be fata; why you would want to sniff any of it is beyond me. Salt in the right amounts is absolutely necessary for regulation of fluids in cells but too much can lead to serious diseases.

This seems to be a sort of Golden Rule, everything in moderation.

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Sep 4, 2018 21:07:48   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
A Case for a Creator (Full Documentary). Most of what you'll see here is SCIENCE and SCIENTISTS. The producer was an atheist.

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