Check out topic: Biden Blocks Release Of His Special Counsel Interview
Purgatory: . . . What Protestant Fundamentalists Fail to Understand
Dec 13, 2018 21:34:15 #
Doc110 wrote:
Answer the Question first, then I will answer yours.
I assume that's how it should work mwdegutis
I assume that's how it should work mwdegutis
They will go to eternal damnation.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Psalm 9:17
The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, all the nations that forget God.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Matthew 13:50
And throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Proverbs 15:24
The path of life leads upward for the prudent to keep them from going down to the realm of the dead.
Proverbs 23:14
Punish them with the rod and save them from death.
Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Proverbs 15:11
Death and Destruction lie open before the LORD— how much more do human hearts!
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
Revelation 20:13-14
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Ezekiel 18:20
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Don't give me a cut and paste novel in your reply Doc.
Dec 13, 2018 21:49:45 #
mwdegutis
I ask a question then you ask a question, or it's the end of the discussion, we don't start going off on tangents here.
You did not answer my question . . .
Or is that how you, want to play or end the Game.
I don't like coy or disingenuous people.
That's the game of life with other people, treat them fairly, and you get treated fairly, it's called reciprocity, or the Lord's Golden rule. . .
So where does the soul reside in the state of sin? There are only a few that get the v line to heaven . . .
Because I don't believe The Protestant theory.
Once saved, always saved. And you don't get a direct path to heaven.
Because we all sin.
Then where does the sinful soul reside ?
Because the soul needs to be purified ?
And here are examples of where the sinful soul resides ?
1.Gehenna,
2. Hell,
3. Hades,
4. The land Beyond,
5. Sheol,
6. Purgatory,
Once the sin has been purified from all taint of sin, then it goes to heaven or if the soul can't be purified it goes to hell, don't you agree ?
But where does the soul reside in the meantime, can't be heaven ?
Take your pick, provide biblical reference for your decision ?
I ask a question then you ask a question, or it's the end of the discussion, we don't start going off on tangents here.
You did not answer my question . . .
Or is that how you, want to play or end the Game.
I don't like coy or disingenuous people.
That's the game of life with other people, treat them fairly, and you get treated fairly, it's called reciprocity, or the Lord's Golden rule. . .
So where does the soul reside in the state of sin? There are only a few that get the v line to heaven . . .
Because I don't believe The Protestant theory.
Once saved, always saved. And you don't get a direct path to heaven.
Because we all sin.
Then where does the sinful soul reside ?
Because the soul needs to be purified ?
And here are examples of where the sinful soul resides ?
1.Gehenna,
2. Hell,
3. Hades,
4. The land Beyond,
5. Sheol,
6. Purgatory,
Once the sin has been purified from all taint of sin, then it goes to heaven or if the soul can't be purified it goes to hell, don't you agree ?
But where does the soul reside in the meantime, can't be heaven ?
Take your pick, provide biblical reference for your decision ?
mwdegutis wrote:
In that state, it is a unequivocal NO!
In that state, it is a unequivocal NO!
Dec 13, 2018 22:37:39 #
TexaCan
Loc: Homeward Bound!
Doc110 wrote:
mwdegutis br br I ask a question then you ask a q... (show quote)
Did Jesus tell one of the criminals hanging next to him that he would have to be purified before he could be with him in Paradise later that day? Nope! Did He say anything about someone having to pay to get him out of Purgatory? Nope!
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43
The Bible does not teach that our sins must be purified after death! Jesus paid the price for all those who are saved!
Galatians 3:13-15 Ephesians 1:7 1 Peter 2:24 1 Corinthians 6:20 Romans 5:8
Purgatory was nothing more than a means to make money for the Church’s coffers! To bad you refuse the promise made by Jesus Christ Himself instead of greedy men!
Check out topic: CNN's Fareed Zakaria condescends 'to be honest about reality'
Dec 13, 2018 23:58:31 #
TexaCan,
Butt out of the conversation its between myself and mwdegutis.
And you have this anti-Catholic vehement streak. Where do they teach you this fundamentalist baptist hog-wallop compost crap at Church and from the minster.
Your sick TexaCan, deadly sick, "Pay to get out of Purgatory, your nuts . . .
And to top it off you can't answer the question either . . . Paradise is not heaven, in all accountings and definitions in the Bible . . .
So I'll pose the question a third time ?
And will add paradise to the list of 7 places where a sinful soul resided before purification . . .
So where does the soul reside in the state of sin? There are only a few that get the v line to heaven . . .
Because I don't believe The Protestant theory.
Once saved, always saved. And you don't get a direct path to heaven.
Because we all sin.
Then where does the sinful soul reside ?
Because the soul needs to be purified ? before it goes to heaven and be with our Lord Jesus Christ and the Saints . . .
And here are examples of where the sinful soul resides ? Where does the soul reside, this is not a trick question ?
Give your best opinion ? And tell me why.
1.Gehenna,
2. Hell,
3. Hades,
4. The land Beyond,
5. Sheol,
6. Purgatory
7. Paradise, because the thief was also murder who committed grave sin . . . I don't think he gets to go to heaven right away.
8. What about the soul that has not been baptized, can that soul get into heaven ? Where does his soul resides ?
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Once the sin has been purified from all taint of sin, then it goes to heaven or if the soul can't be purified it goes to hell, don't you agree ?
But where does the soul reside in the meantime, can't be heaven ?
Take your pick, provide biblical reference for your decision ?
1. Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
2. Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
3. Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
4. Malachi 3:1-18
“Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts.
But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears?
For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.
Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years. “Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts. ...
5. 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
6. 2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
7. Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
8. Micah 4:12
But they do not know the thoughts of the Lord; they do not understand his plan, that he has gathered them as sheaves to the threshing floor.
9. 1 John 1:7-9
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
11. 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
12. Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
13. Proverbs 17:3
The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts.
14. 1 Peter 1:7
So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
15. Zechariah 13:9
And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
16. Psalm 66:10
For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.
17. Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.
18. Revelation 3:18
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.
19. 1 Peter 4:12
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.
20. 1 Peter 1:6-7
In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
21. Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
22. 1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
23. Acts 3:19
Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,
24. Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
25. Matthew 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
26. Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
27. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
28. Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...
29. 2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
30. 1 Corinthians 3:13
Each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
31. Revelation 20:13-14
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
32.Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
33. Hebrews 12:23
And to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
34. Mark 9:49
For everyone will be salted with fire.
35. 2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
36. 1 Peter 1:7
So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
37. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
And to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
38. 1 Thessalonians 4:13
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
39. 2 Corinthians 7:1
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.
