Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Much of my "research" was done between the mid 1980s thru the 1990s, so much of it, at this point, is by rote, which means it was somewhat effortless.

Thank you for your wisdom and for sometimes agreeing with me (through your own research).

bahmer

Very true and those feel good sermons will not lead you to Jesus nor will they ever tell you of your sin and the need to repent and accept the Lord for your salvation. Many false churches and religions and many will end up in hell and they will wonder why. They can be ever so sincere but if they are not told the truth and are lied to what choice do they have. Also I will leave the final choice up to the Lord. I am not a scholar regarding catholicism or protestantism either so I go by what I know and what I have been taught but I am by no means a judge.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Hi bahmer,

I hope you don't mind if I comment.

I too, can judge no person's soul or their standing before Almighty God, but I or anyone can read their professed doctrines, and compare them with God's recorded Will and His Word in the Bible.

False doctrine is false doctrine, and it can be so labeled.

Here in this previously blessed country, bahmer, any man/woman can still easily access a Bible, and read it for themselves... and then make an intelligent determination as to whether or not they choose to believe in what is written.

If any individual in this country, chooses to turn their hope of eternal salvation over to another human being, or a man-made institution, rather than going to the source of all knowledge, they have chosen their own destiny.

Unlike those in Saudi Arabia or other suppressed Muslim countries, where the Qur'an teaches all believers it is their duty to kill anyone who voluntarily leaves Islam, at this time, very few Americans are physically threatened because of their religious choice.

As you know, God has promised us that if any man lack wisdom, he may ask of the Lord, and it will be granted him.

"If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you." (James 1:5)

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

...so you agree that the council of Trent was heretical.

bahmer

That is what I did for myself but I can tell you for a fact and I was raised in the Lutheran Church that indoctrination starts at a young age. When I was a teenager and a member of the boy scouts we were at a summer camp. This was in Milwaukee Wisconsin and most all of my friends at the time were Roman Catholic. It was a Sunday morning and they were all going to Mass. I rode along and attended with them. When I got home my parents asked how summer camp was and I told them that I had a great time and that I even went to church with my Catholic friends. You would have thought that the world had come to an end. I told my dad who had studied to be a pastor that aside from the hail Mary's you couldn't tell the difference between the two services of Lutheran or Catholic. Man was he mad. Oh well I started at that point discovering things for myself and reading scriptures for myself. I am pretty sure I am on firm ground with the Lord. But since I am not a scholar in the word I find it difficult for myself to tell others how or what to do or believe regarding their spiritual life.

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

Bahmer…maybe this will help in how to tell others how or what to do or believe regarding their spiritual life.

Everything in life has good news and bad news associated with it. The entire landscape of biblical truth is generally found in a combination of both. Emphasizing one side to the exclusion of the other is not the whole truth. The same is true of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

First, the bad news…spiritually speaking…is that we are all sinners deserving of hell for our sin against a holy God. Romans 3:23 says, “…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…” The result is what Romans 6:23 says, “For the wages of sin is death…” meaning that our sin has kept us from God’s presence and eternal life. And as Romans 3:10 tells us, no one can earn his or her way into the presence of God because there is “no one righteous” and that our best human efforts to please God are as Isaiah 64:6 says, “as filthy rags.”

That’s the bad news…so what is the good news?

Here is a verse that you may be familiar with but now with additional context… John 3:16–18 says, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

So it can be said that God wants a relationship with His human creation and has communicated with us in a variety of ways:

• Nature: Romans 1:20 says, “For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”
• The Bible: 2 Timothy 3:16 says, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness…”
• Jesus coming in human form to live among us: John 1:14 says, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

So the good news is that God loves us and that Jesus Christ is God’s provision for the bad news of our sinful condition.

Romans 10:9-13 shows the “how.” “Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’”

So there is no way that until someone knows and understands the bad news that they can truly appreciate the good news. You wouldn’t appreciate a stranger bursting into your home and dragging you outside, unless you first understood that your house was on fire.

Likewise, if we can’t make someone understand that they are destined for hell because of their sin, they cannot truly appreciate all that Jesus did for them on the cross. If we can’t make someone realize how hopeless they are, they won’t recognize the great hope Jesus offers. Unless they recognize that they are sinners, they can’t appreciate a Savior. Until this happens we’re just “spinning our wheels.”

