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Mar 22, 2018 18:14:26   #
debeda
 
gaconservative74 wrote:
I think that the major flaw in several of your posts is that you want the government to solve all of our problems and that will never happen in a free society. We call too much government control socialism or communism. This system doesn’t work. We need to focus on bringing up our children right. We have ruined our nation In One generation and taught them that the government will solve all the problems. Problem is, the government is a whole slew of rich elites that are out of touch with reality and want to spend their whole lives in government which makes them even further out of touch. Also, they spend half their time in office campaigning for re-election. That kinda pisses me off........ why doNt they do what they are pod to do? I bet my employer would send me packing if I spent half my time trying to get a job, but it’s exactly what they do. The government isn’t nor will ever be the answer to all our problems............ the family, nuclear family, is.
I think that the major flaw in several of your pos... (show quote)


Well said

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Mar 22, 2018 19:12:19   #
1ProudAmerican
 
moldyoldy wrote:
Trump agrees to one thing then talks to his handlers and backs out of what he said, and you blame democrats.


Yep, Like BOBO wanting to work with both parties for BOBO care....then, when McCain spoke, he told McCain that HE (BOBO) won the election so sit down and shut up. THAT's when I saw the TRUE BOBO ... Until then, I half-way liked him, but THAT was the beginning of the end.

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Mar 22, 2018 19:26:51   #
moldyoldy
 
1ProudAmerican wrote:
Yep, Like BOBO wanting to work with both parties for BOBO care....then, when McCain spoke, he told McCain that HE (BOBO) won the election so sit down and shut up. THAT's when I saw the TRUE BOBO ... Until then, I half-way liked him, but THAT was the beginning of the end.


Can you show me that?
Never mind I saw it , McCain was rambling on in a meeting and he said the election is over let's get back to the subject. McCain did the same thing trying to defend sessions from Kamala Harris.

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Mar 22, 2018 20:47:09   #
1ProudAmerican
 
moldyoldy wrote:
Can you show me that?
Never mind I saw it , McCain was rambling on in a meeting and he said the election is over let's get back to the subject. McCain did the same thing trying to defend sessions from Kamala Harris.




...as seen with a slanted eye

"Can you show me that?"
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-to-mccain-the-elections-over/

"rambling on"
The president was responding to McCain's comments in which he complained that the health care bill was not produced in the open, but "behind closed doors."
McCain complained of "unsavory" dealmaking to get the bill passed in the Senate, including promises to give special deals to residents of Louisiana, Nebraska and Florida.
He pointed to a number of issues, including the PhRMA deal and a provision mandating $100 million for a Connecticut hospital, asking "why should that happen?"
"People are angry," McCain said. "We promised them change in Washington, and what we got was a process that you and I both said we would change."
He called on Democrats to "go back to the beginning" and "remove all the special deals for the special interests and the favored few," adding that he favors a system in which "geography does not dictate what kind of health care."

Yah, THAT "rambling on"

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Mar 23, 2018 12:56:58   #
Manning345 Loc: Richmond, Virginia
 
Otisimo wrote:
All I can say is WOW! If you truly believe that list is accurate then there is no conversation that can be engaged in !
You are already brain washed and unwilling to hear anything you don’t like. You are painting with an incredibly wide brush and stereotyping millions of people as someone they most definitely are not. I feel sorry for you if you are truly that afraid of that many of your fellow citizens. Democratic voters are still Americans whether you think they should be or not. And for your information, if voters on the left like you describe even exist, they are a tiny minority as to be insignificant. Sheesh!
All I can say is WOW! If you truly believe that l... (show quote)


Do you see any difference between Progressive Leftists and Democrats? The list you criticized was primarily directed towards the far Left Progressives in today's world, not rational Democrats (when you can find them). But, if the shoe fits...

The point is that a large slice of the public is being herded towards the Left and Progressivism by the key poisonous leaders of the Democratic party, despite perhaps a majority of Democratic legislators being more moderately inclined and rational---perhaps, perhaps. The leaders seem to have full control of the Democrats, and never allow more moderate views to be given a hearing, much less voting their conscious opinions.