40. Acts 2:31
He foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
41. Romans 14:10-12
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Butt out of the conversation its between myself and mwdegutis.
And you have this anti-Catholic vehement streak. Where do they teach you this fundamentalist baptist hog-wallop compost crap at Church and from the minster.
Your sick TexaCan, deadly sick, "Pay to get out of Purgatory, your nuts . . .
And to top it off you can't answer the question either . . . Paradise is not heaven, in all accountings and definitions in the Bible . . .
So I'll pose the question a third time ?
And will add paradise to the list of 7 places where a sinful soul resided before purification . . .
So where does the soul reside in the state of sin? There are only a few that get the v line to heaven . . .
Because I don't believe The Protestant theory.
Once saved, always saved. And you don't get a direct path to heaven.
Because we all sin.
Then where does the sinful soul reside ?
Because the soul needs to be purified ? before it goes to heaven and be with our Lord Jesus Christ and the Saints . . .
And here are examples of where the sinful soul resides ? Where does the soul reside, this is not a trick question ?
Give your best opinion ? And tell me why.
1.Gehenna,
2. Hell,
3. Hades,
4. The land Beyond,
5. Sheol,
6. Purgatory
7. Paradise, because the thief was also murder who committed grave sin . . . I don't think he gets to go to heaven right away.
8. What about the soul that has not been baptized, can that soul get into heaven ? Where does his soul resides ?
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Once the sin has been purified from all taint of sin, then it goes to heaven or if the soul can't be purified it goes to hell, don't you agree ?
But where does the soul reside in the meantime, can't be heaven ?
Take your pick, provide biblical reference for your decision ?
1. Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
2. Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
3. Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
4. Malachi 3:1-18
“Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts.
But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears?
For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.
Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years. “Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts. ...
5. 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
6. 2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
7. Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
8. Micah 4:12
But they do not know the thoughts of the Lord; they do not understand his plan, that he has gathered them as sheaves to the threshing floor.
9. 1 John 1:7-9
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
11. 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
12. Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
13. Proverbs 17:3
The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts.
14. 1 Peter 1:7
So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
15. Zechariah 13:9
And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
16. Psalm 66:10
For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.
17. Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.
18. Revelation 3:18
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.
19. 1 Peter 4:12
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.
20. 1 Peter 1:6-7
In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
21. Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
22. 1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
23. Acts 3:19
Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,
24. Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
25. Matthew 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
26. Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
27. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
28. Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...
29. 2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
30. 1 Corinthians 3:13
Each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
31. Revelation 20:13-14
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
32.Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
33. Hebrews 12:23
And to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
34. Mark 9:49
For everyone will be salted with fire.
35. 2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
36. 1 Peter 1:7
So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
37. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
And to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
38. 1 Thessalonians 4:13
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
39. 2 Corinthians 7:1
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.
40. Acts 2:31
He foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
41. Romans 14:10-12
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
TexaCan wrote:
br br Bullshi-t, thats not an answer it's an opi... (show quote)
Dec 14, 2018 00:11:29 #
07/29/2018 Classic Catholic Reflections on Indulgences
Dave Armstrong
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2018/07/classic-catholic-reflections-on-indulgences.html
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/author/davearmstrong
A. Servant of God John A. Hardon, S .J.
‘The remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned, which the follower of Christ with the proper dispositions and under certain determined conditions acquires through the intervention of the Church, which, as minister of the redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the satisfaction won by Christ and the saints.’
(Pope Paul VI, Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences).
As originally understood, an indulgence was a mitigation of the severe canonical penances imposed on the faithful for grave sins . . .
The measure of how efficacious an indulgenced work is depends on two things: the supernatural charity with which the indulgenced task is done, and the perfection of the task itself . . .
Indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of suffrage, asking God to remit their sufferings if they are still in purgatory.”
(Pocket Catholic Dictionary, New York: Doubleday Image, 1980, 193-194)
Indulgences presuppose:
A retributive basis for divine justice, i.e., that sins must have a penalty either on earth or in purgatory, even (it may be) after the sinner has been reconciled with God by sacramental absolution;
The existence of the `treasury of merits,’ i.e., the infinite merits of Christ, together with the merits of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints, which the Church possesses in virtue of the communion of saints;
The belief that the Church, by her power of jurisdiction, has the right of administering the benefit of these merits in consideration of the prayers or other pious works undertaken by the faithful. (The Catholic Catechism, Garden City, New York: Doubleday, 1975, 561-562)
B. Peter Kreeft
The origin of the Reformation is often said to be Luther’s act of nailing ninety-five theses against the sale of indulgences to the door of the church in Wittenberg.
This event is celebrated as Reformation Day (October 31, 1517) . . .
But the scandal of selling indulgences was only the catalyst, not the cause, of the Reformation.
The Church soon cleaned up its act and forbade the sale of indulgences at the Council of Trent, agreeing with Luther on this point.
But one does not split the Church over a practice; one splits the Church over a doctrine, for the Church can change its practice but never its doctrine.
To change a practice, one stays in the Church; to change a doctrine, one must start a new Church.
(Fundamentals of the Faith, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988, 278)
C. Blessed Pope Paul VI
[The treasury of the Church] is not like a sum of goods which were amassed in the course of the centuries after the manner of material riches.
Rather, it consists in the infinite and inexhaustible value that the atonement and merits of Christ, the Lord, have before God . . .
The treasury of the Church is Christ the Redeemer himself insofar as the satisfaction and merits of his work of redemption have their permanence and validity in him.
Furthermore, the truly immeasurable, inexhaustible, and always new value that the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of all the saints possess before God also belong to this treasury.
They have followed in the footsteps of Christ, the Lord; by his grace, they have sanctified themselves and completed the work entrusted to them by the Father.
Thus have they worked their own salvation and contributed also to the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the mystical body. (Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences: 1967)
D. James Cardinal Gibbons
The prerogative of granting Indulgence has been exercised by the teachers of the Church from the beginning of her existence.
St. Paul exercised it in behalf of the incestuous Corinthian whom he had condemned to a severe penance proportioned to his guilt, `that his spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord.’
(1 Cor 5:5).
And having learned afterwards of the Corinthian’s fervent contrition the Apostle absolves him from the penance which he had imposed.
(2 Cor 2:6-10).
Here we have all the elements that constitute an Indulgence.
First – A penance, or temporal punishment proportioned to the gravity of the offence, is imposed on the transgressor.
Second – The penitent is truly contrite for his crime.
Third – This determines the Apostle to remit the penalty.
Fourth – The Apostle considers the relaxation of the penance ratified by Jesus Christ, in whose name it is imparted. . . .
We cannot please our opponents.