So how can we convey the good news by also talking about the bad news?

The best approach for presenting the Good News is to present what the apostle Paul called the “whole counsel of God” as described in Acts 20:27. God’s whole counsel includes both the bad news about our natural state and the good news about God’s plan to redeem us.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Hi DB,

Of course they were heretical (departure from established beliefs or standards).

They were not only heretical, they were also apostate (abandonment of one's religious faith, political party, one's principles).

Just as the Apostle Peter forewarned all Christian believers in the book of 2nd Peter, written ca 65 A.D.
(Peter was martyred in Rome by Nero, 68 A.D.).

2nd Peter 2:1-3:
"Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies that even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of the truth will be defamed.
In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with clever lies to gain possession of your money. God condemned them long ago, their longstanding verdict remains in force, and their destruction will not be delayed."

St. Paul warned Titus against false teachers who taught "things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake" (Titus 1:11)

When a council finally met at Trent, it was because Emperor Charles V, who ruled much of Europe, insisted on it. He thought that the best chance of winning the Protestants back to Catholicism was for the church to clean up its act. The pope did not agree. Seeing Protestant ideas as heresy he wanted only to define Catholic doctrine and condemn the heretics. The council had finally done a bit of both theology and reform.

A brief summation of the Council of Trent:

The Council of Trent, held between 1545 and 1563 in Trento, northern Italy, was an ecumenical council of the Roman Catholic Church. Motivated as a reaction against Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation, it has been described as the Counter-Reformation.

Martin Luther protested that the Roman church was corrupt because they taught Christians man-made doctrines that had no support in scripture, i.e., they could buy indulgences to get souls of loved ones out of purgatory. Against this, Luther argued that justification is by faith alone. As a result, whole nations left the Catholic church.

Because the Bible declares Salvation to be a free gift of God, it cannot be purchased with money.
(Ephesians 2:8)

On the subject of our salvation, the New Testament writers use different Greek words — words that emphasize the absolutely free quality of the gift. These are the two words most commonly used for the gift of salvation:

1) Dorea, meaning “a free gift.” This word lays particular stress on the gratuitous nature of the gift—it is something given above and beyond what is expected or deserved. Every New Testament occurrence of this word is related to a spiritual gift from God.
It is what Jesus offers to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:10).
It is called the “free gift” in Romans 5:15.
It is the “unspeakable [or indescribable] gift” in 2 Corinthians 9:15.
This gracious gift is identified as the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38; 8:30; and 11:17.

The adverb form of this word is dorean, translated “freely” in Matthew 10:8; 2 Corinthians 11:7; Revelation 21:6; 22:17.
In Romans 3:24, immediately following God’s pronouncement of our guilt, we have this use of dorean: “Being justified FREELY by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.”
The gift of salvation is free, and the motive for the gift is nothing more than the grace of the Giver.


The Council of Trent had three sessions, with a rather important interruption in the middle:

1545–1547: First session: apologies, minutes, and matters arising.
Basically, the Council said that everything the Church said and did was right, but they questioned whether bishops really ought to visit their bishoprics (a diocese) at least once.

1551–1552: Second session: still on agenda item 3. The Council sorted out the Church’s position on Communion, but it still couldn’t decide about those bishops and their bishoprics.

1555–1559: No Council: a four-year comfort break.
In 1555, Cardinal Carafa (in charge of the Inquisition) became Pope Paul IV. Paul IV thought there had been too much hot air spouted at Trent, and had a big drive on discipline instead, placing a large number of titles on the Church’s Index of Banned Books.

Paul IV died in 1559, and the reformers breathed a sigh of relief.

1562–1563: Third session: This third session summed everything up in the definitive Tridentine (meaning “from Trent”) Decrees:

The Tridentine Decrees were intended to make Catholicism a much more intense personal experience, instead of just a set of mechanical rituals.
The Church started running off a printed Catechism, explaining what Catholics believe in an FAQ style; this text is still in use today.
Catholics were to go to Confession more often and really make a clean breast of things.
To help people confess, Carlo Borromeo, the charismatic Archbishop of Milan, designed the confessional box, with a screen so you weren’t able to see the priest’s face clearly and he wasn’t able to see the penitant’s.

The Council of Trent on January 13, 1547 approved a decree on justification (the way God excuses our improprieties against Him after we have sinned) after months of difficult debate.

