JW

Let me begin by stating that I am an agnostic. For those who may not understand, an agnostic is not opposed to God nor opposed to religion as such. An agnostic is someone who has looked into his soul and found a void. An agnostic is someone who has searched but been unable to reach some rational conclusion other than I just don't know. No, I did not start out as an agnostic. I started out as a young man as a sincerely born again Christian and thought I had found the answer to that which so many seek, what is the meaning of life.

Perhaps my Christian past explains why I find so many Christian ideals admirable and laudable. However, I prefer to think that I find them so because they are fundamentally decent in a world that is anything but fundamentally decent.

That is where my problem with God begins.

If God is as advertised, capable of creating a fully functionally human creature and a complete universe in which to house and challenge him, why create one so fatally flawed?

Why create a universe whose most fundamental rule is that for one creature to survive, another must die? I know the argument, God created man so he could have a perfect communion and man failed Him… and that is the second problem I have with God. If God could see everything, past and future, He must have known man would fail Him. Knowing that and the unbounded pain and suffering it would bring into His world, why would He do it?

Ah, yes, I have heard that too. God wanted a way to separate the wheat from the chaff… but again, surely a God who knows all also knows which is the wheat and which is the chaff without beating them apart, without the flail. God is not some inveterate farmer, cursed to repeat His great-great-grandfather’s ancient ritual for gathering the makings of a loaf of bread. God is the all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful Creator of everything that is… so why does He create a universe designed to inflict pain and suffering on everything that lives?

If God is at the root of all of the rules of the universe, why are their results so terribly flawed? Why does he behave so much like an absentee landlord of some semi-abandoned rent controlled tenement block? If God is all that He is advertised to be, why doesn’t He perform beyond human expectations instead of barely meeting them.

Steve700

God is all about balance and has made the negative and the positive nearly equal as well as proof for his existence and reasons why it seems that He apparently does not exist. His lack of constant immediate all the time interaction is part of Not making His existence too obvious. You see God wants volunteers, and to understand that He exists require self-awareness, putting our selfishness and ego aside to some degree, and most of all a desire for truth. If you don't give a damn about truth and want to be your own God you're never going to find Him. I find fulfilled and fulfilling Bible prophecy to be an excellent proof, not only that God exists, but that the Christianity with the Bible is the true religion. The impossibility of so much of biblical prophecy that has been fulfilled just coming to be so by mere coincidence is beyond the realm of possibility. Also, the vast array of flying bugs and birds all so perfectly aerodynamically designed to fit their own specific ways of functioning efficiently on this planet, I find to be an excellent proof also of creationism and therefore God's existence. To think that all these creatures could come to be through the slow process of evolution is an absurdity. Can't you just imagine all these creatures with wings that aren't really wings yet flapping them for hundreds of thousands or more like millions of years trying to get off the ground. Slow evolution of such creatures cannot passively happen without some intelligent directing force knowing what the outcome is to be. Common sense dictates survival of the fittest cannot possibly be the driving force in this instance
.

Don't be like this arrogant and ignorant little narcissistic bird brain, believing the world to revolve around you and your self to be your own God

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

Did you have anything to eat and drink today? If so, did you do God's perfect will today? If not, why was food still provided for you? The first humans lived in paradise. They were told there was only one thing they could not do yet they used their free will and disobeyed God and from that loss of original righteousness and man's continuous exercise of his free will to do evil, you have the world we live in today. Don't blame God, His creation is still magnificent. And still, after all we've done, He continues to provide a way back to paradise. That's the brief summation.

teabag09

I think because we were given free will and he does kick in if you ask. Mike

JW

Well, Padre, telling me why you believe is not really addressing my questions. Still, I will attempt to address yours.

Yes, I ate today and the food was provided because I paid for it. To my point, at least two animals forfeited their lives so that I could fulfill my need. What terrible sins did they commit to be relegated to such a short and mean existence? How did human sin cause their lives to become so meaningless? Am I really of such a greater value than those two creatures?

Did I do God's will today? Not entirely, I am quite certain.

I certainly do not blame God. I'm not even convinced there is a God. What would I blame?

JW

Truth is all I really care about but myth isn't truth. Is God truth or myth? There is no means to prove God does not exist but there is no evidence that satisfies my need to know the truth. Belief/faith is defined nicely in the Bible "Heb 11:1 Now faith is assurance of [things] hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. " Notice that truth is not a part of that definition.