If we fast and give alms; if we crucify our flesh, and make pilgrimages and perform other works of penance, we are accused of clinging to the rags of dead works, instead of `holding on to Jesus’ by faith.
If, on the other hand, we enrich our souls with the treasures of Indulgences we are charged with relying on the vicarious merits of others and of lightening too much the salutary burden of the cross.
But how can Protestants consistently find fault with the Church for mitigating the austerities of penance, since their own fundamental principle rests on faith alone without good works?
(The Faith of Our Fathers, New York: P. J. Kenedy & Sons, revised edition, 1917, 308-309, 311)
E. Ludwig Ott
Pope Leo X in the indulgence Decretal Cum postquam (1518),
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Cum-postquam
Bases the Church’s power to grant Indulgences on the power of the keys.
This must not be understood as referring in the narrow sense to the power of forgiving sins, but rather as referring in the wider sense to the jurisdiction of the Church . . .
By its very nature an Indulgence is not a pure act of grace, in which the temporal punishment for sin is remitted gratis without anything being done in return:
It implies compensation drawn from the treasury of satisfaction amassed by Christ and by the Saints.
The Bishops of the Christian communion are entitled to distribute this spiritual treasure among the faithful.
The possibility of vicarious satisfaction derives from the unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, the Communion of Saints.
(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974, 441)
F. Karl Adam
The Church in virtue of her power of binding and loosing may supplement the poverty of one member out of the wealth of another . . .
All the main ideas upon which the doctrine of indulgences is based – the necessity of expiation for sin, the co-operative expiation of the members of the Body of Christ, the Church’s power so to bind and loose on earth that her action is valid in heaven –
All these ideas are contained in holy Scripture. So that although the historical form of the indulgence has undergone some change . . . and may in the future undergo further change, and although the theology of indulgences has only been gradually elaborated, yet in its substance the doctrine is in line with the pure thought of the Scriptures.
Here, as in no other practice of the Church, do the members of the Body of Christ co-operate in loving expiation.
All the earnestness and joyfulness, humility and contrition, love and fidelity, which animate the Body are here especially combined and manifested. (The Spirit of Catholicism, translated by Justin McCann, revised edition, Garden City, New York: Doubleday Image, 1954 [orig. 1924], 127-128)
Dave Armstrong
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2018/07/classic-catholic-reflections-on-indulgences.html
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/author/davearmstrong
A. Servant of God John A. Hardon, S .J.
‘The remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned, which the follower of Christ with the proper dispositions and under certain determined conditions acquires through the intervention of the Church, which, as minister of the redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the satisfaction won by Christ and the saints.’
(Pope Paul VI, Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences).
As originally understood, an indulgence was a mitigation of the severe canonical penances imposed on the faithful for grave sins . . .
The measure of how efficacious an indulgenced work is depends on two things: the supernatural charity with which the indulgenced task is done, and the perfection of the task itself . . .
Indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of suffrage, asking God to remit their sufferings if they are still in purgatory.”
(Pocket Catholic Dictionary, New York: Doubleday Image, 1980, 193-194)
Indulgences presuppose:
A retributive basis for divine justice, i.e., that sins must have a penalty either on earth or in purgatory, even (it may be) after the sinner has been reconciled with God by sacramental absolution;
The existence of the `treasury of merits,’ i.e., the infinite merits of Christ, together with the merits of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints, which the Church possesses in virtue of the communion of saints;
The belief that the Church, by her power of jurisdiction, has the right of administering the benefit of these merits in consideration of the prayers or other pious works undertaken by the faithful. (The Catholic Catechism, Garden City, New York: Doubleday, 1975, 561-562)
B. Peter Kreeft
The origin of the Reformation is often said to be Luther’s act of nailing ninety-five theses against the sale of indulgences to the door of the church in Wittenberg.
This event is celebrated as Reformation Day (October 31, 1517) . . .
But the scandal of selling indulgences was only the catalyst, not the cause, of the Reformation.
The Church soon cleaned up its act and forbade the sale of indulgences at the Council of Trent, agreeing with Luther on this point.
But one does not split the Church over a practice; one splits the Church over a doctrine, for the Church can change its practice but never its doctrine.
To change a practice, one stays in the Church; to change a doctrine, one must start a new Church.
(Fundamentals of the Faith, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988, 278)
C. Blessed Pope Paul VI
[The treasury of the Church] is not like a sum of goods which were amassed in the course of the centuries after the manner of material riches.
Rather, it consists in the infinite and inexhaustible value that the atonement and merits of Christ, the Lord, have before God . . .
The treasury of the Church is Christ the Redeemer himself insofar as the satisfaction and merits of his work of redemption have their permanence and validity in him.
Furthermore, the truly immeasurable, inexhaustible, and always new value that the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of all the saints possess before God also belong to this treasury.
They have followed in the footsteps of Christ, the Lord; by his grace, they have sanctified themselves and completed the work entrusted to them by the Father.
Thus have they worked their own salvation and contributed also to the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the mystical body. (Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences: 1967)
D. James Cardinal Gibbons
The prerogative of granting Indulgence has been exercised by the teachers of the Church from the beginning of her existence.
St. Paul exercised it in behalf of the incestuous Corinthian whom he had condemned to a severe penance proportioned to his guilt, `that his spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord.’
(1 Cor 5:5).
And having learned afterwards of the Corinthian’s fervent contrition the Apostle absolves him from the penance which he had imposed.
(2 Cor 2:6-10).
Here we have all the elements that constitute an Indulgence.
First – A penance, or temporal punishment proportioned to the gravity of the offence, is imposed on the transgressor.
Second – The penitent is truly contrite for his crime.
Third – This determines the Apostle to remit the penalty.
Fourth – The Apostle considers the relaxation of the penance ratified by Jesus Christ, in whose name it is imparted. . . .
We cannot please our opponents.
If we fast and give alms; if we crucify our flesh, and make pilgrimages and perform other works of penance, we are accused of clinging to the rags of dead works, instead of `holding on to Jesus’ by faith.
If, on the other hand, we enrich our souls with the treasures of Indulgences we are charged with relying on the vicarious merits of others and of lightening too much the salutary burden of the cross.
But how can Protestants consistently find fault with the Church for mitigating the austerities of penance, since their own fundamental principle rests on faith alone without good works?
(The Faith of Our Fathers, New York: P. J. Kenedy & Sons, revised edition, 1917, 308-309, 311)
E. Ludwig Ott
Pope Leo X in the indulgence Decretal Cum postquam (1518),
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Cum-postquam
Bases the Church’s power to grant Indulgences on the power of the keys.
