straightUp Loc: California

I want to take a moment to issue my opinion about the role the Antifa takes in what appears to be a rise in violent confrontations between Americans. I don't personally know anyone who is associated with Antifa and to be honest, I don't know much about the organization, other than the fact that they consider themselves anti-fascist, which I am too but are they really helping the current resistance to fascism?

I have two separate reactions to the recent fuss over Antifa depending on the argument I am responding too.

To those on the right, who seem to jump at the chance to make Antifa the centerpeice of blame or a distraction from the antics of white supremacy groups. I say this... If you're going to promote bigotry and hatred, don't be surprised if you get some backsplash.

To those on the left, who support Antifa, I say this... Chill out.

As frustrating as the current government might be, it is still bound by a functioning framework of laws so it's not too late to leverage that constitutional system. In fact it's this system of laws that has so far stopped every white nationalist aspect of Trump's agenda in it's tracks. What the resistance needs is more emphasis on laws and local politics. A good example of resistance is the ACLU, an organization viciously hated by the right *because* they are so effective. And the ACLU is effective because they focus on our system of laws. Whenever you hear someone on the right saying "the liberals are destroying America", they are almost always describing their frustration (whether they know it or not) over ACLU victories within the context of our constitutional framework.

In contrast, Antifa is totally counterproductive. I *do* understand the frustration young Americans are feeling toward Trump and the white nationalists and the attraction of confronting them. I understand the feeling that you just want to beat the living shit out them. But this is the sentiment we hear being expressed by right-wing extremists about liberals, Jews, blacks and... well anyone who isn't a white nationalist. Do we really want to stoop to the same level? ...it's not a winning strategy.

Noam Chomsky recently described Antifa as a "major gift to the Right, including the militant Right, who are exuberant." Indeed they are because every time we accuse right-wing extremism of violence or intolerance, they have the ability to accuse the left-wing of the same thing and in the tiny minds that seem to gravitate to the extremes, one sin is a good excuse for another. So why give them such an easy pitch?

I'm not saying there will never be a point where violence *IS* the answer and I will admit that Antifa is a nice reminder that plenty of Americans are willing to confront the fascism of the white national movement but I don't think we've reached a point yet where we've run out of better alternatives. I think we need to give the constitutional system a little more faith because so far it's proving to be the better strategy.

Leave the violence to the fascists on the right and let the law handle it. Recognize the self-defeating nature of their violence. Look at Ruby Ridge, Waco and any of their idiot "stand-offs" did they win ANY of them? Look where their violence got them in Charlottesville... They went in with the intention of preserving one statue of Robert E. Lee and because of their violence (specifically, the murder of an American citizen) they came out loosing something like 19 different Confederate monuments throughout the country. That's what you call a backfire.

This is why the alt-right is loosing the America they want, because groups like the ACLU keep winning legal battles in the system, where the less-capable alt-right depends on public outrage to drive the battle which often results in violations of the legal system and guaranteed defeat.

We should try to keep it that way, at least while we still have a functioning constitutional system.

4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

So how do you define Antifa ?

You do realize Antifa protesters are closest thing today to Nazi Brownshirts

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

Pretty much.

Louie27 Loc: Peoria, AZ

There is one thing I do not understand about this post. I do not know where you get the idea that this administration is for the white nationalists. President Trump has denounced these groups time and time again. You seem to believe what ever the main stream media is force feeding you. I believe the people that obtained the permit for protesting the removal of the statue were not of the alt-right group. They are a minority of the right wing. Their hatred can not and should not be tolerated by either party. If people want these monuments removed they should go thru the courts and have their day of complaints aired, not do it by taking down a statue with out consent of the people. It seems to me the minority of people in this country want their way and to hell with the rest of society. How would the blacks and most others of this country react to the removal of the Martin Luther King Memorial. I believe they would raise a stink over that. Just my opinion.

