Sacred Space and the Trivialisation of God
Apr 28, 2019 14:35:37 #
Sacred Space and the Trivialisation of God
By Bill Muehlenberg - April 28, 2019
Have you noticed? Most new evangelical churches in the West today are deliberately being made NOT to look like a church. They look just like any other building – and that is being done on purpose. There is nothing about the building to indicate that it might in fact be a place of Christian worship.
For example, almost always there is no cross to be found anywhere. And even the name is designed to play down any Christian connotation. Thus we have things like ‘CityLife’ or ‘OceanView’ or ‘RiverSide’ or some other nondescript name. Gone are the days of the ‘First Baptist Church’ or the ‘Park Street Lutheran Church,’ etc.
And of course things are just the same inside: you would have no idea the building is a house of worship. It looks a lot like a nightclub or a disco, complete with black walls, strobe lights, and smoke machines! And don’t forget the mandatory café. Now many people will choose a church based on who has the spiffiest and most expensive coffee machines!
All this is being done – it is claimed – to help bring in non-Christians; to make the church more seeker-sensitive; and to not scare away prospective visitors. We want to play down any Christian symbolism and messaging, in order to make things less scary for the non-Christian. At least those are the sorts of claims being made.
But are these folks right? Are these sorts of strategies really serving the gospel, bringing in non-believers, and winning the lost? One can ask some real hard questions here. As far as the seeker-sensitive service goes, some of those most heavily into this over the years have now come out and admitted that this has really been a failed strategy.
As I wrote in a 2007 article concerning Bill Hybels and the Willow Creek Community Church, it just has not lived up to all the hype: billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/
I write all this in light of the Notre Dame fire, and recent church attacks. I already penned an entire piece to say that yes of course, God lives in the hearts of his people, not in buildings. However, there is a place for the Christian to appreciate great art, including great architecture and great cathedrals. See that earlier piece here: billmuehlenberg.com/2019/04/17/cathedrals-catholics-and-christianity/
But I was reminded again of all this when I was revisiting a great book penned by R. C. Sproul, The Holiness of God. I have already used it in several recent pieces, including this one: billmuehlenberg.com/2019/04/24/sproul-on-gods-holy-justice/
The last chapter in that superb book is entitled “Holy Space and Holy Time”. In it he reminds us of the importance of seeing God as who he really is: holy and transcendent. Sure, he is also personal and immanent, especially through Christ. And for that we should all be so very thankful. See here for more on this: billmuehlenberg.com/2013/08/05/on-gods-immanence-and-transcendence/
But modern Christians have tended to lose sight of God’s transcendence and his holiness. We have tended to trivialise God and make him just like one of us, instead of who he really is. Sproul also looks at the issue of church architecture and why it matters. His words show us why we may be doing God a real disservice with our dumbed-downed and desacralised church buildings.
He says this: “Humanity seems to be incurably homo religiosis.” He explains: “people have always looked for a window or door to the transcendent. We seek a threshold that will lead us over the border from the profane to the sacred. It is a quest for sacred space, for ground that is holy ground.”
He looks at various Old Testament theophanies and appearances of God, including the episode of Moses at the Burning Bush. He writes: “In Moses’ encounter with God in the wilderness, he experienced a threshold to holy space.” He continues:
The holy space Moses occupied was made holy by God’s presence. The composition of the earth at this spot was no different from the earth on the rest of the desert floor. The sacred character of this spot was not intrinsic but extrinsic. That is, it was made sacred by a super-added presence. The event that occurred there loaned an extraordinary dimension to the ordinary. The common space had become uncommon by virtue of God’s appearance at that spot. Yes, that is such an important point, especially for contemporary Western Christians to keep in mind. Sproul then looks at the matter of church buildings. Yes, he acknowledges that the church is made up of God’s people, not just buildings. However, he continues:
Church architecture varies. Every church building communicates some kind of nonverbal message. In the past, the Gothic cathedral was designed to focus attention on God’s transcendence. The use of high ceilings, vaulted space, towers, and spires all served to communicate that in this building, people met with the holy. While some contemporary church buildings still use spires and vaulted ceilings to suggest God’s awesome holiness, other church buildings have been designed to create a fellowship facility. These churches can look more like town meeting halls or even theaters. In some of these churches, the sanctuary becomes a stage, and the congregation becomes an audience. The trend may be seen as a profanation of sacred space to remove any discomfort suggested by the presence and the terror of our holy God. In these settings people are comfortable with other people as they enjoy fellowship with one another. What is often lost in these functional church designs is the profound sense of threshold. A threshold is a place of transition. It signals a change from one realm to another….
I could close here and again recommend that you all get his book and study it carefully. But just today in my news feed I saw that the latest Breakpoint article by John Stonestreet and G. Shane Morris deals with this very same topic. Entitled “Sacred Spaces Matter,” and with this subtitle, “Beauty Calls the World to God,” it makes the same points that Sproul had made. Let me quote the second half of his article.
Godless governments, racists, radical Islamists, and common arsonists seem to understand that places matter, especially sacred spaces. But before the smoke had even cleared above Notre Dame last week, well-meaning Christians took to social media to remind us that the Church isn’t a building, it’s a people.
Of course, that’s true… in the same way that a family isn’t a house. But that doesn’t make it less tragic, painful, or awful when someone’s house burns down! Why are so many, especially evangelical Christian, so quick to dismiss the importance and value of tangible beauty and creative expression, including sacred space?