This must not be understood as referring in the narrow sense to the power of forgiving sins, but rather as referring in the wider sense to the jurisdiction of the Church . . .
By its very nature an Indulgence is not a pure act of grace, in which the temporal punishment for sin is remitted gratis without anything being done in return:
It implies compensation drawn from the treasury of satisfaction amassed by Christ and by the Saints.
The Bishops of the Christian communion are entitled to distribute this spiritual treasure among the faithful.
The possibility of vicarious satisfaction derives from the unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, the Communion of Saints.
(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974, 441)
F. Karl Adam
The Church in virtue of her power of binding and loosing may supplement the poverty of one member out of the wealth of another . . .
All the main ideas upon which the doctrine of indulgences is based – the necessity of expiation for sin, the co-operative expiation of the members of the Body of Christ, the Church’s power so to bind and loose on earth that her action is valid in heaven –
All these ideas are contained in holy Scripture. So that although the historical form of the indulgence has undergone some change . . . and may in the future undergo further change, and although the theology of indulgences has only been gradually elaborated, yet in its substance the doctrine is in line with the pure thought of the Scriptures.
Here, as in no other practice of the Church, do the members of the Body of Christ co-operate in loving expiation.
All the earnestness and joyfulness, humility and contrition, love and fidelity, which animate the Body are here especially combined and manifested. (The Spirit of Catholicism, translated by Justin McCann, revised edition, Garden City, New York: Doubleday Image, 1954 [orig. 1924], 127-128)
TexaCan wrote:
Did Jesus tell one of the criminals hanging next t... (show quote)
Dec 14, 2018 00:35:21 #
01/02/2015. Furnace of Divine Love: The Biblical Roots of Purgatory
Thomas Smith
https://media.ascensionpress.com/2015/01/02/furnace-divine-love-biblical-roots-purgatory/
To begin anything well, we need to consider the end—where we want to be or what we want to accomplish.
This is also true for spiritual goals.
As human persons our ultimate end or goal is eternal union with God, and one of the states most of us will pass through to reach that blessed end is called purgatory.
Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition;
Which together make up the one deposit of faith—enlighten us on the reality of purgatory.
The formulations of Church councils, especially Florence and Trent, as well as the writings of the saints and scholars throughout history, deepen our understanding.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):
Defines purgatory as “a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship.
But were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.”
(CCC, Glossary; see also CCC 1031, 1472).
As believers in God’s merciful love, we should want to be purified of our sins and imperfections; in this sense, we should desire purgatory.
It is a state of hope, a furnace of divine love that purifies us so that we can be with God forever in heaven.
Purgatory makes us perfect in God’s love.
As C.S. Lewis, the great Christian apologist has said.
“Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they?”
Here are some helpful ways I have found to talk about purgatory with non-Catholics.
And those Catholics who think that purgatory is a relic of the Church’s pre-Vatican II past):
God is perfect; he is all holy. Nothing unclean can enter his presence
(see Revelation 21:27)
Therefore, we must be perfectly holy before we can enter heaven.
(see Hebrews 12:14).
Though we may strive to cooperate with God’s saving grace, most of us will die with imperfections and attachments to sin.
Therefore, there must be an intermediate state between bodily death and heaven that will cleanse us from our imperfections and prepare us to enter into the all-holy presence of God.
The Church has defined this state as “purgatory.”
Many Catholic Scripture scholars believe St. Paul is describing purgatory in his first letter to the Corinthians:
“According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it.
Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man’s work will become manifest;
For the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
(1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
After speaking about building our lives on the foundation of Christ, Paul turns to our death, when all of our works will be revealed.
The term “the Day” speaks of our particular judgment after death.
(Hebrews 9:27).
This purification is described as a fire and our works as different building materials.
What is not worthy to be in God’s presence is burned away (like straw or wood), and what is valuable and eternal (like gold or silver) will not be consumed but refined by this purifying fire.
You can find similar images in other parts of the New Testament.
(see 1 Peter 1:7)
While there will be a kind of suffering or “fire,” the ultimate end is the person will be saved by it.
Understanding this purification of the soul after death is why we pray for the holy souls.
Praying for the dead was a practice we see in the.
Old Testament (2 Maccabees 12:38-46; Sirach 7:33).
One which was confirmed as a belief and practice by the first followers of Jesus. (
see the writings of St. Ephrem, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, among others).
Let me propose three spiritual exercises that can flow from our reflection on purgatory:
Let us resolve to accept the gift of God’s forgiveness by participating in the sacraments, especially reconciliation, more frequently.
Let us regularly examine our earthly attachments (what has hold of our attentions, affections and energy?).
Are they healthy attachments? If not, create a spiritual plan for loosening their grip on your life.
Finally, give the holy souls the gift of your prayers, and grace-filled works that they may be finally and fully united to God.
Eternal rest, grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. Amen.
Going Deeper:
St. John Paul II offered a brief, but beautiful, reflection on purgatory, during one of his public audiences.
You can find it here.
www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999_en.html
You May Also Like …
A Fiery Faith for All Souls
www.biblestudyforcatholics.com/souls/
Maccabean Revolt & Messianic Fulfillment
www.biblestudyforcatholics.com/maccabean-revolt-messianic-fulfillment/
Thomas Smith
https://media.ascensionpress.com/2015/01/02/furnace-divine-love-biblical-roots-purgatory/
To begin anything well, we need to consider the end—where we want to be or what we want to accomplish.
This is also true for spiritual goals.
As human persons our ultimate end or goal is eternal union with God, and one of the states most of us will pass through to reach that blessed end is called purgatory.
Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition;
Which together make up the one deposit of faith—enlighten us on the reality of purgatory.
The formulations of Church councils, especially Florence and Trent, as well as the writings of the saints and scholars throughout history, deepen our understanding.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):
Defines purgatory as “a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship.
But were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.”
(CCC, Glossary; see also CCC 1031, 1472).
As believers in God’s merciful love, we should want to be purified of our sins and imperfections; in this sense, we should desire purgatory.
It is a state of hope, a furnace of divine love that purifies us so that we can be with God forever in heaven.
Purgatory makes us perfect in God’s love.
As C.S. Lewis, the great Christian apologist has said.
“Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they?”
Here are some helpful ways I have found to talk about purgatory with non-Catholics.
And those Catholics who think that purgatory is a relic of the Church’s pre-Vatican II past):
God is perfect; he is all holy. Nothing unclean can enter his presence
(see Revelation 21:27)
Therefore, we must be perfectly holy before we can enter heaven.
(see Hebrews 12:14).
Though we may strive to cooperate with God’s saving grace, most of us will die with imperfections and attachments to sin.
