nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Mean old rabbits!

Big dog

Yes, Christ IS REAL, you'd better believe it .

pafret Loc: Northeast

The mystery and vastness are what induces the Concept of God. Whatever the mode, of our existence, is or is not, was not of my doing. It matters not if all of this is the imagining of something else; I am not that something else and this is the reality I am constrained to live with.

To deny materiality or the history, of our existence, is to embrace Nihilism. Science's inability to explain the ultimate cause of all universes will not be overcome because for something to come from nothing is an impossibility in our realm of existence. In as much as we cannot experience any other realm, if it exists, mandates a religious explanation for the universe's existence.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

I don't actually agree that the mystery and vastness of the universe mandates a creator or God, although I do belief there possibly is one or both. It's the concept of Christ to which I was referring.

samtheyank

AMEN! I have felt His touch.

pafret Loc: Northeast

Well, there is where we are going to have to accept difference of opinions. For me, Christ was a historical reality, the fulfillment of all the prophesies of the coming Messiah and the Redeemer of mankind through his divine nature. To prove this would require an extensive amount of time engaged in apologetics and is not a topic for discussion in this forum.

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Agreed.

Big dog

So what's the difference between politics and religion ?

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

There's a difference?

pafret Loc: Northeast

Politics is derived from the Greek word Polis meaning city and more directly Politika relating to the governance of the city. It specifically means achieving and exercising positions of governance.

A religion is the belief in and worship of a Supreme Being, especially the Creator of all. The particular system of faith and worship in that Supreme being is the cult of religion.

While some religious leaders are political that is not their primary purpose. That purpose is to guide and assist others, in expressing their faith, and belief in the Diety. This is why I do not believe Islam is a religion because it is a political cult of dominance. Its precepts are antithetical to what can be deduced of the nature of the Supreme Being.

Big dog

That IS what I'm asking. Religion has shaped politics for the Spanish of humanity. And TOO often, vice versa. So why can't we have that discussion here ?

Big dog

Okay that works for Islam, but what about the others ?

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

We certainly can. My question was a rhetorical start to that. Religion has dominated politics in more societies than not. Look at the history of Europe.

Big dog

And native Americans. If you didn't like the god they held dear, you found a different tribe. If you hated a certain god, you went to war with whomever worshiped the god you hated. Hmmmmm sounds familiar eh ?

pafret Loc: Northeast

This is not a simple task; historically the Catholic Church fell into a position of dominance in 455 AD during the sack of Rome by Genseric the Vandal. Valentinian the Third had just died and was replaced as Caesar by Maximus who was a coward and ran away when Genseric showed up. Pope Leo I negotiated a deal whereby Genseric would not burn down the city and kill everybody in return for three days of looting. Genseric's horde destroyed a lot of city in their attempt to get everything valuable, even going so far as the rip the copper roofs of the temple of Jupiter. Hence the term Vandalize. The Italians outside of Rome’s walls murdered Maximus.

This left a power vacuum that the Pope filled. Stepping forward, a few years, Childeric the Frank united the various tribes in France and Germany and under his son Clovis this became an empire. This established the Merovingian Dynasty (from Childeric's father Merovech), which Lasted from about 457 AD to about 752 AD when the line became moribund with most Merovingian heirs being stupid or insane. The Major Domos for the Merovingian were the line of Pepins. Pope Zachary formally deposed Childeric III, the last Merovingian. Zachary's successor, Pope Stephen II, confirmed and anointed Pepin the Short in 754, beginning the Carolingian monarchy.

This is important because it is the confirmation that the Church had temporal power over Kings and Princes. Pepin the Short received his crown from the Pope in a religious ceremmony. He made him and he could break him. Pepin's father was Charles Martel who was Mayor of The Palace and the de facto ruler, under the last Merovingian, thus establishing the Carolingian (Carolus) Dynasty.

Why did the Pope depose the Merovingians you might ask?

Lets digress and step back in time, over in the Arabian Peninsula a Warlord named Mohammed died in about 632 AD. After a few years of fighting over the succession to his power his followers swarmed out of the Arabian deserts and began a campaign of terror and conquest. Under the Rashidun Caliphate (632–661) and the Umayyad Caliphate (661–750), Islam conquered Persia by destroying the Sassanid Empire. They conquered Syria, Palestine, Armenia, Egypt, and swept across North Africa, up into Spain and finally into France. They were banging on the doors of the Western Roman Empire, which, while not accepting the Pope’s authority, was also Catholic, -- Byzantine Catholic. Constantinople suffered repeated Sieges from the Caliphate

In 732 Charles Martel met the Moslem hordes that were invading France, on their way to Italy, at Tours and Charlie Martel Kicked their butt. With regard for the signal service in stemming conquest by an alien, inferior, heresy posing as a religion Charlies kid, Pepin, got crowned King.

Pepin the Short was followed by Pepin the Stout and Pepin the Bald and Pepin the Fat and culminated in Charlemagne. Charles the Great who specialized in extending the rule of Catholicism, among the Saxons in the East, the Lombards in Italy and he even led excursions into Spain to combat the Moslems who were entrenched there. His efforts in this regard are immortalized in a heroic poem titled Le Chanson Du Roland, the Song of Roland. Roland was one of Charlemagne's Paladins. The story is full of combat against the Moors and Noble Roland’s tragic Death by ambush somewhere in the Pyrenees, in a dense fog as I recall.

Charlemagne became King of Franks, King of Germany and parts of Italy. His proselytizing efforts resembled those of the Moslems, convert or die. In recognition of these efforts, he was crowned Emperor of the Romans (Holy Roman Emperor) by Pope Leo III on Christmas Day at Old St. Peter's Basilica, around 800 AD.

So from times of antiquity the lines of battle had been drawn between two competing religions and these perforce were coupled politically with the ultimate question -- who dominates?

The Byzantine Empire continued suffering setbacks during the rapid expansion of the Arab Empire until they were overthrown. Spain remained a battleground until Ferdinand and Isabella succeeded in uniting Spain and ridding it of Moslems sometime around 1492. This battle had lasted 700 years and as a result all people residing in Spain got the convert, emigrate, or die option. A bunch of wise guys “converted” but secretly kept their old religion. They became toasty munchies under Torquemada.

There is an old jingle about a guy named Columbus sailing around in 1492; he was an exporter of religion as well as Syphilis. Shortly after he showed the way, Hernan Cortez was in Mexico destroying the Aztec civilization and making them the offer they couldn’t refuse. Pizzaro did the same for the Inca of Peru and both men brought a contingent of priests to minister to the newly converted heathens and these priests accompanied the expeditions into the Mainland US. They established the mission chain up the coast of California to convert Los Indios.

Jumping back in time as well as space, the Moslems penetrated Asia on many fronts. They colluded with China and Korea, they invaded the Eastern Steppes and converted the Mongols and ultimately ended up besieging the walled city of Caffa in 1346 AD.

“The memoir of an Italian Gabriele de’ Mussi, contains a narrative with some startling assertions: that the Mongol army hurled plague-infected cadavers into the besieged Crimean city of Caffa, thereby transmitting the disease to the inhabitants; and that fleeing survivors of the siege spread plague from Caffa to the Mediterranean Basin, principally Naples”

The Moslem Mongol Horde knew what they were doing; after throwing the plague-infected corpses over the walls, by catapult, they packed up and left. The ensuing plague epidemic killed more than twenty five percent of Europe’s population. Hard times call for hard measures carried out by harder people.

So why are religion and politics so intertwined and which caused the wars and which was pre-eminent in survival. There is much, much more to this story but this is a small start on why religion always seems to be in the midst of war and politics.

What say you?