Since the very first days of the early church, Christians have struggled with the temptation to stray into a Gnostic way of thinking. Gnosticism takes various forms, but believes that the material world is ultimately bad, and therefore only “spiritual” things matter.
Terrorists, racists, and vandals attack sacred space because of what it means, not only to those who worship but to the histories of the communities in which they exist. Sacred space is defined by a purpose, set aside for the worship of God. When the early Christians were finally free to publicly worship, they responded by setting aside space for corporate and individual worship, some that are amazing feats of architecture and design. For two millennia Christians sought to fill these spaces with beauty—in art, song, and in reverence. It’s an amazing heritage.
The fact that so many churches today are seen primarily as functional spaces, and therefore made to look like shopping malls or performance venues, suggests that we’ve lost something. Charles Taylor called it “disenchantment.” That’s a fancy way of describing how a sacramental view of reality has been replaced by an efficient, functional view.
Of course, true worship often happens in plain, simple buildings. The book of Acts describes a pretty amazing worship service once held in a Philippian jail. Still, the human impulse to beautify spaces, and to mourn the loss of spaces points to a truth about God and ourselves.
Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoyevsky may have overstated it when he said “beauty will save the world,” but to downplay the loss of beauty is to miss something very important about ourselves and our world.
No, buildings aren’t the Church. But in a time when attacking church buildings has become a favorite means of attacking God, His people, and even cultural order, we should never forget what even arsonists and vandals know: that beauty matters, and stones can sometimes preach.
www.breakpoint.org/2019/04/breakpoint-sacred-spaces-matter/
Quite so. In an age in which God is being trivialised and the sacred is being profaned, Christians of all people should be resolutely resisting this trend. And that would include the temptation to make our churches look like just any old pagan disco or nightclub.
Let me finish with some words by Donald McCullough from his important 1995 volume, The Trivialization of God. In his opening chapter he says this:
Visit a church on Sunday morning – almost any will do – and you will likely find a congregation comfortably relating to a deity who fits nicely within precise doctrinal positions, or who lends almighty support to social crusades, or who conforms to individual spiritual experiences. But you will not likely find much awe or sense of mystery. The only sweaty palms will be those of the preacher unsure whether the sermon will go over; the only shaking knees will be those of the soloist about to sing the offertory.
The New Testament warns us, “offer to God an acceptable worship with reverence and awe; for indeed our God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12: 28-29). But reverence and awe have often been replaced by a yawn of familiarity. The consuming fire has been domesticated into a candle flame, adding a bit of religious atmosphere, perhaps, but no heat, no blinding light, no power for purification…. The worst sin of the church at the end of the twentieth century has been the trivialization of God.
And how many contemporary church buildings and services contribute greatly to this trivialisation?
By Bill Muehlenberg - April 28, 2019
Have you noticed? Most new evangelical churches in the West today are deliberately being made NOT to look like a church. They look just like any other building – and that is being done on purpose. There is nothing about the building to indicate that it might in fact be a place of Christian worship.
For example, almost always there is no cross to be found anywhere. And even the name is designed to play down any Christian connotation. Thus we have things like ‘CityLife’ or ‘OceanView’ or ‘RiverSide’ or some other nondescript name. Gone are the days of the ‘First Baptist Church’ or the ‘Park Street Lutheran Church,’ etc.
And of course things are just the same inside: you would have no idea the building is a house of worship. It looks a lot like a nightclub or a disco, complete with black walls, strobe lights, and smoke machines! And don’t forget the mandatory café. Now many people will choose a church based on who has the spiffiest and most expensive coffee machines!
All this is being done – it is claimed – to help bring in non-Christians; to make the church more seeker-sensitive; and to not scare away prospective visitors. We want to play down any Christian symbolism and messaging, in order to make things less scary for the non-Christian. At least those are the sorts of claims being made.
But are these folks right? Are these sorts of strategies really serving the gospel, bringing in non-believers, and winning the lost? One can ask some real hard questions here. As far as the seeker-sensitive service goes, some of those most heavily into this over the years have now come out and admitted that this has really been a failed strategy.
As I wrote in a 2007 article concerning Bill Hybels and the Willow Creek Community Church, it just has not lived up to all the hype: billmuehlenberg.com/2007/10/31/a-major-rethink-on-church-growth/
I write all this in light of the Notre Dame fire, and recent church attacks. I already penned an entire piece to say that yes of course, God lives in the hearts of his people, not in buildings. However, there is a place for the Christian to appreciate great art, including great architecture and great cathedrals. See that earlier piece here: billmuehlenberg.com/2019/04/17/cathedrals-catholics-and-christianity/
But I was reminded again of all this when I was revisiting a great book penned by R. C. Sproul, The Holiness of God. I have already used it in several recent pieces, including this one: billmuehlenberg.com/2019/04/24/sproul-on-gods-holy-justice/
The last chapter in that superb book is entitled “Holy Space and Holy Time”. In it he reminds us of the importance of seeing God as who he really is: holy and transcendent. Sure, he is also personal and immanent, especially through Christ. And for that we should all be so very thankful. See here for more on this: billmuehlenberg.com/2013/08/05/on-gods-immanence-and-transcendence/
But modern Christians have tended to lose sight of God’s transcendence and his holiness. We have tended to trivialise God and make him just like one of us, instead of who he really is. Sproul also looks at the issue of church architecture and why it matters. His words show us why we may be doing God a real disservice with our dumbed-downed and desacralised church buildings.
