mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

Padre…I don’t use the KJV. I usually use the NASB, ESV, or Halleluyah Scriptures.

And my “pope” is the Ruah ha Qodesh (Holy Spirit)…

1 John 2:27
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

You quoted from Jude using the Orthodox Study Bible (NKJ) the foot note for your quote from 1 John says: "For John, apostolic teaching and writing (v24-26) is identical with being taught of God (v 27) without both the work of the Spirit and apostolic doctrine, we would remain in darkness." You deny apostolic doctrine and tradition and believe the Holy Spirit will lead you into correct interpretation of scripture individually, apart from the teachings and tradition of the apostles. Therefore, according to you, the Holy Spirit can teach different doctrine and interpretation from one person to another and this is precisely that which leads to heresy and schism and 25,000 different denominations, sects, etc! The Holy Spirit cannot do this because the Holy Spirit cannot teach of His own but only that which came one time straight from Christ passed on to and thru the apostles to last for all time. We do not have the authority to privately interpret scripture but we can be inspired in many different ways. Interpretation and inspiration are different. To claim the Holy Spirit can correctly interpret Holy Scripture for you individually and someone else differently is a grievous error.

We often read on this forum, and thousands of other sites/articles where Protestants attack the Roman Church. How often do you read of someone of the Catholic faith (Orthodox and Romans) initiating attacks against Protestants?When we defend that faith (once delivered) you go ballistic. We believe in unity and that Christ's Church must be one, whereas you divide it into thousands of separatists. Within 80 years of the Reformation there were over 200 different denominations, sects, etc. These are the fruits of your unity. Maybe you are those in grievous error? How often I have heard, "I choose a church that fills my needs?" How selfish and self-centered that is. We choose a church where we may worship our Lord in the way He chooses to be worshipped - One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

No Padre, I quoted 1 John 2:27 (NLT). In this case I used it because it specifically uses the term Holy Spirit for "Him." If one reads the context, one understands that it refers to the Holy Spirit regardless of version.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

I believe you should reread my last post. I acknowledged your quote from Jude as found in the orthodox study bible then referred to the footnote in the same orthodox study bible to your quote from 1John. One cannot use different versions of scripture to comply with their private interpretation. The Truth remains that Holy Scripture cannot be used for private interpretation claiming the Holy Spirit provides different interpretation for different people. There is only one correct interpretation, that given by Christ to the apostles to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church - His church. That church put the words to the sacred text and is the only authority (church) to correctly interpret it. God is not a God of confusion but a God of perfect order. The Word of God interpreted differently by thousands of denominations creates chaos, disunity and disorder. Chaos, disunity and disorder is Christianity today! Therefore...the confusing, contradictory, contrary peace of Christ? Not a good definition I'm sure you will agree. We can all be wrong but we cannot all be right. If you have chips in this game do you bet on the ancient or modern? Do you accept the teachings of a church 500 years old or 2000 years old? Finally, who does this squabbling and infighting amongst Christians serve? You know the answer. Make no mistake, as an Orthodox Christian we have some concerns with modern Roman doctrine but their sacraments and clergy are recognized as valid and they reciprocate our own. There is nothing more I can say except I know that God's grace flows where He says it will flow and Rome does not deny that Grace flows to protestants you should acknowledge the same to the Roman Church instead of the constant hate taught attacks.

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

Padre…I’ve grown tired of discussing this subject with you and Doc110 as it gets none of us anywhere. You go ahead and believe what you believe and I’ll go ahead and believe what I believe. But I might add that I was indoctrinated into Catholicism and am now a bible-believing disciple of Jesus Christ. Notice that nowhere in that description is the word Protestant or a denomination. I’ll repeat my statement of faith one more time and you can do as you wish. God bless Padre. I agree that grace…AND mercy…flows both ways.

STATEMENT OF FAITH:
1. I believe that there is one living and true GOD, eternally existing in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, equal in power and glory; that this triune God created all, upholds all, and governs all things. (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 6:4; Matthew 28:19; John 10:30; Hebrews 9:14)

2. I believe that the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the Word of God, fully inspired without error in the original manuscripts, and the infallible rule of faith and practice. The Word of God is the foundation upon which I operate and is the basis for which I am governed. I believe that the Word of God supersedes any earthly law that is contrary to the Holy Scriptures. (Isaiah 28:13; Nehemiah 8:8; John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; Hebrews 4:12; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 2 Peter 1:21)