When such a large segment of voters are herded left, they are entering a mindset with actions that fractures our society, and they must accept that they are being drifted into revolutionary thinking and doing, and must take responsibility for their actions; they will be labeled as radicals and anti-American, anti-Constitution, obstructionists and anti-social, if not worse. There will always be a backlash when such a situation arises, resulting in a serious conflict, which is where we find ourselves today.

This is a deeply concerning and fundamental challenge to the American society, and it poses difficult, if not insurmountable, problems: Can we maintain the republic and its laws of the land that with few modifications have been in effect for 230-odd years, against the Leftist movement that has considerable numbers of adherents? A movement that directly challenges the Christian and Conservative, Republican tenets, and even the laws supported by the center and right half of the conflict, with the radical leftist collective ideas stemming from atheism, secular humanism, socialism, and communism.

Hillary Clinton declared herself to be a Progressive Democrat, and received a majority of the votes in 2016, so the slide left is not small at all. Thank God for the Electoral College! The label "Progressive" was adopted by American communists back in the 30's, I believe, so it has a huge negative connotation for many of us.

These progressive and collective Leftist ideas for governance of our Republic are simply not acceptable to many, if not most Americans, and they should be suppressed, discounted, and voted out.

"...You have a republic, if you can keep it!"---Ben Franklin

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Mar 23, 2018 15:04:48   #
Voice of Reason Loc: Earth
 
whitnebrat wrote:
The problem lies in profit margins for all kinds of organizations. First, the cost to your hospital or insurance provider is far greater if you get thrown out of the car on impact. Second, the rest figure that if you violate one law, you're more likely to violate some other one ... doesn't matter if it's true or not (cue the actuaries). Third, the rest follow suit for the same reasons, figuring that you're a financial risk because you will be more likely violate some law or regulation someday, not just in your vehicle.
Insurance isn't insurance any more. It's more an investment firm that seeks to maximize profits at the expense of the insured. It is supposed to be a pool of people that overall will average out to a net zero on their premiums vs. payouts. It ain't that way any more, and the insurance companies now are some of the biggest investors and landowners in the country. Their motto is 'charge more, pay less'. Whether Congress will fix this, I think you've already answered that question.
I figure that if you don't want to wear a seatbelt and want to go for a Darwin Award, that's your choice, but I would prefer not having to pick up the tab for that stupidity. Seatbelts do save lives, but I'm ambivalent about making you save yours.
The problem lies in profit margins for all kinds o... (show quote)


I'm glad the subject of seatbelt use was mentioned, because to me it is a good example of why freedom and socialism are mutually exclusive. In a free society, one would be free to choose whether or not to use a seatbelt. If injured in an accident, with or without a seatbelt, that person would use their own resources and insurance to pay for damages and medical bills.

In a socialistic society the general public is responsible for paying the cost of an accident, so the general public, or society, has not just a right, but an obligation to require the use of seatbelts in order to help reduce the costs associated with the accident.

Same with motorcycle helmets. And anti-drug laws. And soda bans. And...

Basically, when personal responsibility is replaced with socialism, society (government) is obligated to micro-manage everybody's life while everybody becomes poorer while paying for others' mistakes.

As for those mean old for-profit insurance companies, do you think their employees should be required to work for sub-minimum wage? Are you aware that there are non-profit insurance companies, and that they are usually more expensive than for-profit ones?

Finally, given your belief that conservatives are all for a patriarchal society where women are second-class citizens and men can do whatever they want, how do you feel about the left's obsession to remove every woman's ability to defend herself against a man, or group of men, who want to rape her?

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Mar 23, 2018 19:25:14   #
debeda
 
Voice of Reason wrote:
I'm glad the subject of seatbelt use was mentioned, because to me it is a good example of why freedom and socialism are mutually exclusive. In a free society, one would be free to choose whether or not to use a seatbelt. If injured in an accident, with or without a seatbelt, that person would use their own resources and insurance to pay for damages and medical bills.

In a socialistic society the general public is responsible for paying the cost of an accident, so the general public, or society, has not just a right, but an obligation to require the use of seatbelts in order to help reduce the costs associated with the accident.