He says this: “Humanity seems to be incurably homo religiosis.” He explains: “people have always looked for a window or door to the transcendent. We seek a threshold that will lead us over the border from the profane to the sacred. It is a quest for sacred space, for ground that is holy ground.”
He looks at various Old Testament theophanies and appearances of God, including the episode of Moses at the Burning Bush. He writes: “In Moses’ encounter with God in the wilderness, he experienced a threshold to holy space.” He continues:
The holy space Moses occupied was made holy by God’s presence. The composition of the earth at this spot was no different from the earth on the rest of the desert floor. The sacred character of this spot was not intrinsic but extrinsic. That is, it was made sacred by a super-added presence. The event that occurred there loaned an extraordinary dimension to the ordinary. The common space had become uncommon by virtue of God’s appearance at that spot. Yes, that is such an important point, especially for contemporary Western Christians to keep in mind. Sproul then looks at the matter of church buildings. Yes, he acknowledges that the church is made up of God’s people, not just buildings. However, he continues:
Church architecture varies. Every church building communicates some kind of nonverbal message. In the past, the Gothic cathedral was designed to focus attention on God’s transcendence. The use of high ceilings, vaulted space, towers, and spires all served to communicate that in this building, people met with the holy. While some contemporary church buildings still use spires and vaulted ceilings to suggest God’s awesome holiness, other church buildings have been designed to create a fellowship facility. These churches can look more like town meeting halls or even theaters. In some of these churches, the sanctuary becomes a stage, and the congregation becomes an audience. The trend may be seen as a profanation of sacred space to remove any discomfort suggested by the presence and the terror of our holy God. In these settings people are comfortable with other people as they enjoy fellowship with one another. What is often lost in these functional church designs is the profound sense of threshold. A threshold is a place of transition. It signals a change from one realm to another….
I could close here and again recommend that you all get his book and study it carefully. But just today in my news feed I saw that the latest Breakpoint article by John Stonestreet and G. Shane Morris deals with this very same topic. Entitled “Sacred Spaces Matter,” and with this subtitle, “Beauty Calls the World to God,” it makes the same points that Sproul had made. Let me quote the second half of his article.
Godless governments, racists, radical Islamists, and common arsonists seem to understand that places matter, especially sacred spaces. But before the smoke had even cleared above Notre Dame last week, well-meaning Christians took to social media to remind us that the Church isn’t a building, it’s a people.
Of course, that’s true… in the same way that a family isn’t a house. But that doesn’t make it less tragic, painful, or awful when someone’s house burns down! Why are so many, especially evangelical Christian, so quick to dismiss the importance and value of tangible beauty and creative expression, including sacred space?
Since the very first days of the early church, Christians have struggled with the temptation to stray into a Gnostic way of thinking. Gnosticism takes various forms, but believes that the material world is ultimately bad, and therefore only “spiritual” things matter.
Terrorists, racists, and vandals attack sacred space because of what it means, not only to those who worship but to the histories of the communities in which they exist. Sacred space is defined by a purpose, set aside for the worship of God. When the early Christians were finally free to publicly worship, they responded by setting aside space for corporate and individual worship, some that are amazing feats of architecture and design. For two millennia Christians sought to fill these spaces with beauty—in art, song, and in reverence. It’s an amazing heritage.
The fact that so many churches today are seen primarily as functional spaces, and therefore made to look like shopping malls or performance venues, suggests that we’ve lost something. Charles Taylor called it “disenchantment.” That’s a fancy way of describing how a sacramental view of reality has been replaced by an efficient, functional view.
Of course, true worship often happens in plain, simple buildings. The book of Acts describes a pretty amazing worship service once held in a Philippian jail. Still, the human impulse to beautify spaces, and to mourn the loss of spaces points to a truth about God and ourselves.
Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoyevsky may have overstated it when he said “beauty will save the world,” but to downplay the loss of beauty is to miss something very important about ourselves and our world.
No, buildings aren’t the Church. But in a time when attacking church buildings has become a favorite means of attacking God, His people, and even cultural order, we should never forget what even arsonists and vandals know: that beauty matters, and stones can sometimes preach.
www.breakpoint.org/2019/04/breakpoint-sacred-spaces-matter/
Quite so. In an age in which God is being trivialised and the sacred is being profaned, Christians of all people should be resolutely resisting this trend. And that would include the temptation to make our churches look like just any old pagan disco or nightclub.
Let me finish with some words by Donald McCullough from his important 1995 volume, The Trivialization of God. In his opening chapter he says this:
Visit a church on Sunday morning – almost any will do – and you will likely find a congregation comfortably relating to a deity who fits nicely within precise doctrinal positions, or who lends almighty support to social crusades, or who conforms to individual spiritual experiences. But you will not likely find much awe or sense of mystery. The only sweaty palms will be those of the preacher unsure whether the sermon will go over; the only shaking knees will be those of the soloist about to sing the offertory.
The New Testament warns us, “offer to God an acceptable worship with reverence and awe; for indeed our God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12: 28-29). But reverence and awe have often been replaced by a yawn of familiarity. The consuming fire has been domesticated into a candle flame, adding a bit of religious atmosphere, perhaps, but no heat, no blinding light, no power for purification…. The worst sin of the church at the end of the twentieth century has been the trivialization of God.
And how many contemporary church buildings and services contribute greatly to this trivialisation?
Apr 28, 2019 16:48:02 #
lpnmajor
Loc: Arkansas
bahmer wrote:
Sacred Space and the Trivialisation of God br By B... (show quote)
People care more about the bells and whistles than they do about connecting with the Holy Spirit. IMHO, those who meet in a cow barn, are much more likely to find the Spirit in attendance then those meeting in a multi million dollar, modern, architecturally unique sanctuary.