Manning345 Loc: Richmond, Virginia

Seems that both sides in C'ville came ready to rumble, and both sides seem to represent the far sides of their respective ideologies. We have a serious debate going on now regarding Confederate Statues, which does rile up people, but the issue should be debated peacefully and respectfully. I live three blocks away from Monument Avenue here in Richmond, VA, and very near the statue of J.E.B. Stuart. For me, it would be a shame to tear down the Monument Avenue statues of Lee, Jackson, and Stuart, as they represent historical truths about their devotion to Virginia, and they do serve as a reminder that they fought for Virginia, not slavery, yet they also serve very cogently as a reminder that slavery is over and has been over with for 152 years. Looked at that way, it seems senseless to tear them down. One might ask "why now?" after all this time, must they be subjected to hate?

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

All things considered, an excellent post, StraightUp.

4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

Louie it all boils down to the fact that the progressives commie democrats LOST and they will continue to play this sick game till Trump is out of office.

Can you image what it would be like if Obama was treated like they are treating Trump ? ? ? ?

Randy131 Loc: Florida

{"To those on the right, who seem to jump at the chance to make Antifa the centerpeice of blame or a distraction from the antics of white supremacy groups."}

Well let me be the first to admit that I am a conservative Christian, and an American citizen, who does not put all the blame on AntiFa, for both at Charlottesville, and all the riots at the Berkley campus in California, the BLM fascists joined with the AntiFa fascists, to turn a protest at Berkley into a riot, with destruction of public and private property, attacks and assaults on anyone and everyone that didn't agree with them or their agenda, and if you were just standing there and watching, that proved you didn't agree with them since you weren't particpating, so you were physically attacked also. Then they denied the conservative speakers their right to free speech at an event that had been planned for a long time, yet shut down by the riots of the fascists AntiFa and BLM. If you don't think that they and their actions and methods qualify them as fascists, then you need to look up the definition of fascists. It was notable that most of them were wearing masks to keep from being identified, why would anyone do that if they were just planning a peaceful protest, sort of shows the anticipation of guilt, doesn't it.

At the Charlottesville riots, the abhorrent white supremist, KKK, and alt-right planned well in advance and got a permit for, after two tries, to have a rally march in favor of preserving our historical statues and monuments, which I disgree with most everything these groups stand for, but for this cause I agree, as does most southern people, unless they are black, and even many black people agree also.

But the AntiFa and BLM, knowing who was going to be marching in this rally, not taking into account it would also be many normal citizens who back the cause of the rally, decided they were going to use their fascist methods in a protest march against this rally march, which the AntiFa and BLM did not get a permit for, probably because they were denied if they tried, since a permit for that day had already been issued, masked up and armed themselves for a planned attack on the rally marchers, disguised as a protest march that was illegal because they were not issued a permit to do so. The rally marchers with the permit did nothing to anyone else, but defended themselves when the were attacked by the AntiFa and BLM, just as those fascist groups had done at Berkley, and I'd bet some of the same people attended both planned riots.

The white supremist, KKK, and alt-right are not innocent groups, and some of what they believe in is abhorrent, but they are American citizens, and have the right and freedom to march in a rally for the preservation of our historical statues and monuments, no matter what you or I think of them, for if their rights and freedoms can be taken from them by violent fascists, and every event that Antifa and BLM attend turns into a riot, and they're the ones that do the turning, while wearing masks to hide their identities and bring arms to supposedly peaceful events, and when those who are attacked fight back in self defense, they blame it on the ones who were originally attacked, and because they are liberal, progressive and Democratic advocacy groups, the Democrats and liberal biased mainstream media protect them and side with them, no matter how obvious their guilt in the violence that occurs, whereever they go.

Anyone who sides with the fascists, are as guilty as the fascists, who are perpetrating violence on others, and are huge hypocrites for siding with the guilty, just because they are part of their political group, the "EXACT SAME THING" that the left falsely accuses President Trump of. History proves that fascists are only from the left, the socialists, communists, and Marxists, who all fascists in world history have come from, and not a single right winger has ever in mankind's histroy been a fascists, for Hitler came to power through the German socialist party, as did Muslolini ten years prior to Hitler, and as did the English, French, other Europeans, and Americans who became fascists, also came from the ranks of socialists, communists, and marxists, and that is actually historical fact, as North Korea and Cuba has also proven to be true.

I will post some historical proof of what I just said on this site as soon as I can go back and retrieve it.

Randy131 Loc: Florida

The American Left Is Now The Party Of Fascism !!! History Repeats It's-Self !!!