Therefore, there must be an intermediate state between bodily death and heaven that will cleanse us from our imperfections and prepare us to enter into the all-holy presence of God.
The Church has defined this state as “purgatory.”
Many Catholic Scripture scholars believe St. Paul is describing purgatory in his first letter to the Corinthians:
“According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it.
Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man’s work will become manifest;
For the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
(1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
After speaking about building our lives on the foundation of Christ, Paul turns to our death, when all of our works will be revealed.
The term “the Day” speaks of our particular judgment after death.
(Hebrews 9:27).
This purification is described as a fire and our works as different building materials.
What is not worthy to be in God’s presence is burned away (like straw or wood), and what is valuable and eternal (like gold or silver) will not be consumed but refined by this purifying fire.
You can find similar images in other parts of the New Testament.
(see 1 Peter 1:7)
While there will be a kind of suffering or “fire,” the ultimate end is the person will be saved by it.
Understanding this purification of the soul after death is why we pray for the holy souls.
Praying for the dead was a practice we see in the.
Old Testament (2 Maccabees 12:38-46; Sirach 7:33).
One which was confirmed as a belief and practice by the first followers of Jesus. (
see the writings of St. Ephrem, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, among others).
Let me propose three spiritual exercises that can flow from our reflection on purgatory:
Let us resolve to accept the gift of God’s forgiveness by participating in the sacraments, especially reconciliation, more frequently.
Let us regularly examine our earthly attachments (what has hold of our attentions, affections and energy?).
Are they healthy attachments? If not, create a spiritual plan for loosening their grip on your life.
Finally, give the holy souls the gift of your prayers, and grace-filled works that they may be finally and fully united to God.
Eternal rest, grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. Amen.
Going Deeper:
St. John Paul II offered a brief, but beautiful, reflection on purgatory, during one of his public audiences.
You can find it here.
www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999_en.html
You May Also Like …
A Fiery Faith for All Souls
www.biblestudyforcatholics.com/souls/
Maccabean Revolt & Messianic Fulfillment
www.biblestudyforcatholics.com/maccabean-revolt-messianic-fulfillment/
TexaCan wrote:
br br Did Jesus tell one of the criminals hangin... (show quote)
Dec 14, 2018 06:06:18 #
Doc110 wrote:
mwdegutis br br I ask a question then you ask a q... (show quote)
I answered your question Doc. Eternal damnation. They will go to eternal damnation. And then I quoted Scripture to back it up.
Now answer mine. Does your belief in Purgatory mean that everyone eventually gets to heaven?
Check out topic: Into the Lion's Den..
Dec 14, 2018 08:36:03 #
TexaCan wrote:
Did Jesus tell one of the criminals hanging next t... (show quote)
Dead on sister. God's word is the final authority.
Dec 14, 2018 09:25:35 #
mwdegutis,
We both think differently about what sin is and purification from sin.
mwdegutis, Let me try to explain our differences.
Yours is black and white, understanding of what sin is, and for the forgiveness of sins from the soul . . . and to attain entrance of heaven, free of sin.
Here are the differences . . .
A Catholic understanding of what sin is, and forgiveness of sin . . . which is to attain entrance of heaven is a black and white understanding, and and directly to God.
Which is an and or both, and the understanding of purification of sin and the taint of concupiscence of sin from the soul.
1. Do you understand the Catholic concept of veinal sins and mortal sins, which is a suffering of the soul ?
2. That these sins can be forgiven by a Catholic priest through reconciliation and directly to God. Catholics have a dual, both, and, forgiveness of sin.
And what a practicing Catholic will do to attain entrance in heaven, free of sin and a refined soul, free from the taint of sin and concupiscence.
3. Purgatory is a temporal-temporary destination for the soul, until the taint of sin, concupiscence of sin is purified and removed then attain heaven, pure from the taint of sin.
Not a difficult concept to understand.
4. Here is the distinct difference from Protestants, most often, only pray to God for removal of sins directly.
5. Protestants do not understand the concept of veinal sins and mortal sins and concupiscence of sin.
6. But Protestant Lutherans and Anglicans also go to Confession and to minister or pastor for forgiveness of sin.
7. So with-in Protestantism there are confessions and different ways to ask for forgiveness of sin.
8. In the Baptist tradition is the, Alter-Call to commit Jesus Christ and to ask for forgiveness of sin from the minister and the people present.
So there is a conundrum and differences. Between the Catholic Church and the Protestant church.
Remember that Jesus taught and instructed the apostles in the forgiveness of sin.
Jesus Appears to His Disciples and Gives them the Holy Spirit to Forgive Sin. John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
So confession-Reconciliation from sin is a grace a "Sacrament" that all humans persons can receive, the gift "Repentance from Sin" and "Penance for Forgiveness of Sin" by a Priest.
Protestants who do not practice confession-Reconciliation Sacrament from sin, do-not receive this gift of grace from God.
This is one more difference between Catholics, we have been practicing this forgiveness of sin and Sacrament of grace for 1,987 years.
Scriptural passages for confession-Reconciliation and for Purgatory.
Matthew 16:19
19 Peter, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.”
Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two, Luke 10:1-23,
1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.
9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’
4. The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
5. He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
17 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
23 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see.
Every human person has the taint of sin and concupiscence, or the formality of God, and purity from sin.
Furnace of Divine Love: The Biblical Roots of Purgatory, by Thomas Smith
https://media.ascensionpress.com/2015/01/02/furnace-divine-love-biblical-roots-purgatory/
1. The Catechism of the Catholic Church
(CCC):
Defines purgatory as “a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship.
But were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.”
(CCC, Glossary; see also CCC 1031, 1472).
As believers in God’s merciful love, we should want to be purified of our sins and imperfections; in this sense, we should desire purgatory.
It is a state of hope, a furnace of divine love that purifies us so that we can be with God forever in heaven.
As C.S. Lewis, one of the great Christian apologist has said.
“Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they?”
Discussing Purgatory, (Revelation 21:27)
God is perfect; he is all holy. Nothing unclean can enter his presence
Discussing Purgatory, (Hebrews 12:14)
Therefore, we must be perfectly holy before we can enter heaven.
The Church has defined this state as “purgatory.”
Many Catholic Scripture scholars believe St. Paul is describing purgatory in his first letter to the Corinthians:
“According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it.
Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man’s work will become manifest;
For the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
Though we may strive to cooperate with God’s saving grace, most of us will die with imperfections and attachments to sin.
In St. Paul letter, discussing Purgatory (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
After speaking about building our lives on the foundation of Christ, Paul turns to our death, when all of our works will be revealed.
The term “the Day” speaks of our particular judgment after death.
In discussing Purgatory, (Hebrews 9:27).