Same with motorcycle helmets. And anti-drug laws. And soda bans. And...

Basically, when personal responsibility is replaced with socialism, society (government) is obligated to micro-manage everybody's life while everybody becomes poorer while paying for others' mistakes.

As for those mean old for-profit insurance companies, do you think their employees should be required to work for sub-minimum wage? Are you aware that there are non-profit insurance companies, and that they are usually more expensive than for-profit ones?

Finally, given your belief that conservatives are all for a patriarchal society where women are second-class citizens and men can do whatever they want, how do you feel about the left's obsession to remove every woman's ability to defend herself against a man, or group of men, who want to rape her?
I'm glad the subject of seatbelt use was mentioned... (show quote)


All good points. Spot on!!

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Mar 23, 2018 22:25:39   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
Voice of Reason wrote:
I'm glad the subject of seatbelt use was mentioned, because to me it is a good example of why freedom and socialism are mutually exclusive. In a free society, one would be free to choose whether or not to use a seatbelt. If injured in an accident, with or without a seatbelt, that person would use their own resources and insurance to pay for damages and medical bills.

In a socialistic society the general public is responsible for paying the cost of an accident, so the general public, or society, has not just a right, but an obligation to require the use of seatbelts in order to help reduce the costs associated with the accident.

Same with motorcycle helmets. And anti-drug laws. And soda bans. And...

Basically, when personal responsibility is replaced with socialism, society (government) is obligated to micro-manage everybody's life while everybody becomes poorer while paying for others' mistakes.

As for those mean old for-profit insurance companies, do you think their employees should be required to work for sub-minimum wage? Are you aware that there are non-profit insurance companies, and that they are usually more expensive than for-profit ones?

Finally, given your belief that conservatives are all for a patriarchal society where women are second-class citizens and men can do whatever they want, how do you feel about the left's obsession to remove every woman's ability to defend herself against a man, or group of men, who want to rape her?
I'm glad the subject of seatbelt use was mentioned... (show quote)

I agree with almost all of the points that you have made. I would question what we do with those people that don't use their seat belts and don't have insurance or the economic ability to pay for that failure on their part when they have the accident. There is the old Christian adage that 'you are your brother's keeper,' which probably is at the crux of many of these regulations.
As to (I assume) your reference to gun control in the last paragraph, I agree with allowing almost anyone to carry a gun at any time anywhere with the following exception ... within city limits or urban growth boundaries where there is more criminal activity, you could ban the carrying of guns unless you have a concealed carry and have had firearms training. If you get caught without those parameters on the street or any other public place, you get a mandatory five year prison sentence. Homeowners or renters could keep as many weapons for their own defense as they wish, and would be held responsible for their use. If you're a gun owner from outside the limits or are transporting to a range to shoot, you would be required to have gun separated from the magazine and the ammo in locked containers that were not readily available to you.
I think this is a reasonable compromise.

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Mar 23, 2018 22:56:59   #
Nickolai
 
whitnebrat wrote:
OK, enlighten me. Tell me what those conservative values really are. I'm open to listening.




Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy. Conservatism is incompatible with democracy, prosperity, and civilization in general. It is a destructive system of inequality and prejudice that is founded on deception and has no place in the modern world.
These ideas are not new. Indeed they were common sense until recently. Nowadays, though, most of the people who call themselves "conservatives" have little notion of what conservatism even is. They have been deceived by one of the great public relations campaigns of human history. Only by analyzing this deception will it become possible to revive democracy in the United States.