One cannot entice God's Holy Spirit with riches, one must approach with humility and humbleness, a condition humans aren't born knowing how to do, and lack the desire to learn.
Apr 29, 2019 12:56:51 #
padremike
Loc: Phenix City, Al
lpnmajor wrote:
People care more about the bells and whistles than they do about connecting with the Holy Spirit. IMHO, those who meet in a cow barn, are much more likely to find the Spirit in attendance then those meeting in a multi million dollar, modern, architecturally unique sanctuary.
One cannot entice God's Holy Spirit with riches, one must approach with humility and humbleness, a condition humans aren't born knowing how to do, and lack the desire to learn.
One cannot entice God's Holy Spirit with riches, one must approach with humility and humbleness, a condition humans aren't born knowing how to do, and lack the desire to learn.
What do you think the temple in Jerusalem was like where Jesus worshipped? Building a beautiful house of worship is done for and to the glory of God to give God Worth Ship (worship). Mankind uses all his senses in his worship of God as well be should. I expect a non liturgical church could meet in a barn or a living room while a liturgical church, in normal times, expressed her reverent worship in a temple set aside for the souls purpose. If the Holy Spirit can lead man to build hospitals He can also lead man to build beautiful houses of worship and He has. I agree that there is a huge difference between a church and a recreation center with an attached church.
May 6, 2019 10:24:55 #
What an astute observation.
Christianity was born with Christ in a humble "cow barn" in Bethlehem.
It is manmade religious movements, manmade denominations, teaching the doctrines made by men, that require their congregation be smothered in manmade beauty, manmade ritual, manmade ceremony, to disguise the glaring absence of the Holy Spirit, and to divert those who are sincerely seeking to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Christianity was born with Christ in a humble "cow barn" in Bethlehem.
It is manmade religious movements, manmade denominations, teaching the doctrines made by men, that require their congregation be smothered in manmade beauty, manmade ritual, manmade ceremony, to disguise the glaring absence of the Holy Spirit, and to divert those who are sincerely seeking to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
lpnmajor wrote:
People care more about the bells and whistles than they do about connecting with the Holy Spirit. IMHO, those who meet in a cow barn, are much more likely to find the Spirit in attendance then those meeting in a multi million dollar, modern, architecturally unique sanctuary.
One cannot entice God's Holy Spirit with riches, one must approach with humility and humbleness, a condition humans aren't born knowing how to do, and lack the desire to learn.
One cannot entice God's Holy Spirit with riches, one must approach with humility and humbleness, a condition humans aren't born knowing how to do, and lack the desire to learn.
May 6, 2019 11:01:17 #
padremike
Loc: Phenix City, Al
Zemirah wrote:
What an astute observation.
Christianity was born with Christ in a humble "cow barn" in Bethlehem.
It is manmade religious movements, manmade denominations, teaching the doctrines made by men, that require their congregation be smothered in manmade beauty, manmade ritual, manmade ceremony, to disguise the glaring absence of the Holy Spirit, and to divert those who are sincerely seeking to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Christianity was born with Christ in a humble "cow barn" in Bethlehem.
It is manmade religious movements, manmade denominations, teaching the doctrines made by men, that require their congregation be smothered in manmade beauty, manmade ritual, manmade ceremony, to disguise the glaring absence of the Holy Spirit, and to divert those who are sincerely seeking to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Get out of your comfort place and drag yourself back into your holy barn. Christ was born in one but He didn't stay there.
May 6, 2019 11:24:41 #
The Temple in Jerusalem was unique. It was built to God's own exacting instructions, to house the Holy of Holies.
The Holy of Holies is a term in the Hebrew Bible which refers to the inner sanctuary of the Tabernacle where God dwelt.
The Holy of Holies was a perfect cube, and contained the Ark of the Covenant. The terms "Most Holy Place" and "Holy of Holies" are interchangeable, depending on the version of the Bible one uses. According to the law God gave Moses, only the High Priest could enter the Most Holy Place, and only once per year on the Day of Atonement, he was permitted to enter the square, windowless enclosure to burn incense and sprinkle sacrificial animal blood as an atonement for the sins of the congregation.(Yom Kippur).
The Holy of Holies was separated from the rest of the tabernacle/temple by the veil, a huge, heavy drape made of fine linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn and embroidered with gold cherubim. God said that He would appear in the Holy of Holies (Leviticus 16:2); hence, the need for the veil.
‘... Josephus reported that the veil was four inches thick, was renewed every year, and that horses tied to each side could not pull it apart. It bared all but the High Priest from the presence of God, but when it was torn in two at the death of Jesus of Nazareth access to God was made available to all who come through Him.’
Matthew 27:50-51 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
There are several New Testament scriptures that now encourage believers to move beyond the veil (see Ephesians 2:13-18; Hebrews 4:14-16; 6:19; 10:19-22).
Many believers stop at the brazen altar in the outer court. They are happy to be saved but have no desire to go further. Others learn to spiritually feed on Christ and grow as they move into the Holy Place. This is good but as the scriptures above indicate, God desires for us to come into the Holies of Holies.