This purification is described as a fire and our works as different building materials.
What is not worthy to be in God’s presence is burned away (like straw or wood), and what is valuable and eternal (like gold or silver) will not be consumed but refined by this purifying fire.
You can find similar images in other parts of the New Testament.
In Peters Epistle discussing Purgatory (1 Peter 1:7)
While there will be a kind of suffering or “fire,” the ultimate end is the person will be saved by it.
Understanding this purification of the soul after death is why we pray for the holy souls.
Praying for the dead was a practice we see in the Old Testament.
(2 Maccabees 12:38-46; Sirach 7:33)
Purgatory makes us perfect and from purification of sin and the taint of concupiscence of sin, to receive God’s love in heaven.
mwdegutis, do you see our Christian differences and what we believe about what sin is, and attaining entrance in heaven with our soul.
We both think differently about what sin is and purification from sin.
mwdegutis, Let me try to explain our differences.
Yours is black and white, understanding of what sin is, and for the forgiveness of sins from the soul . . . and to attain entrance of heaven, free of sin.
Here are the differences . . .
A Catholic understanding of what sin is, and forgiveness of sin . . . which is to attain entrance of heaven is a black and white understanding, and and directly to God.
Which is an and or both, and the understanding of purification of sin and the taint of concupiscence of sin from the soul.
1. Do you understand the Catholic concept of veinal sins and mortal sins, which is a suffering of the soul ?
2. That these sins can be forgiven by a Catholic priest through reconciliation and directly to God. Catholics have a dual, both, and, forgiveness of sin.
And what a practicing Catholic will do to attain entrance in heaven, free of sin and a refined soul, free from the taint of sin and concupiscence.
3. Purgatory is a temporal-temporary destination for the soul, until the taint of sin, concupiscence of sin is purified and removed then attain heaven, pure from the taint of sin.
Not a difficult concept to understand.
4. Here is the distinct difference from Protestants, most often, only pray to God for removal of sins directly.
5. Protestants do not understand the concept of veinal sins and mortal sins and concupiscence of sin.
6. But Protestant Lutherans and Anglicans also go to Confession and to minister or pastor for forgiveness of sin.
7. So with-in Protestantism there are confessions and different ways to ask for forgiveness of sin.
8. In the Baptist tradition is the, Alter-Call to commit Jesus Christ and to ask for forgiveness of sin from the minister and the people present.
So there is a conundrum and differences. Between the Catholic Church and the Protestant church.
Remember that Jesus taught and instructed the apostles in the forgiveness of sin.
Jesus Appears to His Disciples and Gives them the Holy Spirit to Forgive Sin. John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
So confession-Reconciliation from sin is a grace a "Sacrament" that all humans persons can receive, the gift "Repentance from Sin" and "Penance for Forgiveness of Sin" by a Priest.
Protestants who do not practice confession-Reconciliation Sacrament from sin, do-not receive this gift of grace from God.
This is one more difference between Catholics, we have been practicing this forgiveness of sin and Sacrament of grace for 1,987 years.
Scriptural passages for confession-Reconciliation and for Purgatory.
Matthew 16:19
19 Peter, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.”
Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two, Luke 10:1-23,
1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.
9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’
4. The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
5. He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
17 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
23 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see.
Every human person has the taint of sin and concupiscence, or the formality of God, and purity from sin.
Furnace of Divine Love: The Biblical Roots of Purgatory, by Thomas Smith
https://media.ascensionpress.com/2015/01/02/furnace-divine-love-biblical-roots-purgatory/
1. The Catechism of the Catholic Church
(CCC):
Defines purgatory as “a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship.
But were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.”
(CCC, Glossary; see also CCC 1031, 1472).
As believers in God’s merciful love, we should want to be purified of our sins and imperfections; in this sense, we should desire purgatory.
It is a state of hope, a furnace of divine love that purifies us so that we can be with God forever in heaven.
As C.S. Lewis, one of the great Christian apologist has said.
“Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they?”
Discussing Purgatory, (Revelation 21:27)
God is perfect; he is all holy. Nothing unclean can enter his presence
Discussing Purgatory, (Hebrews 12:14)
Therefore, we must be perfectly holy before we can enter heaven.
The Church has defined this state as “purgatory.”
Many Catholic Scripture scholars believe St. Paul is describing purgatory in his first letter to the Corinthians:
“According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it.
Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man’s work will become manifest;
For the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
Though we may strive to cooperate with God’s saving grace, most of us will die with imperfections and attachments to sin.
In St. Paul letter, discussing Purgatory (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
After speaking about building our lives on the foundation of Christ, Paul turns to our death, when all of our works will be revealed.
The term “the Day” speaks of our particular judgment after death.
In discussing Purgatory, (Hebrews 9:27).
This purification is described as a fire and our works as different building materials.
What is not worthy to be in God’s presence is burned away (like straw or wood), and what is valuable and eternal (like gold or silver) will not be consumed but refined by this purifying fire.
You can find similar images in other parts of the New Testament.
In Peters Epistle discussing Purgatory (1 Peter 1:7)
While there will be a kind of suffering or “fire,” the ultimate end is the person will be saved by it.
Understanding this purification of the soul after death is why we pray for the holy souls.
Praying for the dead was a practice we see in the Old Testament.
(2 Maccabees 12:38-46; Sirach 7:33)
Purgatory makes us perfect and from purification of sin and the taint of concupiscence of sin, to receive God’s love in heaven.
mwdegutis, do you see our Christian differences and what we believe about what sin is, and attaining entrance in heaven with our soul.
Dec 14, 2018 09:42:09 #
Rose42,
So far you three can't answer the question either . . . (Paradise is not heaven,) in all accountings and definitions in the Bible . . .
So I'll pose the question a (Fourth time) ?
Rose stop the protestant cheerleading . . . your not out of the conundrum of not answering the question presented.
And will add (paradise) to the list of 7 places where a sinful soul resided before purification . . .
So I ask again to you three Protestants . . . .
1. So where does the soul reside in the state of sin? There are only a few that get the direct v line to heaven . . .
Because I don't believe The Protestant theory on sin, forgiveness of sin and where the soul resides before entering heaven.
I don't believe in the man-Made Protestant doctrine on forgiveness of sin, or ("Once saved, always saved.") And you Protestants don't get a direct path to heaven.
Because we all sin and we have and concupiscence of sin.
Then where does the sinful soul reside ?
Because the soul needs to be purified ? Before it goes to heaven and be with our Lord Jesus Christ and the Saints . . .
And here are examples of where the sinful soul resides ? Where does the soul reside, this is not a trick question ?
Give your best opinion ? And tell me why.