Reading God's Holy Scriptures would have been much quicker, as well as more accurate.

The doctrine of Justification was issued as sixteen chapters of their own invention, followed by thirty-three binding statements, or canons, all aimed against Protestant ideas.

The council decided that grace is necessary at each step of justification, however, man's free will must cooperate.
The council declared Justification is more than forgiveness of sins: it is God's ongoing "process" of making a person new and good.
The council denied that Faith is the only condition of salvation, but was instead only its beginning/foundation/root.
The council decreed that before the grace of justification could grow, obedience to God's commands is required.
The council also decided that justification can be lost by certain sins, and no man can ever be sure that he will be finally saved.

Holy Scripture refutes everyone of these positions as heretical.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

Zemirah,

You provided a semi-skewed biased, inaccurate overview of the religious and historical events from the the Council of Trent documents.


1. There are 289 pages issued from the the Council of Trent documents. There were 25 sessions, and not 3 sessions among other errors.

2. Please get your Council of Trent facts accurately and correctly.

3. Read the Council of Trent documents, and be enlightened, with original source documents on the religious historical factual knowledge.

4. There is no ambiguity on how the Catholic Church responds to the Protestant Reformation and how the Catholic Church response's has being described as the Counter-Reformation. The reforming the Catholic Church, e.g. ending of buy indulgences etc. . And argued against and decree's of Luther's 99 thesis and heretical Reformation theology.

The Catholic Church reaffirmed: e.g. The teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostles, New and Old Testament Bible, Sacred Church Traditions, teaching of early church Fathers, and writings of many Church leaders and writers of Catholicism Theological Doctors of the Catholic Church defined in the 289 pages from the Council of Trent.

The Decree (Chapters) on Justification, The original source on the Council of Trent documents. you will read later below # 5.


1. The Council of Trent. The Bull of Indiction:
The Bull Of Indiction Of The Sacred Ecumenical And General Council Of Trent Under the Sovereign Pontiff, Paul III
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ctbull.html

2. The Council of Trent. Overview, Table of Content:
The canons and decrees of the sacred and oecumenical Council of Trent,
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent.html

3. The Council of Trent:
The canons and decrees of the sacred and oecumenical Council of Trent,
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

4. Notes and J. Waterworth's Preface:
The Council of Trent The canons and decrees of the sacred and oecumenical Council of Trent, Ed. and translation by Rev. J. Waterworth.
https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trpref.html

5. Doctrinal Summary: (of every Chapter and Canon on Justification)

a. Council of Trent: List & Summary of the Canons on Justification
Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2015/11/council-of-trent-canons-on-justification.html#mBHkXHd2umAcjeD8.99

Doctrinal Summary [of the Council of Trent in 1588]
(of every Chapter and Canon on Justification)

It is certainly easier to comprehend the Doctrinal Summary's 20 points from the Council of Trent than get lost in the myriad of prepositional phrases in the original text.

11/16/2015 Council of Trent: List & Summary of the Canons on Justification

David Armstrong
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2015/11/council-of-trent-canons-on-justification.html

. . . (with a handy summary of Tridentine soteriology)

1. Man cannot justify himself (which includes works): contra Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism: Decree on Justification: chapter 5; Canons 1, 2, 3 on Justification.

2. Justification is by Grace Alone: Decree on Justification: chapter 8; Canon 10.

3. Initial justification by Grace Alone may be increased through mortification, observing God’s commandments, and works (see James 2:24): Decree on Justification: chapters 7,10, 11.

4. Justification by Faith Alone is false: Decree on Justification: chapter 11; Canons 9, 29.

5. Good works and merit proceed wholly from the grace of God through the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf (not from ourselves). They are necessary but they do not earn salvation, which
is by grace alone: Decree on Justification: chapter 16; Canons 18, 19, 20, 24, 26, 32, 33.

6. Man must cooperate with God’s grace in order to receive an increase in justification: Canons 4, 22.

7. Good works done in God’s grace really are good, and not evil because of our fallen nature, and they deserve a reward (not salvation, but recompense): Canons 6, 7, 25, 31.

8. Extrinsic, imputed, merely external or declared justification is false: Canon 11.

9. “Faith in one’s own faith” or “assurance of salvation” is false: Decree on Justification: Chapters 9, 12; Canons 12, 13, 14, 15.