August 9, 2017

The American Left Is Now The Party Of Fascism. The Democrats’ 'big lie', blaming own Fascist sins on Trump and Republicans.

Dinesh D'Souza
http://www.wnd.com/2017/08/sick-twist-american-left-is-now-party-of-fascism/


We hear the word “fascist” a whole lot these days: Trump is a fascist, if not a Nazi; The Republican Party is the fascist party.

As for the left, the Democrats, they present themselves as the anti-fascists, the people fighting fascism. We can see this in the names of leftist groups like Antifa, which stands for anti-fascism. Yet, when we look around, we see the Democratic and leftist protesters who are disrupting the inauguration. Who are organizing violent rallies around the country, who are stopping campus speakers from speaking.

These are people who seem to be using fascist and Nazi tactics. The masked Antifa thugs carrying weapons seem eerily similar to the fascist Blackshirts and the Nazi Brownshirts.

So isn’t it strange that the people purporting to fight fascism resemble the fascists in shutting down speech. And disrupting democratic debate through the use, or threats, of violence?

We need to look at fascism more closely and ask: Is fascism really a phenomenon of the left or of the right? Let’s begin with the remarkable statement by Adolf Hitler in a 1927 speech. “We are socialists,” he said. “We are the enemies of today’s capitalist system of exploitation and we are determined to destroy the system under all conditions.” Does that sound like Donald Trump? Actually, it sounds a lot more like Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders.

Hitler changed the name of the German Workers Party to the National Socialist German Workers Party. He wanted to emphasize that the Nazis were socialists, and that Nazi economic policy involved complete state control of the private sector. Indeed, the very name Nazi is a compression of the two terms “national” and “socialist.”

All the leading figures of early fascism, not merely in Germany, but also in Italy, France and England – were men of the left. Most of them moved seamlessly from Marxism and socialism, to fascism and Nazism during the 1920s and 1930s.

Here are some examples. Jean Allemane, famous for his role in the Dreyfus case, one of the great figures of French socialism, became a fascist. So did the socialist organizer Georges Valois. Marcel Deat, the founder of the Parti Socialiste de France, eventually quit and started a pro-fascist party in 1936. Jaques Doriot, a French communist, moved his Parti Populaire Francais into the fascist camp. Belgian socialist writer Henri de Man transitioned into becoming a fascist theoretician. In England, Oswald Mosley, a socialist and Labor Party Member of Parliament, broke with the laborites because he found them insufficiently radical. He later founded the British Union of Fascists and became the country’s leading Nazi sympathizer.

In Germany, there was a similar traffic from socialism to fascism. To give a single example, the socialist playwright Gerhart Hauptmann embraced Hitler’s National Socialism and produced plays during the Third Reich. After the war, he called himself a communist and staged his productions in Soviet-dominated East Berlin.

In Italy, philosopher Giovanni Gentile moved from Marxism to become fascism’s leading intellectual. Many Italian labor organizers made the same journey: Ottavio Dinale, Tullio, Masotti, Carlo Silvestri and Umberto Pasella. The socialist writer Agostino Lanzillo joined Mussolini’s parliament as a member of the fascist party.
Nicola Bombacci, one of the founders of the Italian Community Party, became Mussolini’s top adviser in 1943.
Gentile’s disciple Ugo Spirito, who also served Mussolini, moved from Marxism to fascism and then back to Marxism. Like Hauptmann, Spirito became a communist sympathizer after World War II and called for a new “synthesis” between communism and fascism.

All of this is incomprehensible if fascism is considered somehow “right wing.” None of these men saw it that way. They didn’t “convert” from left to right. Rather, they viewed themselves as moving seamlessly from one form of socialism to another. From a purely class-based socialism to a broader form of socialism that took into account class as well as national loyalties.

We can see this in the example of Mussolini, who established the world’s first fascist regime in Rome, a decade before Hitler came to power. Mussolini was the leading Marxist in Italy, the recognized leader of Italian socialism. After his successful March on Rome, Lenin sent his congratulations, praising Mussolini as a fellow revolutionary on the left. Mussolini’s career shows how fascism grew out of Marxism. Marx had predicted that the increased impoverishment of workers would cause a socialist revolution to erupt in the most advanced industrial countries: Germany and Great Britain.