Jesus entered the heavenly tabernacle by His own blood and in contrast to the earthly High Priest, Jesus sprinkled His own blood upon the heavenly mercy seat to make eternal redemption and atonement! The impact of this act is given to us in the book of Romans and Hebrews. Romans tells us that Jesus was -
‘...displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.’ (Romans 3:25-26)
The word ‘propitiation’ in the passage above is the same word translated as ‘mercy seat’ in Hebrews 9:5. Jesus fulfilled that to which the earthly mercy seat in the Holy of Holies pointed! His blood brought peace and forgiveness for those that have placed their faith in Him.
Elaborate manmade surroundings, ritual and ceremony are not commanded by God today. They feed the ego and self righteousness of religious leaders who pose as a gateway to the divine; men who seek to usurp the position of Jesus Christ, who is the only gateway and the sole mediator between men and God.
Now the humblest believer can enter God's presence in prayer and praise at any time.
The more humble cow barns are utilized as places of worship, the healthier Christianity will become.
http://jesusplusnothing.com
The Believers Bible Commentary
The Ryrie Study Bible
The Holy of Holies is a term in the Hebrew Bible which refers to the inner sanctuary of the Tabernacle where God dwelt.
The Holy of Holies was a perfect cube, and contained the Ark of the Covenant. The terms "Most Holy Place" and "Holy of Holies" are interchangeable, depending on the version of the Bible one uses. According to the law God gave Moses, only the High Priest could enter the Most Holy Place, and only once per year on the Day of Atonement, he was permitted to enter the square, windowless enclosure to burn incense and sprinkle sacrificial animal blood as an atonement for the sins of the congregation.(Yom Kippur).
The Holy of Holies was separated from the rest of the tabernacle/temple by the veil, a huge, heavy drape made of fine linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn and embroidered with gold cherubim. God said that He would appear in the Holy of Holies (Leviticus 16:2); hence, the need for the veil.
‘... Josephus reported that the veil was four inches thick, was renewed every year, and that horses tied to each side could not pull it apart. It bared all but the High Priest from the presence of God, but when it was torn in two at the death of Jesus of Nazareth access to God was made available to all who come through Him.’
Matthew 27:50-51 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
There are several New Testament scriptures that now encourage believers to move beyond the veil (see Ephesians 2:13-18; Hebrews 4:14-16; 6:19; 10:19-22).
Many believers stop at the brazen altar in the outer court. They are happy to be saved but have no desire to go further. Others learn to spiritually feed on Christ and grow as they move into the Holy Place. This is good but as the scriptures above indicate, God desires for us to come into the Holies of Holies.
Jesus entered the heavenly tabernacle by His own blood and in contrast to the earthly High Priest, Jesus sprinkled His own blood upon the heavenly mercy seat to make eternal redemption and atonement! The impact of this act is given to us in the book of Romans and Hebrews. Romans tells us that Jesus was -
‘...displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.’ (Romans 3:25-26)
The word ‘propitiation’ in the passage above is the same word translated as ‘mercy seat’ in Hebrews 9:5. Jesus fulfilled that to which the earthly mercy seat in the Holy of Holies pointed! His blood brought peace and forgiveness for those that have placed their faith in Him.
Elaborate manmade surroundings, ritual and ceremony are not commanded by God today. They feed the ego and self righteousness of religious leaders who pose as a gateway to the divine; men who seek to usurp the position of Jesus Christ, who is the only gateway and the sole mediator between men and God.
Now the humblest believer can enter God's presence in prayer and praise at any time.
The more humble cow barns are utilized as places of worship, the healthier Christianity will become.
http://jesusplusnothing.com
The Believers Bible Commentary
The Ryrie Study Bible
padremike wrote:
What do you think the temple in Jerusalem was like... (show quote)
May 6, 2019 11:31:41 #
Zemirah wrote:
What an astute observation.
Christianity was born with Christ in a humble "cow barn" in Bethlehem.
It is manmade religious movements, manmade denominations, teaching the doctrines made by men, that require their congregation be smothered in manmade beauty, manmade ritual, manmade ceremony, to disguise the glaring absence of the Holy Spirit, and to divert those who are sincerely seeking to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Christianity was born with Christ in a humble "cow barn" in Bethlehem.
It is manmade religious movements, manmade denominations, teaching the doctrines made by men, that require their congregation be smothered in manmade beauty, manmade ritual, manmade ceremony, to disguise the glaring absence of the Holy Spirit, and to divert those who are sincerely seeking to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
I remember an interview with Leonard Ravenhill and he was talking about some of the prayer meetings they had and where. Never anything fancy. He was lamenting the lack of the Holy Spirit in most churches today.
May 6, 2019 12:07:32 #
padremike
Loc: Phenix City, Al
Zemirah wrote:
The Temple in Jerusalem was unique. It was built t... (show quote)
The Holy Spirit, according to you, could lead the Jews to build a temple for God to enter, but with the advent of Christianity the Holy Spirit, now dwelling in Christians, should discouraged Christians to build beautiful places of worship for them to gather as the Body of Christ. I thank God that you and i are so far removed from the worship of The Blessed and Holy Trinity as to be practically unrecognizable. Yet I continue to follow Christ's example and pray daily that we all may be one.
May 6, 2019 12:26:52 #
padremike
Loc: Phenix City, Al
Rose42 wrote:
I remember an interview with Leonard Ravenhill and he was talking about some of the prayer meetings they had and where. Never anything fancy. He was lamenting the lack of the Holy Spirit in most churches today.
No question that compromising churches, and there are many of them, have kicked out sacred religion and replaced it with social religion. One thing that I always found curious about prayer meetings and preaching by itinerant tent revival preachers, always invited to preach, is in the truth that we try to revive something when it is dying. Maybe revival is a poor choice of words?