10. Men can fall away from grace (but not faith) and justification, through mortal sin, and must persevere: Decree on Justification: Chapters
11, 13, 15; Canons 16, 17, 23, 27, 28.

11. Temporal punishment for sin in this world and the next (purgatory) is necessary for most people: Canon 30.

12. Men are fallen (original sin) and are by nature children of wrath, and cannot be saved by the law: Decree on Justification: Chapter 1.

13. Man has a free will: adversely affected and limited by the fall, but not extinguished: Decree on Justification: Chapter 1.

14. Jesus Christ is the propitiator, through His blood, for the sins of the whole human race (universal atonement): Decree on Justification: Chapter 2.

15. Being born again and regenerated is necessary for grace, justification, redemption, and reception of the benefits of Christ’s death (justification through Christ): Decree on Justification: Chapters 3, 4.

16. Adults can and must be disposed by God’s grace to accept God’s graces for justification, repent, do penance, and be baptized: Decree on Justification: Chapters 6, 7.

17. Justification and sanctification are joined together, caused by Jesus Christ’s Passion on the Cross and God’s grace, and accepted freely by man. Faith, hope, and charity are also infused
in this justification: Decree on Justification: Chapter 7.

18. Those who fall away from following the Lord and from grace can be restored through the sacrament of penance: Decree on Justification: Chapter 14.

19. The fear of hell is not a sin: Canon 8.

20. One must obey Jesus Christ as well as trust Him: Canon 21.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Uh, Doc,

There is absolutely nothing I could write, boldly proclaim, softly whisper, herald from the mountain tops or otherwise communicate that you would find less than "semi-skewed."

In the spiritual realm of Almighty God, the entire Council of Trent was and is "phony balogna."

He neither ordered it or condoned it.

Consequently, my report gave it the due consideration it deserved.

Short of listing the 100 curses dutifully reaffirmed by both Vatican I and Vatican II that are still official canon/ doctrine/policy of Rome, aimed against all who oppose their cursed rules and regulations, including the Orthodox and all protestants and independent Christians, there is nothing left to discuss.

Catholic doctrine has no redeeming qualities, no spiritual good news of salvation and no message from the God of Creation.

Anyone who is willing to turn themself blue in the face attempting to split such liturgical hairs regarding an unBiblical council that was called by wayward men in a wayward back-slidden institution with the sole motivation of preventing the teaching of the true gospel of Jesus Christ being taught to all people can carry on their evil work without any assistance from me.

Go to the gospel.

Proclaim that.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

Zemirah. Are you totally both Stupid and Ignorant . . . You can personally insult me all you want, but when you personally attack my Catholic religion and beliefs, you've got an argument on your hands.

All you do is placate, Full bold face Religious lie's and opinions, That is no way, to go through life.

You provided a Protestant Evangelical-Independent view-point, that I do say is, "Heretical semi-skewed, biased, inaccurate overview of the religious and historical events from the the Council of Trent documents."

You can Argue all you want, and till your Blue in the face. You can't change the historical record all you want. But I see your trying too.

You can not change "Catholic Religion and 1985 years of Catholic History."


Your church and you, are a mere fledgling child, a blink in the eye of religious viewpoints and a watered down, "Shopping-Cart" Christian denomination.

Picking and choosing what theology suites your Christian needs to validate your-self.

You say that your only expressing your "Anti-Catholic" religious doctrine.

1. That is a false Fallacy argument Statement.

2.Your only expressing Religious Bigotry under false pretenses.

3. That is what we call Religious "BULL-SH-T," opinions and statements.

4. So stop with the "Holier Than Thou" winning and crying compost crap.

5. All you do here on the OPP forum is sow the seeds of "Religious anti-Catholic Malcontent."

6. You do not speak for "God the Almighty, The Father, Son and Holy Spirt."

The most Interesting observation are your blatant Anti-Catholic responses. Your only expressing your religious bigotry and hatred belief.
Sadly how un-Christian like . . .

PadreMike said it best.

"What a wonderful thing it is for brethren to dwell together in disunity. Guess what - every Protestant is a heretic and a schismatic.

Islam is a false religion but it is an older more ancient faith than Protestantism which is only 500 years old this year.

You have no claim to Christian history or Tradition because you have to reject them in order to be a protestant.

You can dish out hate but you reject truth."