3. I believe in the person of God the Father, an Infinite, personal Spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, power and love; that He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of men; that He hears and answers prayer; and that He saves from sin and death all those who come to Him through Jesus Christ. (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalms 90:2; Psalms 102:27; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Titus 1:3)

4. I believe in the person of Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, conceived by the Holy Spirit. I believe in His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles and teachings, his substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, perpetual intercession for His people and personal, visible return to earth. (Isaiah 7:14; Micah 5:2; Matthew 1:23; Mark 16:19; Luke 1:34-35; John 1:1-2; John 8:58; John 11:25; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 1:2; Revelation 1:8)

5. I believe in the person of the Holy Spirit, Who came forth from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify and empower for ministry all who believe in Christ; (Acts 1:8; 2 Corinthians 3:18; John 16:8-11; Romans 15:13,16; Hebrews 9:14)

6. I believe the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and that He is an abiding helper, teacher, and guide. (John 14:16-17, 16:8-11)

7. I believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit and in the exercise of all Biblical gifts of the Spirit. (1 Corinthians 14)

8. I believe that all people are sinners by nature and, therefore, are under condemnation; that God regenerates based upon faith by the Holy Spirit, those who repent of their sins and confess Jesus Christ as Lord. (Acts 8:15-17; Titus 3:5)

9. I believe in the universal church, the living spiritual body, of which Christ is the head and all who are born again are members. (1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Ephesians 4:15-16)

10. I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ committed two ordinances to the church: (a) full immersion water baptism, and (b) the Lord's Supper. (Matthew 28:19; Acts 2:38; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26)

11. I believe also in the laying on of hands for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the receiving of the perpetuity of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 6:6, 8:17; 1 Timothy 4:14)

13. I believe in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ which is His personal, visible return to earth and the establishment of His millennial kingdom, in the resurrection of the body, the final judgment and eternal blessing of the righteous and endless suffering of the wicked. (Matthew 16:27; Acts 1:11; Revelation 19:11-16, 20: 11-15)

14. I believe in a literal Heaven and a literal Hell and that all those who place their faith, hope and trust in Jesus Christ will spend eternity in Heaven with the Lord, while those who reject Jesus’ free gift of salvation will spend eternity separated from the Lord in Hell. (Matthew 5:3, 25:31-34; Hebrews 12:23; 1 Peter 1:4; Psalm 9:17; Matthew 5:22, 18:9; Luke 12:5)

16. I believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church where all believers will meet the Lord in the air and be taken out of this world prior to the Tribulation that will come upon the earth. (Matthew 24:29-31; Luke 21:36; Romans 1:18, 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; 2 Peter 2:7-9; Revelation 5:7-10, 7:13-14)

bahmer

Amen and Amen I agree with you 100%.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Only in math does two negatives make a positive.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

I quoted from Jude, Padre,

For the twenty third time, I am not attacking men or women of whatever denomination they may claim.

I am attacking false doctrines, invented or misinterpreted by men or women for their own gain, teachings that do not line up with Holy Scripture, but contradict it.

The Roman Catholic Institution is a mini-country with a mini-government. It is of men, not of God.

Jesus attacked only the false teachers, false leaders who misrepresented God and His Holy Word (which we are commanded to defend).

The Canon of Scripture was completed in 96 A.D. when the Apostle John completed recording Jesus' words of the book of Revelation which he had received from Him. Galatians, written ca 48-49 A.D. by Paul, is widely considered the earliest book of the New Testament. Also, Thessalonians 1, written by Paul around 50 A.D. is considered to be one of the earliest books of the New Testament (some scholars consider it the earliest).

The Christian believers, just as Jesus promised, knew His voice, and they knew which Scriptures were of God

They did not need worldly or powerful men to so inform them.

I often quote from the Septuagint and/or the Orthodox Study Bible because the Old Testament passages which Jesus and the Apostles quoted in the New Testament were, for the most part, from the Septuagint, rather than the Hebrew Bible.

For almost the first four hundred years of Christianity, (until Jerome completed the Latin Vulgate (405 A.D.), translated from the Hebrew) the Christian Church used the Greek Septuagint, rather than the Hebrew Scriptures as their Old Testament, and then as the basis of their Old Latin translation.

I ignore the footnotes other than geographic info, because they are not inspired Scripture, but the opinion of men, and in the case you cite, misinformed and/or misguiding men.

There is no authentic "Pope" within the Protestant or Independent church ranks, as there is no sanctioned "Pope" within Roman Catholicism or the Orthodox Church.

The Apostles were unique, as were the Old Testament Prophets. They had no successors.