May 6, 2019 14:39:57 #
This is Christ's example of prayer:
Luke 5:16 Yet He frequently withdrew to the wilderness to pray.
Luke 6:12 One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.
Mark 1:35 Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.
Matthew 14:23 After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone.
Luke 22:41-44 He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed,
In the Old Testament the LORD God had a temple for His people; however, in the New Testament He has His people for a temple.
1 Kings 6: God ordered the building of the Jerusalem Temple.
"In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites left Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, during the month Ziv (the second month), he began building the Lord’s temple.
2 The temple King Solomon built for the Lord was 90 feet long, 30 feet wide, and 45 feet high.
3 The porch in front of the main hall of the temple was 30 feet long, corresponding to the width of the temple. It was 15 feet wide, extending out from the front of the temple.
7 As the temple was being built, only stones shaped at the quarry were used; the sound of hammers, pickaxes, or any other iron tool was not heard at the temple while it was being built.
8 The entrance to the bottom level of side rooms was on the south side of the temple; stairs went up to the middle floor and then on up to the third floor.
9 He finished building the temple and covered it with rafters and boards made of cedar.
11 The Lord said to Solomon: 12 “As for this temple you are building, if you follow my rules, observe my regulations, and obey all my commandments, I will fulfill through you the promise I made to your father David. 13 I will live among the Israelites and will not abandon my people Israel.”
14 So Solomon finished building the temple.
Under the Old Testament, the temple of God was a house made with hands, a worldly sanctuary.
The New Testament reckons the people of God to be his temple, "the habitation of God in the Spirit." At Corinth there were many temples to the pagan gods, but only one temple of God. And the former were of dead stones, however beautiful to the eye.
The apostle Paul taught, “You are the temple of God” (I Corinthians. 3:16). The reason he can say that is because we have been redeemed by the death of Jesus Christ. Because of redemption, the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in the redeemed.
In the old Testament under the law, the tabernacle and later the temple were given over entirely to God for His sacred use.
They were called "holy" because they were separated and used for His purpose and glory alone. It symbolized the house of God on the earth. Under the New Testament of grace, the Christian is now called God's temple. The believer must yield his or her whole life without reserve to God.
The indwelling Holy Spirit, a living person, a divine presence, is God’s means of reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Corinthians 5:17).
In the Old Testament, God took possession of His temple and indwelt it so He could bless His people and they in turn bless the world. The Holy Spirit assumes residence in the temple of your body, and begins the re-creation of Christ to the glory of the Father. One by one, as we yield to His sovereignty, He is changing the world. He gives us “whole new strength and vitality. He brings us to the fullness of His life.”
From the moment you believe on Christ as your Savior, the Spirit of God dwells in you (Romans 8:9). "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" (Romans 8:11).
The apostle Paul clearly has in mind the glory of God filling the temple. Therefore, as the glory filled the temple of old, so the Holy Spirit dwells with the believer of Jesus Christ. “He dwells in you.” When a sinner has been born spiritually, God dwells in that holy place and that person can commune in fellowship with the LORD God in holiness. The Holy Spirit is a living person in the Godhead, who literally indwells us. The dwelling of the Holy Spirit in our bodies is a real indwelling of a real individual, spiritual person. That divine person is very God of very God; equal with the Father and the Son.
To the obedient disciple, Jesus promised that He and the Father “will come unto him and make our abode with Him” (John 14:23). That alone is the secret of the normal Christian life.
Thank God, indeed.
https://www.biblegateway.com
http://www.abideinchrist.com
Luke 5:16 Yet He frequently withdrew to the wilderness to pray.
Luke 6:12 One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.
Mark 1:35 Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.
Matthew 14:23 After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone.
Luke 22:41-44 He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed,
In the Old Testament the LORD God had a temple for His people; however, in the New Testament He has His people for a temple.
1 Kings 6: God ordered the building of the Jerusalem Temple.
"In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites left Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, during the month Ziv (the second month), he began building the Lord’s temple.
2 The temple King Solomon built for the Lord was 90 feet long, 30 feet wide, and 45 feet high.
3 The porch in front of the main hall of the temple was 30 feet long, corresponding to the width of the temple. It was 15 feet wide, extending out from the front of the temple.
7 As the temple was being built, only stones shaped at the quarry were used; the sound of hammers, pickaxes, or any other iron tool was not heard at the temple while it was being built.
8 The entrance to the bottom level of side rooms was on the south side of the temple; stairs went up to the middle floor and then on up to the third floor.
9 He finished building the temple and covered it with rafters and boards made of cedar.
11 The Lord said to Solomon: 12 “As for this temple you are building, if you follow my rules, observe my regulations, and obey all my commandments, I will fulfill through you the promise I made to your father David. 13 I will live among the Israelites and will not abandon my people Israel.”
14 So Solomon finished building the temple.
Under the Old Testament, the temple of God was a house made with hands, a worldly sanctuary.
The New Testament reckons the people of God to be his temple, "the habitation of God in the Spirit." At Corinth there were many temples to the pagan gods, but only one temple of God. And the former were of dead stones, however beautiful to the eye.
The apostle Paul taught, “You are the temple of God” (I Corinthians. 3:16). The reason he can say that is because we have been redeemed by the death of Jesus Christ. Because of redemption, the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in the redeemed.
In the old Testament under the law, the tabernacle and later the temple were given over entirely to God for His sacred use.