You were given the Council Of Trent, Original Source Material and (6) URL Links.

The Catholic Church reaffirmed: e.g. There is no ambiguity on how the Catholic Church responds to the Protestant Reformation and how the Catholic Church response's has being described as the Counter-Reformation.

The reforming the Catholic Church, e.g. ending of buy indulgences etc. . And argued against and decree's of Luther's 99 thesis's and heretical Reformation theology.

1. The teachings of Jesus Christ,
2. The Apostles,
3. New and Old Testament Bible,
4. Sacred Church Traditions,
5. Teaching of early church Fathers, and
6. Writings of many Church leaders and writers of Catholicism,
7. Theological Doctors of the Catholic Church
8. Defined in the 289 pages from the Council of Trent.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

Zemirah, Are you totally both, Religiously "Stupid and Ignorant" . . .

You can personally insult me all you want, but when you personally attack my Catholic religion and beliefs, you've got an argument on your hands.

All you have done is placate, full bold face Religious lie's and opinions. That is no way, to go through life.

You provided a Protestant Evangelical-Independent view-point, counter to what Catholics profess, that I do say is. "Heretical semi-skewed, biased, inaccurate overview of the religious and historical events from the the Council of Trent documents."

You can Argue all you want, and till your Blue in the face.

But you can't change the historical record. But I see your trying too.

You cannot change "Catholic Religion and 1985 years of Catholic History," It's public knowledge.


Your church and you, are a mere fledgling child, a blink in the eye, of religious viewpoints and a watered down, "Shopping-Cart" Christian denomination.

Picking and choosing what theology suites your Christian needs to validate your-self.


You say that your only expressing your "Anti-Catholic" religious doctrine. I say --

1. That is a false Fallacy argument Statement.

2. Your only expressing Religious Bigotry under false pretenses.

3. That is what we call, Religious "BULL-SH-T," opinions and statements.

4. So stop, with the "Holier Than Thou" winning and crying compost crap. “We few, we holy few. We are the remnant, the true church, the only real Christians.” Your noting but Christian schism "Donatism" heretics. It leads to unbearable self-righteousness.

5. All you do here on the OPP forum is sow the seeds of "Religious anti-Catholic Malcontent."

6. You do not speak for "God the Almighty, The Father, Son and Holy Spirt," or for all Christians. Your just crying out over the vast empty waters of religious delusional beliefs.

The most Interesting observation are your blatant Anti-Catholic responses. Your only expressing your religious bigotry and hatred belief.
Sadly how un-Christian like . . .


PadreMike said it best.

"What a wonderful thing it is for brethren to dwell together in disunity.

Guess what - every Protestant is a heretic and a schismatic.

Islam is a false religion but it is an older more ancient faith than Protestantism which is only 500 years old this year.

You have no claim to Christian history or Tradition because you have to reject them in order to be a protestant.

You can dish out hate but you reject truth."


Zemirah, You were given the Council Of Trent, Original Source Material and (6) URL Links.

The Catholic Church reaffirmed It's self doctrinal teaching and Jesus Christ's truth's: e.g. There is no ambiguity on how the Catholic Church responds to the Protestant Reformation and how the Catholic Church response's has being only described as the Counter-Reformation to Martin Luther, John Calvin, Huldrych Zwingli, Henry VIII and others.

Protestant's argued for a religious and political redistribution of power into the hands of Bible, and pamphlet-reading pastors and princes. The disruption triggered wars, persecutions and the so-called Counter-Reformation, the Catholic Church’s delayed but forceful response to the Protestants.

The Council of Trent, which met off and on for 18 years from 1545 through 1563, and articulated the Church’s answer to the problems that triggered the Reformation and to the reformers themselves and the reforming the Catholic Church, e.g. ending of buy indulgences etc. . . And argued against and decree's of Luther's 99 thesis's and heretical Reformation theology.

The Catholic Church of the Counter-Reformation era grew more spiritual, more literate and more educated. New religious orders, notably the Jesuits, and the Dominicans combined rigorous spirituality with a globally minded intellectualism, while mystics such as Teresa of Avila injected new passion into the older orders.

