padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Total depravity is an old Calvinist heretical teaching. Mankind is born with original sin not original guilt. Valid baptism is the necessary sanctifying Grace that washes away original sin.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

What is valid baptism,Padre.

Mr Bombastic

Catholics have some funny ideas. Not being derogatory, just musing. I've always had a problem with infant baptism. They have not reached the age of accountability yet, so if they died, they would go straight to Heaven. The Bible tells us that with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Speaking of which, what is a mute person supposed to do? I've always wondered about that. They can't speak, so how can they make a confession? I must be missing something. So many questions. I don't pretend to know all the answers. All I know, for sure, is that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the only path to salvation, through the act of repentance. He is my Lord and Savior. That's all I need to know. As long as I know that, I don't really need to know anything else about Scripture. Do I? Not saying that it doesn't matter, since much of Scripture tells how to cope with things like sin, and whatnot. But all anyone really needs to know to get to heaven can be taught to a young child. It's not rocket science, after all.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Three things are required: Matter, Form and Intent. The matter is water, the form is "I baptize you in the Name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit" and intent is to be baptised into the Christian faith.

The church has always recognized instances of valid baptism by blood frequently, but not always, martyrs.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

Like I say; a whole lot of man's doctrines can get in the way of the truth and the Light.

Mr Bombastic

Are you saying that baptism is required for salvation?

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Many people have concerns with infant baptism but you can search the bible from cover to cover and you will not find any reference about baptism requiring an age of accountability. What you will find is that entire households were baptised and that obviously included their children. Ancient drawings in the Roman catacombs depict children being baptised with a pitcher of water being poured over them. Baptism establishes a covenant relationship with God as circumcision did with the Jews. Do you recall how young the Jewish child was when his wickerbill was snipped? 8 days.

Baptism confers sanctifying Grace on the person being baptised and this Grace is necessary for salvation, well, according to scripture it is. We become a child of God (by adoption) ONLY once we are baptised. We die a death unto sin and are raised up a new person into a new life with Christ. Why should sanctioning grace be withheld from a child? The parents and congregation accept the responsibility for raising the child in the Christian faith until that child is old enough to accept their own responsibility. And parents give them "nudges" for as long as they live. St. Thomas said the first responsibility of a "father" is to teach their children the faith.

One of the necessary traditions the Christian church has become extremely remiss in upholding is the responsibility the congregation accepts in guiding those young people baptised in their congregation. Every member is responsible for raising that child in the faith and accepting that responsibility as the child grows up as are God parents. I'm confident that worked much better when we were primarily an agrarian society but it still applies.

Finally, to answer your last question. There are many people who are saints who never learned to read and write. On the other hand there is only one thing that builds a rock solid faith and that is knowledge. And not all that knowledge is found in scripture.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

No, not me, scripture says it.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

On the other hand personal opinion and false belief and teaching has completely turned off the switch.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Agreed. I am demonstrating that there is not just one "Doctrine of Original Sin." You are correct in that Calvinism is just one of many offerings as to doctrines of Men. Another is the doctrines of Catholicism. Even Baptist churches have their own version. It seems to be universal in scope, in that "everyone knows" is the standard that replaces "So saith the Scriptures."

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

eagleye13 wrote:
Like I say; a whole lot of man's doctrines can get in the way of the truth and the Light.

Things like praying to Mary, instead of directly to God.
Confessing your sins to another man, instead of God, and asking God/Yahweh Yahshua for forgiveness.
Having that personal relationship, by talking directly to Him.

Seems your church in particular, ignores the scriptures in many ways.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Miss padre Mike doesn't know what she is talking about.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Leave us alone. You're a heretic and an apostate and have no credibility to be among those of us who share a common faith in Jesus Christ.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

THAT is truly SAD!

Did you not know, it was the patristics who used the Heretical argument that the "Phoenix" - that ancient mythical bird from Egypt, is God's example of the Resurrection:


[Apostolic Fathers Vol.III - p.554]
[The Writings Of [color=blue]Tertullian[/color] (a.d.145-220); On The Resurrection Of The Flesh]

Chap.XIII From our author's view of a verse in the ninety second Psalm,[verse twelve, which references the "phoinix" which is a Palm Tree.] the phoenix is made a symbol of the resurrection of our bodies.

If however, all nature but faintly figures our resurrection; if creation affords no sign precisely like it


[Apostolic Fathers Vol.I - p.12]
[The First Epistle Of [color=darkgreen]Clement[/color] (a.d.100-200) To The Corinthians]

"Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is in Arabia and the countries round about."

"There is a certain bird which is called a Phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies."

"But, as the flesh decays, a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers."

"Then, when it has aquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis."

"And in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode."

"The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed."

"Do we then deem it any great and wonderful thing for the maker of all things to raise up again those that have piously served him in that assurance of faith, when even by a bird, he shows us the mightiness of his power to fulfill his promise?"

Both of these ancient SCHOLARS read the old testament reference to the Palm Tree, which in the Greek, is -

foinikwn = genitive masculine plural form of noun Foinix Phoenix = palm-tree; palm branch
Exodus 15:27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten [foinikwn] palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

John 12:13 Took branches of [foinikwn] palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
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foinix = nominative masculine singular form of noun Foinix Phoenix palm-tree; palm branch
Psalm 92:12 The righteous shall flourish like the [foinix] palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.

foinikes = nominative masculine plural form of noun Foinix Phoenix palm-tree; palm branch
Ezekiel 41:18 And it was made with cherubims and [foinikes] palm trees, so that a palm tree was between a cherub and a cherub; and every cherub had two faces;

Why would I consult them on anything having to do with scripture?

When you rely upon the Early Church Fathers for understanding, you are reading books ABOUT the scripture, you are not reading the SCRIPTURES.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Consider, it is inconceivable that all people are kcstargoat; the most reasonable conclusion is, no person therefore is kcstargoat.

mmm... No!