From the pharaohs of ancient Egypt to the self-regarding thugs of ancient Rome to the glorified warlords of medieval and absolutist Europe, in nearly every urbanized society throughout human history, there have been people who have tried to constitute themselves as an aristocracy. These people and their allies are the conservatives. The tactics of conservatism vary widely by place and time. But the most central feature of conservatism is deference: a psychologically internalized attitude on the part of the common people that the aristocracy are better people than they are. Modern-day liberals often theorize that conservatives use "social issues" as a way to mask economic objectives, but this is almost backward:

the true goal of conservatism is to establish an aristocracy, which is a social and psychological condition of inequality. Economic inequality and regressive taxation, while certainly welcomed by the aristocracy, are best understood as a means to their actual goal, which is simply to be aristocrats. More generally, it is crucial to conservatism that the people must literally love the order that dominates them. Of course this notion sounds bizarre to modern ears, but it is perfectly overt in the writings of leading conservative theorists such as Burke. Democracy, for them, is not about the mechanisms of voting and office-holding. In fact conservatives hold a wide variety of opinions about such secondary formal matters. For conservatives, rather, democracy is a psychological condition. People who believe that the aristocracy rightfully dominates society because of its intrinsic superiority are conservatives; democrats, by contrast, believe that they are of equal social worth. Conservatism is the antithesis of democracy. This has been true for thousands of years.

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Mar 23, 2018 23:06:06   #
Nickolai
 
Manning345 wrote:
This comparison was posted earlier as my view of the difference between Conservatism and the Left, but with a few additions. Not in any specific order:



Conservative.............................................The Left Today

Constructive..................................Destructive of the Current State
Truth Telling..................................Evasions and Lies
For Proper Discrimination................For Indiscrimination
For the People...............................For the State, Military, and Vassals
For US Sovereignty........................For Global Governance
Judicial Fidelity..............................Judicial Activism
For Jobs.......................................For Handouts, Dependency
For Smaller Government................For Large Government
For Right to Life............................For Abortion
For Affordable Healthcare...............For Obamacare
For Positive Action.........................For Talk-Talk
For Charity...................................For Welfare, Dependency on the State
Belief in God.................................Belief in State and Man
Freedom of Religion.......................The Same
For the Citizens.............................For So-Called Elites First and Foremost
Thinks of Past, Present and Future...Thinks of Today and Tomorrow
For the Constitution.......................For Elite Rule & "Living Constitution"
For Equal Opportunity....................For Equal Outcomes
For Well-Rounded Education............For Constrained Ideological Education
For Military Strength......................For Military Reductions
For Democracy and the Republic......For Collectivism=>Socialism=>Communi.
For Heeding Lessons of the Past.......For Utopian Ideals That Do Not Work
For Free Flow of Legislation.............For Obstruction of Legislation
For Fiscal Prudence........................Spendthrift, Reallocation of Funds
For Debt Reduction.........................For Deficit Spending
For Social Harmony........................For "Social Justice"
For Comity and Congeniality............For Ad Hominem Attacks
For Legal Immigration....................For Illegal Immigration and Amnesty
For Christian Marriage....................For Same Sex Marriage
For States Rights...........................For Powerful Central Government
For Order and Discipline.................For Chaos and Revolution Now
For Verbal Clarity..........................For Verbal Verbosity
For Immigration Control.................For Open Borders
For Long-Term Stability..................For Unwelcome Changes Now
For Rational Compromise................For Compromise Their Way Only
Natural Demeanor.........................Totally Smug and Nasty Grin
Reserved and Polite.......................Angry and Jarring


Thus:
For Sane and Balanced...................For Unbalanced

So how does one reconcile the two postures? It is not clear to me. I see no reason whatsoever to change the conservative stance.
This comparison was posted earlier as my view of t... (show quote)



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Mar 23, 2018 23:11:46   #
Nickolai
 
Manning345 wrote:
This comparison was posted earlier as my view of the difference between Conservatism and the Left, but with a few additions. Not in any specific order:



Conservative.............................................The Left Today

Constructive..................................Destructive of the Current State
Truth Telling..................................Evasions and Lies
For Proper Discrimination................For Indiscrimination
For the People...............................For the State, Military, and Vassals
For US Sovereignty........................For Global Governance
Judicial Fidelity..............................Judicial Activism
For Jobs.......................................For Handouts, Dependency
For Smaller Government................For Large Government
For Right to Life............................For Abortion
For Affordable Healthcare...............For Obamacare
For Positive Action.........................For Talk-Talk
For Charity...................................For Welfare, Dependency on the State
Belief in God.................................Belief in State and Man
Freedom of Religion.......................The Same
For the Citizens.............................For So-Called Elites First and Foremost
Thinks of Past, Present and Future...Thinks of Today and Tomorrow
For the Constitution.......................For Elite Rule & "Living Constitution"
For Equal Opportunity....................For Equal Outcomes
For Well-Rounded Education............For Constrained Ideological Education
For Military Strength......................For Military Reductions
For Democracy and the Republic......For Collectivism=>Socialism=>Communi.
For Heeding Lessons of the Past.......For Utopian Ideals That Do Not Work
For Free Flow of Legislation.............For Obstruction of Legislation
For Fiscal Prudence........................Spendthrift, Reallocation of Funds
For Debt Reduction.........................For Deficit Spending
For Social Harmony........................For "Social Justice"
For Comity and Congeniality............For Ad Hominem Attacks
For Legal Immigration....................For Illegal Immigration and Amnesty
For Christian Marriage....................For Same Sex Marriage
For States Rights...........................For Powerful Central Government
For Order and Discipline.................For Chaos and Revolution Now
For Verbal Clarity..........................For Verbal Verbosity
For Immigration Control.................For Open Borders
For Long-Term Stability..................For Unwelcome Changes Now
For Rational Compromise................For Compromise Their Way Only
Natural Demeanor.........................Totally Smug and Nasty Grin
Reserved and Polite.......................Angry and Jarring


Thus:
For Sane and Balanced...................For Unbalanced

So how does one reconcile the two postures? It is not clear to me. I see no reason whatsoever to change the conservative stance.
This comparison was posted earlier as my view of t... (show quote)



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Mar 23, 2018 23:13:41   #
Nickolai
 
Manning345 wrote:
LOL! You have to be kidding, or woefully ignorant!

Besides, those are my perceptions of Conservative tenets, not necessarily the same as Trump's or anyone else's. I follow Russell Kirk, et al.







Well Russel Kirk is WRONG !!!

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Mar 23, 2018 23:17:04   #
debeda
 
This is a pretty wacky list Nicky. I guess liberals just like to think they do everything and everything they do is good. So Dwight d. Eisenhower was a liberal????okee dokee then. Looney toon.

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Mar 23, 2018 23:20:15   #
Manning345 Loc: Richmond, Virginia
 
I do believe, as moldyoldy said of my comparison, "you have it exactly backwards in these charts!"

This is a grand illustration of the morass we are in, when each of the two ideologies identify the one with the sins of the other! In this, there is no compromise to be had, since the minds of the players have been altered irretrievably by conditioning and circumstance.

These charts will find good use in illustrating the enormous gap we face in the truth between the camps. So thank you for that!

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Mar 23, 2018 23:24:01   #
Nickolai
 
debeda wrote:
No, whineybrat, conservatives DON'T hate or fear change or want to "freeze time". There's also an old saying "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater ". Change just for the sake of change engenders chaos. Certain things are the way they are because of decades or even centuries of trial and error. I think one of the more oxymoronic of the new "laws" is gay marriage. Marriage is actually a religious institution where couples pledge to each other and any children of the union. But even farther back it was an institution whereby a man and a woman (and in polygamous societies women, if the man was deemed able to afford same) were married for the sole purpose of legitimizing any offspring of the union and providing for same. Gays don't have offspring. So a civil ceremony would be adequate whereby they gained the ability to be claimed as dependents for insurance and tax reasons and have an inheritance claim. Another oxymoronic law is the whole illegal alien question. Which I think is summed up perfectly in the meme "if someone moves into your house without permission does that make them part of the family?". Conservatives also believe in personal responsibility. If you make decisions and/or take actions YOU are responsible for the consequences. You don't get a special pass cuz you have a great excuse or are the minority du jour.
No, whineybrat, conservatives DON'T hate or fear c... (show quote)





What change has ever taken place with out a need for change ? I read a lot of history and it appeares to me that mst change occurs out of need for change the Progressive movement of the late 19th early 20th centuries did not come about just because-- it occured because of a vast need for reform

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