The Council Of Trent was a reaffirming, a renewal of: Catholic beliefs and Christian Theology.
1. The words and teachings of Jesus Christ,
2. The Apostles,
3. New and Old Testament Bible,
4. Sacred Church Traditions,
5. Teaching of early church Fathers, and
6. Writings of many Church leaders and writers of Catholicism,
7. Theological Doctors of the Catholic Church

All of Christendom understood what the Council Of Trent decreed. And defined in the 289 pages Papal Bull from the Council of Trent.

For example: In contrast the Catholic church teaches that justification is a process that includes works (with those works “infusing” one’s faith), and that those works are the cause of the justification process. Beyond that, the Catholic Church teaches:

“If anyone says, that by faith alone the impious is justified; let him be anathema” (Council of Trent #9)
Or:“If anyone says that the justice [or justification] received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema” (Council of Trent, 24).

Just what is an "Anathema” ?
An Anathema, word origin and history "an accursed thing," from Latin "an excommunicated person; the curse of excommunication," from Greek anathema "a thing accursed," "thing devoted to evil." "The Lord hath come," which follows anathema in I Cor. 16:22. Hebrew mohoram-atta "you are put under the ban."

There are three particular heresies that were prevalent in Saint Augustine day, and which plague us still and predominately "Donatism".

a. A heresy is never totally wrong.
b. It's just that it is never totally right.
c. A heresy is a half truth or a truth twisted.
d. The reason a heresy is attractive is that it always seems to make perfect sense.
e. A heresy is a religious truth you would make up if you were making up a religion.

However, Catholic truth is stranger and subtler than that, and it takes sound teaching to expose and battle the heresy.

f. Heresies are persistent because they are attractive, and they are persistent because they usually console the heretic in some way.

In other words, it is easier to believe the heresy than the fullness of the Catholic truth. The fullness of the Catholic truth is either difficult to believe or difficult to obey or both.

g. The heresy always offers an easy way out–either an easier way of believing or an easier way of behaving.


1. The first heresy Augustine battled was Donatism.

The Donatists were a schism in the North African Church that were sort of like Puritanical Protestant or Jansenists.

They thought the church should be pure, and should be a church of saints, not sinners.

They were unwilling to accept back those Christians who, out of weakness, compromised their faith during the persecutions and they insisted that for sacraments to be valid the priest had to be faultless.

While this sort of rigorism is understandable, it doesn’t take much to see where it leads.

It leads to unbearable self righteousness.

“We few, we holy few.

We are the remnant, the true church, the only real Christians.” . . .

Nonsense.

If you think the core error of Donatism does not exist today, look a little harder.

Although the name “Donatism” is now a footnote of church history there are plenty of rigorist schisms and sects and plenty of the attitude within individuals and groups in many different churches.

The fact is, most heresies, while seeming attractive, can be countered very easily with a passage from the gospel.

Donatists should read the parable of the wheat and tares.

The sinners and the saints grow together and God will sort it out.


I end my rebuttal with PadreMikes eloquent rebuttal statements on your heretical and Christian schismatic theology.

You quoted from Jude using the Orthodox Study Bible (NKJ) the foot note for your quote from 1 John says: "For John, apostolic teaching and writing (v24-26) is identical with being taught of God (v 27) without both the work of the Spirit and apostolic doctrine, we would remain in darkness."

You deny apostolic doctrine and tradition and believe the Holy Spirit will lead you into correct interpretation of scripture individually, apart from the teachings and tradition of the apostles.

Therefore, according to you, the Holy Spirit can teach different doctrine and interpretation from one person to another and this is precisely that which leads to heresy and schism and 25,000 different denominations, sects, etc!

The Holy Spirit cannot do this because the Holy Spirit cannot teach of His own but only that which came one time straight from Christ passed on to and thru the apostles to last for all time.

We do not have the authority to privately interpret scripture but we can be inspired in many different ways. Interpretation and inspiration are different. To claim the Holy Spirit can correctly interpret Holy Scripture for you individually and someone else differently is a grievous error.

We often read on this forum, and thousands of other sites/articles where Protestants attack the Roman Church.

How often do you read of someone of the Catholic faith (Orthodox and Romans) initiating attacks against Protestants?


When we defend that faith (once delivered) you go ballistic.


We believe in unity and that Christ's Church must be one, whereas you divide it into thousands of separatists.

Within 80 years of the Reformation there were over 200 different denominations, sects, etc. These are the fruits of your unity.

Maybe you are those in grievous error? How often I have heard, "I choose a church that fills my needs?" How selfish and self-centered that is.

