jSmitty45 Loc: Fl born, lived in Texas 30 yrs, now Louisiana

Amen!

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

Out of curiosity, Peter, are you familiar with the works/writings of Baruch Spinoza? I sense you may, at least, border on being a pantheist. Again, not knowing, I am asking out of curiosity.

Morgan

Your view of " God" is three dimensional, from the traditional bible, as if he were another Zeus, that is simple and primitive thinking, but again you discredit what is not seen or felt, as if intuition is hearsay and not real because you can't touch it and feel it. That is ludicrous, aside from tuition think again of all the things we couldn't see or touch, but in fact did exist, our technology is only beginning to catch up with all of that. There are many studies on the mind alone and how it is physically effected by the energy of thought, but do we see it or feel it... no. Do you believe the sixth sense is not just that? Is it something you've never felt and have been able to validate?

What is logic but only what we can understand. And no knowledge does not end and belief begins, knowledge moves forward,continues on, where belief begins.

Morgan

Excellent, good reading

Morgan

Since when does the fundamental animal existence use lying, cheating and stealing... well OK I can give you stealing, that happens but not the other two.

Nature is nature, there is a natural food chain, no evil intended. In the ocean we are not at the top of the food chain, that's a real reality check. We can even go as far as the beginning of the food chain being plant life as they are alive too and part of the circle of life. We are more conscious creatures, but that being said we can be the most cruel? As we kill for other reasons than food. Is that god's fault or ours? Nature in all of it's varieties tries to survive, which includes a living organisms as a virus. If the human race is knocked out by one is that God being cruel, as I see it lately it may be his endeavor to save the world. Are you of the belief the earth is our oyster... for us to see fit to do anything we want to, that's what we've been doing. Personally, I am not of the belief that the world and all of life in it was created just for us and at the mercy of our ego and will.

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

Yes, I found it compellingly so.

Morgan

More To point

Morgan

Great minds think alike

JW

Lying, cheating and stealing are all phases of the same thing. Jane Goodall related observing a chimpanzee deliberately leading its troupe away from a source of food it knew of and returning surreptitiously to eat while the others were foraging where it took them. The same kinds of behaviors are seen in monkeys, baboons and cats.

As I said, natural impulses are not malicious or demonstrative of greed. They are part of animal nature. My question is that since those behaviors do cause pain and suffering, and are part of the design, why would a benevolent and all powerful deity devise such a system? It is directly at odds with His stated purpose.

It is God who declared in Genesis that the world and everything in it was ours to do with as we pleased. Another example of His design being at odds with His words. No, He did not give it to us with the intent of seeing us destroy it but He gave us the ability and the desire to accomplish exactly that by submitting to our animal nature, His design.

Repeating myself, why would an intelligent, caring deity, capable of creating a universe in any manner He chose, choose to make one that requires one life to be forfeit for another life to prosper? Why would He create a system that feeds on cruelty and pain?

PeterS

It's not a belief, it's a paradox that develops when one has an ever knowing god. I'ts a flaw in how we created god. You can talk about free will all you like but when a god knows every move you are going to make, including the last one, free will become irrelevant...

Morgan

I don't believe in your concept, God is not an individual or a single entity, as say "a father" but rather... well I won't get into that now, but anyway how is that true? For example if you could foresee what( let say you have a child, which I don't know if you do or not,) and he took the keys to the car, and you saw what happened in the future, which was an accident if he chose to make a right and not a left, your instincts would be to somehow prevent it... correct, out of love, but if he does have complete free choice on what to do, you would not interfere, that is God, the divine presence. You do have freedom of choice on all you do, whether it is known or not.

How would we learn from our mistakes if God interfered at every wrong turn. How would we also know great joy if we didn't know deep sadness, how would we feel compassion for others, if we ourselves never felt pain.

Another example of free choice is... what are the long term effects or a ripple effect of what happens, in the long run may be for the better good of the whole, but at that moment we can't see that from our perspective. This is why as I said before our thoughts can change our future, by reaching to and connecting to ...all that is. Our time here is so small and our lives may seem insignificant to the big picture, but that doesn't mean we don't have a purpose here for ourselves, others and the world. But it is still what we make of it,still our choice.

Morgan

That's where we differ in concepts, I believe the bible to be written and interpreted men which is why there is so much that is contradictory. You quote from Genesis is a perfect example of man and ego.

"Not sure our meaning here...quote: He gave us the ability and the desire to accomplish exactly that by submitting to our animal nature, His design."

His design being...? Nature, as in animal behavior? His design... please clarify?

jSmitty45 Loc: Fl born, lived in Texas 30 yrs, now Louisiana

Very true God will never force himself on us. He gives us free choice. I have always told my children and others that in life we make choices, good or bad ones, however, there will be conquences of the choices we make. Sow bad seed, bad outcome. I would rather sow good seeds.

JW

If Genesis is correct, God created all things. All things are of His design. How everything functions is all part of its design. Ergo, God created the systems, the denizens, the behaviors and since God is all-knowing, He knew the end result of what He created before He created it... and He accepted that His creations would be impermanent and His creatures would suffer pain and anguish. He may not cause pain and anguish but He created the means to bring it into the world.

Morgan

Well...that's one theory

Just a consideration...God is not a he...or a her...I don't happen to believe the end result is known, JMO, Some things may be known, lets say the life expectancy of earth, but even that is an unknown, depends if we humans turn it into a dust bowl or not. You see the future is not an absolute, it is forever changing, forever manifesting. But maybe what is known is that each one of us carries a non destructive energy(our soul) and all the energy of the universe is connected... that does goes on...space has no linear time, so maybe we will all meet again...