1.Gehenna,
2. Hell,
3. Hades,
4. The land Beyond,
5. Sheol,
6. Purgatory
7. Paradise, because the thief was also murder who committed grave sin . . . I don't think he gets to go to heaven right away.
8. What about the soul that has not been baptized, can that soul get into heaven ? Where does his soul resides ?
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Once the sin has been purified from all taint of sin, then it goes to heaven or if the soul can't be purified it goes to hell, don't you agree ?
But where does the soul reside in the meantime, it can't be heaven ?
Take your pick, provide biblical reference for your decision ?
So far you three can't answer the question either . . . (Paradise is not heaven,) in all accountings and definitions in the Bible . . .
So I'll pose the question a (Fourth time) ?
Rose stop the protestant cheerleading . . . your not out of the conundrum of not answering the question presented.
And will add (paradise) to the list of 7 places where a sinful soul resided before purification . . .
So I ask again to you three Protestants . . . .
1. So where does the soul reside in the state of sin? There are only a few that get the direct v line to heaven . . .
Because I don't believe The Protestant theory on sin, forgiveness of sin and where the soul resides before entering heaven.
I don't believe in the man-Made Protestant doctrine on forgiveness of sin, or ("Once saved, always saved.") And you Protestants don't get a direct path to heaven.
Because we all sin and we have and concupiscence of sin.
Then where does the sinful soul reside ?
Because the soul needs to be purified ? Before it goes to heaven and be with our Lord Jesus Christ and the Saints . . .
And here are examples of where the sinful soul resides ? Where does the soul reside, this is not a trick question ?
Give your best opinion ? And tell me why.
1.Gehenna,
2. Hell,
3. Hades,
4. The land Beyond,
5. Sheol,
6. Purgatory
7. Paradise, because the thief was also murder who committed grave sin . . . I don't think he gets to go to heaven right away.
8. What about the soul that has not been baptized, can that soul get into heaven ? Where does his soul resides ?
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Once the sin has been purified from all taint of sin, then it goes to heaven or if the soul can't be purified it goes to hell, don't you agree ?
But where does the soul reside in the meantime, it can't be heaven ?
Take your pick, provide biblical reference for your decision ?
Rose42 wrote:
Dead on sister. God's word is the final authority.
Dead on sister. God's word is the final authority.
Dec 14, 2018 11:04:32 #
Doc110 wrote:
mwdegutis, br br We both think differently about ... (show quote)
Yes Doc, sin is black and white. There's no such thing as a "little bit" of sin. We are either for God or against Him. There's no middle of the road. And we are all condemned due to sin. The only just penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23), not just physical death but eternal death (Revelation 20:11-15). Thankfully, sin has been crucified on the cross of Jesus, and now by faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior “we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7).
I answered your question...now answer mine.
Check out topic: Biden, The Coward Debator
Dec 14, 2018 12:39:31 #
mwdegutis,
Obviously you gave no consideration from the Catholic perspective of sin or the Protestant Anglican, or the Lutheran viewpoint of what sin actually is in my last comment to you.
What is a Sin ?
1. Veinal Sin . . .
2. Mortal . . . or Serious Sin
3. And taint of concupiscence Sin, derived from original Sin.
So mwdegutis,
It's your way or the highway, from your Protestant sectarian fundamentalist denomination "point of view" on what actually sin is ? . . .
Here in-lies the problem, it's your personal interpretation versus everyone else's Biblical church interpretation ?
What I'm driving at, I don't believe in your interpretation and you do believe in my Catholic interpretation, on what the definition of sin is . . .
And that's what the problem with is, with 30,000 thousand plus Protestant sectarian bible believing denominations.
And 30,000 independent biblical self-interpreting little 'Pope's."
Believing in their own literal man-Made self-interpretations of Biblical scripture which has no governing body or governing authority.
That is really the issue of the question that I proposed to you.
We both talked at simplistic questions of understanding, then you gave this long religious diatribe of biblical verses in you're reply.
I then gave you a overview religious perspective reply and then asked Rose42, TexaCan and yourself to answer the original Question proposed.
Not one of you three . . . a Baptist, . . . a Berean, sect or fractional denomination, or your own personal fundamental Protestant church ?
Would answer the Question ?
The problem is you can't answer my question or won't answer my question, . . .
All you gave was an evasive answer . . . although a direct answer of no and bible verses.
It reminds me when Abraham argues with God about the righteous souls living in Sodom and Gomorrah and the saving of fifty righteous people in the city.
Abraham then argues for 50, 45, 40, 20, then 10.
Genesis 18:16-33
This is the same style of argumentation you are doing, you can't or won't have an honest dialogue or conversation.
Hence the three of you. . . . TexaCans, Rose42 and yourself mwdegutis.
Never gives an honest or open answer, you hide and divert behind the man-Made dead Protestant doctrine of Sola-Scripture or whatever the case may be . . .
This is the inherent problem of Protestantism and dealing with 30,000 thousand plus Protestant sectarian bible believing denominations.
Here is the comedy or chagrin of the present nature of the situation . . .
For the Fifth time . . . answer the question ? Or tell me you don't know the answer and you will get back with me later . . .
So then where does the sinful soul reside ?
Because we both agree that the soul needs to be purified ? Before the soul enters heaven to be with our Lord Jesus Christ, angels and the saved Saints . . .
And here are examples, of where the possibility where sinful soul reside's that need purification?
So, where does the soul reside, this is not a trick question ?
Give your best opinion ? And tell me why.
1.Gehenna,
2. Hell,
3. Hades,
4. The land Beyond,
5. Sheol,
6. Purgatory
7. Paradise, because the thief was also murder who committed grave sin . . . I don't think he gets to go to heaven right away.
8. What about the soul that has not been baptized, can that soul get into heaven ? Where does his soul resides ?
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Once the sin has been purified from all taint of sin concupiscence, then it goes to heaven or if the soul can't be purified it goes to hell, don't you agree ?
But where does the soul reside in the meantime, it can't be heaven ? because the taint of concupiscence.
Take your pick, provide biblical reference for your decision ?
Well the other Protestant churches Anglican, Lutheran and the Catholic Church's begs to differ with your Protestant personal belief of gaining entrance to heaven.
So obviously your belief can't be 100% correct on this issue.
Once Saved, always Saved ? Protestant belief system. those exact words cannot be found in the Bible . . .
No, it does not teach the doctrine of ‘once saved, always saved.’
A person who has gained salvation by faith in Jesus Christ can lose that faith and the salvation that comes with it.
The Bible says that maintaining faith requires great effort, a “hard fight.”