When the last living Apostle, John died, they were gone.

There have been no Apostles since that time. They completed their task of writing the New Testament, the words of Jesus given them by the Holy Spirit. Once complete, there was nothing further for them to do.

Only Jesus Christ is the Head of His Church.

Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord God; this is My name. I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to carved images."

Isaiah 48:11 "For My own sake, I will do this for you, because My name is profaned; and I will not give My glory to another."

Christianity grew as God drew them to the gospel of Jesus Christ, through His spoken Word from eye witnesses, and His written Word, the prophecies in the Tanakh, the Epistles (completed in the late 40's to early 60's), as the Holy Spirit convicted them of their sin and need for repentance.

There is no grand overarching hierarchy in the Body of Christ, nor is one required. It is a spiritual unity.

There are evangelists (evangel is a Greek word meaning "good news"). They are proclaimers of good news.

There are elders/bishops, pastors and deacons in the local churches.

There is no universal head of the church except Jesus Christ, ever.

There were "traditions" only until the New Testament was complete (96 A.D.), at which point those "traditions" had become written Scripture.

Matthew 20: 25-28: "But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

There was no distinctive dress that set them apart as special. They neither coveted worldly possessions or dictatorial power over others.

If Roman Catholicism had stuck with the unadulterated Word of God, they would have had no need to slaughter thousands of humble believing Christians who refused to join with their apostasy and/or heretical perversions of the Gospel of Christ, or to succumb to their worldly greed and thirst for power.

Wolves in sheep's clothing are no less wolves.

Acts 20:29-35: For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Ephesians 4:15-16: "but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ - from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love."

Acts 20:32-35 “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. I have coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel. Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’"

If Rome had in any way changed, other than window dressing, they would have cancelled their multitudinous Anathemas against all Christians who refuse to join with them in their non-biblical doctrines; instead, both Vatican I and Vatican II have reaffirmed them.

Nothing anyone says "drives me insane." You greatly over exaggerate your own importance. Only the opinion of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is important.

2nd John 1:3: "Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love."

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

Zemirah...All things mentioned in your post are wise and true and you said them so much better than I ever could. Not wanting to puff you up, I'll just say thanks.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Good grief! To actually believe that the apostles did not appoint successors says that the Church Christ established failed. But it is quite pointless, I agree, to continue this discussion. You have no history! Your Faith is 500 years old with a smattering of selective facts that only supports your heretical doctrines. We will continue with this "discussion" each and every time you feel you have a heretical Christian duty to continue your attack on the Church, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

The Catholic church documents every birth. Thanks to the Catholic Church people are tracing their roots back hundreds of years.

It is equally difficult to believe that it wasn't documented.

If history is any mark of a religion we should all be Buddhists, worshipers of Ra, and Zeus.

bahmer

Amen and Amen beautiful thank you very much.

bahmer

The Mormon Church documents every birth as well. And thanks to the Mormon Church people are tracing their roots back hundreds of years as well. But we know that the Mormon Church is made up by man and if that is the only criteria it would be equally good would it not.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Anglicans, Romans, Orthodox, Methodists, Lutherans, and others maintain birth, baptism, marriage and death records of their parishioners. It is a requirement in the event the original certificates are lost. No big deal but a necessary action to prove, for example, a valid baptism so that a second and invalid baptism not be administered. ("I believe in one baptism for the remission of sins" - Nicene Creed, 325 AD from the first ecumenical council at Nicea. This Creed formulated by the entire Church outlined the minimum requirement for Christians without deviation.) On the other hand, the ordination of Orthodox and Roman clergy are maintained to prove continuity back to an original apostle in valid apostolic succession. No Protestant clergy maintain this unbroken continuity with original Christianity.) Mormons are concerned with genology because they believe they can baptize their dead by proxy which, of course, is ludicrous. Furthermore if history is THE mark of religion we should all be pagans. In fact the ancient Romans considered Christians to be atheist because they denied the divinity of all the pantheistic God's of the Romans. Possessing only 500 years of the Protestant Church history, disregarding the previous 1500 years for the most part, is necessary to be a devout Protestant.

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

...we're back to the same historicity argument...why is a timeline the weight of you're argument?

How long were incoming emperors worshiped in the Roman Empire? How long were Egyptian emperors worshiped? A timeline is not a defensible position.

October 31 marks the day when Martin Luther posted his 99 thesis. Maybe you ought to go read those. To me that spells the end of your timeline and changes the position of your Church.

Protestants deny the power of the pope. He's a human being, nothing more. There is no apostolic succession.