We choose a church where we may worship our Lord in the way He chooses to be worshipped - One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

Yours in Christ. PAX

Doc110

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Disagreeing with Roman Catholic doctrines and dogma as unBiblical is NOT an attack on you personally.

You are NOT Roman Catholicism!

You are projecting hatred where, on my part, none exists.

FYI: I do not now, nor have I ever "hated" anyone on this forum, nor will I ever. That does not even compute.

Debating differing opinions on political, psychological, spiritual or cultural differences is an intellectual pursuit for those who are blessed with the time to so engage.

Attacking me personally over and over and over, as you simultaneously and falsely accuse me of attacking you, - on my thread, is singularly peculiar.

Every professor of belief in Jesus Christ traces their faith to the same source, the same supernatural blessed occurrence in the early first century.

My faith is not one day younger than is your faith.

Every Protestant, every independent believer, every Christian sect, every denomination had their origin on that same hill of calvary.

No one has been granted an exclusive trademark to faith in the risen Jesus Christ, to the omission of others.

For anyone to claim exclusivity is blind arrogance and self-pride.

That is easily identifiable within the proclamations of Roman Catholicism.

That does not attach those qualities to you.

That is your choice.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

Zemirah,

You still don't "Get" the really "Big Picture." Your a wing-nut case if you can say these things and believe it.

Sola scripture defense. once again.

Your type of religious faith is UnBiblical and Un-Scripitual, get it . . .

Your position adopts the extreme solo Scriptura rule of faith, which is quite different from, and a distortion of, the not intrinsically a-historical or anti-institutional or anti-traditional or anti-creedal classic Protestant position of sola Scriptura, rightly understood.

So show the OPP Readers your church and your personal belief of a (Religious Historical) references to the first century.

You can only apply it to theory, but can-not actual provide proof to support your contention. That means Historical evidence . . .

Zemirah. Produce the historical record, other than touted Sola Scriptura. You can't, your argument is a pipe dream . . . So then your a charlatan, a fraud and a religious heretic. . .

Catholicism scriptural doctrine, Dogma, Theology and Cannon is fully backed by the scriptural, traditional and historical Bible.

Your church and you live on a false dogma belief . . .

So for you too calling the "Kettle-Black" is a oxymoronic statement

Your noting but Christian schism "Donatism" heretic with a tad bit of unbearable self-righteousness ...

Armageddun Loc: The show me state

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doc,

Should I say Doc, you are right in many aspects of your unnecessary tirade against my friend Zemirah. Many of the facts you present were indeed on paper. However, the actions of the 15th-century leaders of the Catholic church in no way are in tune with what was written as doctrinal beliefs.

Church history depends greatly on who the author of such history might be. The Catholic church of the time frame you are discussing is vile and disgusting. Pitting one kingdom against the other by "religious" threats of excommunication, the selling of indulgences, burning people at the stake who were guilty of reading the scriptures, chaining the Bible to the pulpits, on and on the unscriptural actions and behaviors went on. Show the chapter and verse where it says the Pope is infallable, how did fish suddenly become beef or turkey on fridays? How does the pardon of sin based on money square off with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? How can the dead be changed after they are dead according to how many sermons are preached or prayers being offered?
how does that square off with it is appointed once for man to die, after that the judgment? How many time have you read the Confraternity Version of your Catholic Bible? It has the same words that the KJV. with the exception of a few added books. Or do you give any credence to the Scriptures?

How easy it has been for a priest to take advantage of those who trust them by confessing their sins. Many a young trusting boy/girl have been abused by a priest who knows their weaknesses through so-called "sacred confession."

The leaders of the Catholic church down through centuries who are guilty of ill-gotten gain and abusive power will have much to answer for on Judgement day. The scriptures are not submissive to the church, the church should be submissive to the Scripture.

The history of the Catholic church is not like American history that liberals are trying to revise. God protects His truth. You, sir, need a good dose of Gal. 5:22-23. Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them. The Catholic church has had centuries of bad crops.

I know I will have to stand before God at the Bema Seat, I won't be at the Great White Throne, I do believe there will be many tyrannical Catholic leaders there. There is still time to receive the truth from the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I beg you to open your heart to the truth. God is not willing that any should perish.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Thank you for your calming presence, Armageddun.

You glorify the God of our salvation.