They were called "holy" because they were separated and used for His purpose and glory alone. It symbolized the house of God on the earth. Under the New Testament of grace, the Christian is now called God's temple. The believer must yield his or her whole life without reserve to God.
The indwelling Holy Spirit, a living person, a divine presence, is God’s means of reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Corinthians 5:17).
In the Old Testament, God took possession of His temple and indwelt it so He could bless His people and they in turn bless the world. The Holy Spirit assumes residence in the temple of your body, and begins the re-creation of Christ to the glory of the Father. One by one, as we yield to His sovereignty, He is changing the world. He gives us “whole new strength and vitality. He brings us to the fullness of His life.”
From the moment you believe on Christ as your Savior, the Spirit of God dwells in you (Romans 8:9). "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" (Romans 8:11).
The apostle Paul clearly has in mind the glory of God filling the temple. Therefore, as the glory filled the temple of old, so the Holy Spirit dwells with the believer of Jesus Christ. “He dwells in you.” When a sinner has been born spiritually, God dwells in that holy place and that person can commune in fellowship with the LORD God in holiness. The Holy Spirit is a living person in the Godhead, who literally indwells us. The dwelling of the Holy Spirit in our bodies is a real indwelling of a real individual, spiritual person. That divine person is very God of very God; equal with the Father and the Son.
To the obedient disciple, Jesus promised that He and the Father “will come unto him and make our abode with Him” (John 14:23). That alone is the secret of the normal Christian life.
Thank God, indeed.
https://www.biblegateway.com
http://www.abideinchrist.com
padremike wrote:
The Holy Spirit, according to you, could lead the Jews to build a temple for God to enter, but with the advent of Christianity the Holy Spirit, now dwelling in Christians, should discouraged Christians to build beautiful places of worship for them to gather as the Body of Christ. I thank God that you and i are so far removed from the worship of The Blessed and Holy Trinity as to be practically unrecognizable. Yet I continue to follow Christ's example and pray daily that we all may be one.
May 6, 2019 15:22:58 #
Zemirah wrote:
This is Christ's example of prayer: br br Luke 5:... (show quote)
Amen and Amen thanks for those Zemirah.
May 6, 2019 15:46:56 #
padremike
Loc: Phenix City, Al
Zemirah wrote:
This is Christ's example of prayer: br br Luke 5:... (show quote)
So, the Temple was made with hands as was the Tabernacle. So what? Can you point out a structure anywhere that was personally hand made by God? I can. There are magnificent structures across this entire world built by hands to the glory of God. Can you point to a single person that God the Holy Spirit has fed? I can; they are all around us. Christians possess the hands, hearts, feet, eyes, and Spirit God uses in this world to help their neighbors. Furthermore, Jesus spent the majority of His time teaching His Apostles not preaching. If you believe you possess the Holy Spirit in the same fullness as the Apostles you are in error. Why would Jesus have spent the time He did if, on Pentecost, everyone would receive the same understanding and gifts as the Apostles? To this end, you have departed from the Apostolic faith and you use the Holy Spirit as your own private authority to justify what you personally believe. That's your choice.
May 6, 2019 18:30:22 #
Jesus Christ alone holds all authority over the church, filling many positions: Savior, High Priest, King, and Prophet; The Head of the Church.
The Apostles were unique; personally chosen by Jesus Christ, with a one time mission of writing down the New Testament, with His words, as inspired by the Holy Spirit. The primary purpose of the extraordinary offices of prophet and Apostle was to lay down foundational normative truths for the church as superintended by God in the writing of the Old and New Testaments. Therefore, these offices, like the work of laying down a foundation for a house, need not be done repeatedly. These offices have ceased because the writing of Scripture has been completed, and nothing shall ever be added or taken away from it.
When their mission ended, and they were all departed from this life, the office of Apostleship ended.
The church is more than an office or organization; it is a living organism. The head of the church, Jesus Christ, nourishes the church, giving it spiritual life.
The offices of leadership in the Body of Christ are spelled out in the book of Timothy and Titus.
We must understand the various roles and offices that are a part of God’s design for the New Testament church. We must be careful that we do not become guilty of "adding to" God’s pattern by adding creating more offices. However, we must also fill the appropriate positions with qualified people, lest we be part of a church that still has things "wanting" before God (Titus 1:5).
In addition to being disobedient to God’s will, perversion of His pattern for the church generates additional temptation, pressures, and finally, corruption that would not be present if we would "build all things according to His pattern".
In speaking of God, the Holy Spirit, the 3rd Person of the Trinity (Triune God), manifested as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, each one being God (1 John 5:7). The Holy Spirit performs God's power in action as seen in Luke 1:35, and His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus Christ (John 15:26).
You speak of the Holy Spirit as though He could be quantitatively measured in the same manner as a cup of flour.
The Holy Spirit has Personhood:The Holy Spirit is a Person because He has all of the components of personality: intellect, will, and emotion.
Therefore you either have the indwelling Holy Spirit - all of Him, or you don't.
God is not going to throw you another arm or another leg.
If you want the power of God to be more evident in your life, you need to give Him more of yourself.
Does every believer receive the same Holy Spirit, but different spiritual gifts, as the Holy Spirit decides?
Absolutely.
The Apostles were unique; personally chosen by Jesus Christ, with a one time mission of writing down the New Testament, with His words, as inspired by the Holy Spirit. The primary purpose of the extraordinary offices of prophet and Apostle was to lay down foundational normative truths for the church as superintended by God in the writing of the Old and New Testaments. Therefore, these offices, like the work of laying down a foundation for a house, need not be done repeatedly. These offices have ceased because the writing of Scripture has been completed, and nothing shall ever be added or taken away from it.