That didn’t happen. This created the famous “crisis of Marxism” in the late 19th and early 20th century. Out of that crisis came two new forms of socialism: Leninist Bolshevism and Mussolini’s Fascism.

“The foundation of fascism,” Mussolini writes in his “Autobiography,” “is the conception of the state. Fascism conceives the State as an absolute. In comparison to which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. For us Fascists, the State … represents the immanent spirit of the nation.” Replace the word “fascism” with “progressivism,” and we could be hearing these words recited at a Democratic National Convention.

Mussolini broke with Marx on a single point. Marx insisted that workers are loyal only to their class. “The working man,” Marxists liked to say, “has no country.” Mussolini knew that people are no less attached to their nation than to their occupation. Consequently, Mussolini, like Hitler, embraced socialism of a special kind, namely national socialism.

Like the Marxists, the fascists and the Nazis also embraced violence as a revolutionary concept. Nazi violence involved disrupting campus events, threatening and beating up dissenters. And enforcing a conformity of thought and practice in line with the regnant ideology. Notice the close similarity between this fascist bullying and the conduct of the American left today.

In ideology and in tactics, the American left today is the party of fascism. The only difference is that it denies its true pedigree. Their big lie is to blame their own sins on Trump and the Republicans. In a sick twist, the real fascists in America pretend to be anti-fascists. And accuse the true anti-fascists of being fascists.

Randy131 Loc: Florida

Your opinion only, which does not make it so, since it ignores the real problem of fascists and who they really are in our society today. Those trying to force their wills on the rest of us, buy masking up and arming themselves to go to what they describe are protests, which every protest that they've particiapted in have turned into riots, with much destruction of public and private property, and physical violence perpetrated on everyone who does not agree with them. If you happened to be standing around and watching, but not participating in the riot, then you're their enemy, and are attacked and assaulted also.

This is exactly what has occured in all the Berkley campus riots, and the riots against a planned peaceful rally march in Charlottesville, which was planned well in advance, and the marchers had to apply twice for a permit before one was issued to them. The rally march was in support of the preservation of our historical statues and monuments, no matter what those statues and monuments are claimed to mean to others.

So who were the fascists? The ones who planned and applied for and got a permit well in advance, or the ones who masked-up and armed, for a protest that they had no permit for. If no violence was planned, then why wear a mask to hide your identity, and why bring arms to a peaceful, even though illegal, protest?

jets04

Yes but, AntiFa HATES HATEFUL PEOPLE!

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

Well, yeah, my opinion. Since this forum primarily consists of poster's opinions, to include yours, voicing mine should not be surprising to anyone. I might add, many cut 'n paste other's quotes and or opinions that echo or parrot their own. Nothing wrong with that, either...but, that does not guarantee any opinion to be other than that...an opinion. 'Facts' are often selectively chosen to align with the individual poster's views and do not necessarily constitute the truth. But, with regards to OPP and other forums, c'est la vie. Pick and choose as you please.

PoppaGringo Loc: Muslim City, Mexifornia, B.R.

Well thought out and stated.

Randy131 Loc: Florida

Yeah, but who are more hateful and spiteful people, than the members of AntiFa and BLM? Who likes to say that they attacked and harmed hateful people because they hated them. Does that sound reasonable to anyone. I don't care who hates who, but all Americans have the right to hold a peaceful rally march, for whatever their reason, as long as it is not against the law, and they get a permit to do so, which actually infringes on our rights, but these laws have been made and must be obeyed, until proven unconstitutional.

The Charlottesville rally marchers had a permit for a rally march in support of the preservation of our historical statues and monuments, but the AntiFa and BLM didn't have a permit for a protest march, which they were breaking the law for participating in one, and one might consider that a good reason for using masks to hide their identities, but what is their excuse for bringing arms to what they claim was a planned peaceful march, for neither of these tactics indicate a planned peaceful protest march.

Randy131 Loc: Florida

Well thank you PoppaGringo, but the whole truth and nothing but the truth is always well respected, unless you're a fascist with a different and violent agenda.