(Jude 3, 5)
Early Christians who had already accepted Christ were told: “Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”—
Philippians 2:12.
The Bible warns against serious sins that will keep a person from entering God’s Kingdom.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21)
If salvation could not be lost, such warnings would be meaningless.
Instead, the Bible shows that someone who has been saved can fall away by returning to a practice of serious sin.
For example, Hebrews 10:26 states: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.”—
Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 2:20-22.
Only when his death was imminent did the apostle Paul feel that his salvation was assured.
(2 Timothy 4:6-8)
Earlier in his life, he recognized that he could still miss out on salvation if he gave in to fleshly desires. He wrote:
“I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.”—
1 Corinthians 9:27; Philippians 3:12-14.
By the way mwdegutis, rose42 and TexaCan, . . .are you all without sin, or the taint of sin ?
Doc110
Obviously you gave no consideration from the Catholic perspective of sin or the Protestant Anglican, or the Lutheran viewpoint of what sin actually is in my last comment to you.
What is a Sin ?
1. Veinal Sin . . .
2. Mortal . . . or Serious Sin
3. And taint of concupiscence Sin, derived from original Sin.
So mwdegutis,
It's your way or the highway, from your Protestant sectarian fundamentalist denomination "point of view" on what actually sin is ? . . .
Here in-lies the problem, it's your personal interpretation versus everyone else's Biblical church interpretation ?
What I'm driving at, I don't believe in your interpretation and you do believe in my Catholic interpretation, on what the definition of sin is . . .
And that's what the problem with is, with 30,000 thousand plus Protestant sectarian bible believing denominations.
And 30,000 independent biblical self-interpreting little 'Pope's."
Believing in their own literal man-Made self-interpretations of Biblical scripture which has no governing body or governing authority.
That is really the issue of the question that I proposed to you.
We both talked at simplistic questions of understanding, then you gave this long religious diatribe of biblical verses in you're reply.
I then gave you a overview religious perspective reply and then asked Rose42, TexaCan and yourself to answer the original Question proposed.
Not one of you three . . . a Baptist, . . . a Berean, sect or fractional denomination, or your own personal fundamental Protestant church ?
Would answer the Question ?
The problem is you can't answer my question or won't answer my question, . . .
All you gave was an evasive answer . . . although a direct answer of no and bible verses.
It reminds me when Abraham argues with God about the righteous souls living in Sodom and Gomorrah and the saving of fifty righteous people in the city.
Abraham then argues for 50, 45, 40, 20, then 10.
Genesis 18:16-33
This is the same style of argumentation you are doing, you can't or won't have an honest dialogue or conversation.
Hence the three of you. . . . TexaCans, Rose42 and yourself mwdegutis.
Never gives an honest or open answer, you hide and divert behind the man-Made dead Protestant doctrine of Sola-Scripture or whatever the case may be . . .
This is the inherent problem of Protestantism and dealing with 30,000 thousand plus Protestant sectarian bible believing denominations.
Here is the comedy or chagrin of the present nature of the situation . . .
For the Fifth time . . . answer the question ? Or tell me you don't know the answer and you will get back with me later . . .
So then where does the sinful soul reside ?
Because we both agree that the soul needs to be purified ? Before the soul enters heaven to be with our Lord Jesus Christ, angels and the saved Saints . . .
And here are examples, of where the possibility where sinful soul reside's that need purification?
So, where does the soul reside, this is not a trick question ?
Give your best opinion ? And tell me why.
1.Gehenna,
2. Hell,
3. Hades,
4. The land Beyond,
5. Sheol,
6. Purgatory
7. Paradise, because the thief was also murder who committed grave sin . . . I don't think he gets to go to heaven right away.
8. What about the soul that has not been baptized, can that soul get into heaven ? Where does his soul resides ?
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Once the sin has been purified from all taint of sin concupiscence, then it goes to heaven or if the soul can't be purified it goes to hell, don't you agree ?
But where does the soul reside in the meantime, it can't be heaven ? because the taint of concupiscence.
Take your pick, provide biblical reference for your decision ?
Well the other Protestant churches Anglican, Lutheran and the Catholic Church's begs to differ with your Protestant personal belief of gaining entrance to heaven.
So obviously your belief can't be 100% correct on this issue.
Once Saved, always Saved ? Protestant belief system. those exact words cannot be found in the Bible . . .
No, it does not teach the doctrine of ‘once saved, always saved.’
A person who has gained salvation by faith in Jesus Christ can lose that faith and the salvation that comes with it.
The Bible says that maintaining faith requires great effort, a “hard fight.”
(Jude 3, 5)
Early Christians who had already accepted Christ were told: “Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”—
Philippians 2:12.
The Bible warns against serious sins that will keep a person from entering God’s Kingdom.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21)
If salvation could not be lost, such warnings would be meaningless.
Instead, the Bible shows that someone who has been saved can fall away by returning to a practice of serious sin.
For example, Hebrews 10:26 states: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.”—
Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 2:20-22.
Only when his death was imminent did the apostle Paul feel that his salvation was assured.
(2 Timothy 4:6-8)
Earlier in his life, he recognized that he could still miss out on salvation if he gave in to fleshly desires. He wrote:
“I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.”—
1 Corinthians 9:27; Philippians 3:12-14.
By the way mwdegutis, rose42 and TexaCan, . . .are you all without sin, or the taint of sin ?
Doc110
mwdegutis wrote:
br br Yes Doc, sin is black and white. br br T... (show quote)
Dec 14, 2018 14:03:20 #
Doc110 wrote:
...By the way mwdegutis, rose42 and TexaCan, . . .are you all without sin, or the taint of sin ? Doc110
You're running circles around my question Doc.
You said you wouldn't answer mine until I answered yours. I answered yours. So answer my question Doc. A simple yes or no will suffice...
Does your belief in Purgatory mean that everyone eventually gets to heaven?
Dec 14, 2018 15:13:10 #
TexaCan
Loc: Homeward Bound!
Doc110 wrote:
Rose42, br br So far you three can't answer the q... (show quote)
We are not going to pick ANY ONE of your choices! We have answered you and we have provided you with our scriptures to back up our answer! There is NO purgatory! When a person takes his/her last breath, they are either saved or there’re not! Their sins are completely forgiven if they are saved! No need to be purified!
If their sins are not forgiven it is because they rejected Jesus Christ and nothing can help them now! They are going to Hell! No one can pay them out..... no one can pray them out..... their fate is sealed for eternity!
Jesus told the criminal on the cross that he would be with Him that day! So! Wherever Jesus was the criminal was with Him.......and I don’t think Jesus resides in Purgatory! Do you?
Dec 14, 2018 15:47:07 #
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