When their mission ended, and they were all departed from this life, the office of Apostleship ended.
The church is more than an office or organization; it is a living organism. The head of the church, Jesus Christ, nourishes the church, giving it spiritual life.
The offices of leadership in the Body of Christ are spelled out in the book of Timothy and Titus.
We must understand the various roles and offices that are a part of God’s design for the New Testament church. We must be careful that we do not become guilty of "adding to" God’s pattern by adding creating more offices. However, we must also fill the appropriate positions with qualified people, lest we be part of a church that still has things "wanting" before God (Titus 1:5).
In addition to being disobedient to God’s will, perversion of His pattern for the church generates additional temptation, pressures, and finally, corruption that would not be present if we would "build all things according to His pattern".
In speaking of God, the Holy Spirit, the 3rd Person of the Trinity (Triune God), manifested as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, each one being God (1 John 5:7). The Holy Spirit performs God's power in action as seen in Luke 1:35, and His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus Christ (John 15:26).
You speak of the Holy Spirit as though He could be quantitatively measured in the same manner as a cup of flour.
The Holy Spirit has Personhood:The Holy Spirit is a Person because He has all of the components of personality: intellect, will, and emotion.
Therefore you either have the indwelling Holy Spirit - all of Him, or you don't.
God is not going to throw you another arm or another leg.
If you want the power of God to be more evident in your life, you need to give Him more of yourself.
Does every believer receive the same Holy Spirit, but different spiritual gifts, as the Holy Spirit decides?
Absolutely.
padremike wrote:
So, the Temple was made with hands as was the Tabe... (show quote)
May 6, 2019 22:49:01 #
padremike
Loc: Phenix City, Al
Zemirah wrote:
Jesus Christ alone holds all authority over the ch... (show quote)
The apostles had a one time mission you say and you are correct and that one time mission was to last in perpetuity for all times. I'm glad to see you've adopted one of my standard comments that "nothing was to be added and nothing taken away." Shows you're trainable. The Apostles taught the first Christians the faith and consecrated their successors to continue in the Apostolic continuity after they were gone. Read your paper pope! it's there. Their successors today are those Bishops who remain in valid apostolic succession. At their consecration to become Bishops they have hands laid on them by other bishops, who have had hands laid on them traceable back to an Apostle, to specifically receive the Holy Spirit required to be an overseer, a shepherd, of Christ's Church. Of course you won't believe that either.....blinders!
I really find it amusing that someone like you believe they can school someone like me me on the Holy Spirit. You use Him like a hammer in exactly the same way you use Holy Scripture. You foolish woman, are you truly so arrogant that you don't think I know that The Holy Spirit is a Person? Weren't you curious that I always capitalize the word Truth? You do understand the significance? Do YOU know the difference between person and nature in explaining God? You won't find the answer in your bible but you will find it in the teachings of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church. Islam doesn't understand it and this is why they believe we are polytheistic .
Protestant clergy have no need to receive the Holy Spirit to be overseer of their cures because that is not their function. He, or "she", can preach, teach, and correct others as they individually believes and then "claim" The Holy Spirit is leading them and everyone, of course, believes them. Clergy in the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church are forbidden from doing that sort of thing because they are prohibited from either adding or taking away from that faith once delivered or giving their personal opinions on faith and practice.. Some have violated their sacred oath and found themselves in serious trouble. You believe Apostolic Tradition has no place in Christianity because modern scholars have successfully twisted Church history to favor their new teachings and you are led by them. That's your choice. I understand how that has happened since the time of Saint Paul. I will give modernists credit to understand that if Apostolic teachings are true, they have no authority as Protestant clergy to morally accept the duties, authority and responsibilities of valid apostolic clergy. The next best thing needed to elevate their cause was to demonize us. They used the Saul Alinsky method before Alinsky codified it and you frequently do likewise when you attack catholics, you'd just prefer to call it something else. I can't blame you. Odd these days to observe so many fundamentalist clergy adopt the title of Bishop and wear clerical garb. Maybe they just like to be called "father" when out in public where people don't know them. What do you think? I think they're confused because they know something is lacking. That something is called........worship!
We're not getting anywhere are we? So let's leave you worshipping in a barn and me along with hundreds of millions worshiping God in the beauty of holiness in a place built and dedicated to His glory surrounded by other Christians (His Church) worshipping Him and not just reading a few bible verses and discussing them. We have other functions for doing that sort of thing. However, I can't leave you believing we cannot worship God outside a beautiful church because many times in history the church has been forced to go underground and we survived and we continued to worship. Jesus said we would survive but that many hardships would come to us. I guess that's the cost of discipleship huh?
As usual, you're entertaining in your error. You're happy and comfortable being both a heretic and a schismatic and I'm blessed in being part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church, a worshiping church. I won't tell you you can't read and discuss your bible in a barn and you shouldn't tell other Christians they can't "worship" in beautiful churches built to give glory to God. You are free to follow what you believe to be the Holy Spirit and we will do the same without believing He accedes to our own interpretations and individual beliefs. It was, after all, a promise that He would lead us into all truth without any corrections modernism tacks on as an addendum. Peace be with you! 😁😁😁
May 7, 2019 07:27:44 #
Apostolic succession isn’t biblical and is a myth.
Zemirah is no heretic. The point is the building doesn’t matter and never has.
Zemirah is no heretic. The point is the building doesn’t matter and never has.
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