Evolution is a different discussion. This is a discussion about God, Himself, is He or isn't He?

confused one

My thoughts exactly. Then I think that we as a species are on a long march trying to acquire the powers which we attribute to God himself. From our vantage point today we can see that it'll be possible for mankind to someday control the weather, eradicate diseases, travel the galaxy and extend the human lifespan to hundreds of years. The problem that stands in our way is our inability overcome greed on one hand and moral restraints on the other. Greed will lead to wars that grow ever more vicious and moral restraints allows evil to flourish. Explain to me why we should as a society allow those who practice a barbaric ideology (called Islam) to coexist amongst us? We all know what their long range plan is for us. It's our moral compass that compels us from taking the necessary action.
The point is that it's up to us and not God to correct this mess that we've made.

JW

As long as we don't start believing we are gods, we'll be OK.

You're right, we need to fix the mess we made... and it is coming to the time that everyone is going to realize that fact.

Steve700

Some things are just unquestionably beyond the realm of being mere coincidence. Both all the creatures of flight and biblical prophecy are absolute sure indications of the hand of God. If you think enough about the flying creatures and how that could come to be just through the process of evolution without an intelligent designer God (what will become wings don't just appear out of nowhere and develop into aerodynamically perfect appendages without purpose) and if you know enough about biblical prophecy, there is no question but that there is a God, as well as that Christianity is the correct religion. To say it can't be proven is bull shit, except maybe to a moron. There are 300 prophecies about who that Christ would be that have been fulfilled and biblical end times prophecy that has been fulfilled up to the present time. The only thing left to happen now before the tribulations began is for 7 year peace agreement that they have been trying to get into place for the last 40 years, to come to fruition.

JW

Steve, nothing is unquestionable. Are you familiar with the parable of the talents? That says straight out that if your Master gives you something, you are to use it gainfully. If God gave us brains, He expects us to use them. According to the parable, He doesn't expect the same results from everyone. Nothing is unquestionable and we might all get different answers.

Steve700

I disagree. If you think that there is nothing unquestionable, I can only interpret that as meaning that there is no certainty about anything in your life. And that doesn't sound right. I would go further than that and say I don't have faith because I don't need it. I know, which is beyond faith and knowing -- Knowing with certainty beats the hell out of faith. I don't understand why you don't seem to comprehend what I said about some things being beyond the possibility of being mere coincidence, but obviously being from the hand of God. Read Rabbi Cohn's book The Harbinger and you will see what I mean. That jerked me out of a lifelong agnosticism and made be a true believer. There are also 2 28 minute videos with interviewer Sid Roth on the program It's Supernatural that are very good if you're curious enough to know what had such a profound effect on me.

goofball Loc: timbucktoo

It's called faith! If you have it you will understand it, if not you are Lost!
GOD bless you!

goofball Loc: timbucktoo

AMEN!

maryla

JW: The answer to your questions come from a study if the bible. It goes back to Adam and Eve. They caused sin to enter the world and that is why the world is so imperfect. Original sin is everywhere. My only peace is to study the word daily, because I don't want to take my faith for granted.

Study of some authors, I like Peter Kreeft, and CS Lewis could prove fruitful also. The purpose of suffering is to bring the sufferer closer to Christ

Abraham50

[quote=JW]Let me begin by stating that I am an agnostic. For those who may not understand, an agnostic is not opposed to God nor opposed to religion as such. An agnostic is someone who has looked into his soul and found a void. An agnostic is someone who has searched but been unable to reach some rational conclusion other than I just don't know. No, I did not start out as an agnostic. I started out as a young man as a sincerely born again Christian and thought I had found the answer to that which so many seek, what is the meaning of life.

Perhaps my Christian past explains why I find so many Christian ideals admirable and laudable. However, I prefer to think that I find them so because they are fundamentally decent in a world that is anything but fundamentally decent.

That is where my problem with God begins.

If God is as advertised, capable of creating a fully functionally human creature and a complete universe in which to house and challenge him, why create one so fatally flawed?

Why create a universe whose most fundamental rule is that for one creature to survive, another must die? I know the argument, God created man so he could have a perfect communion and man failed Him… and that is the second problem I have with God. If God could see everything, past and future, He must have known man would fail Him. Knowing that and the unbounded pain and suffering it would bring into His world, why would He do it?


May I suggest reading the book of JOB, Job questioned why does God allow bad things to happen to good people and good things to happen to bad people, God does answer Job's question's and puts him in his place and it's really for everyone to learn who God is. You will find faith in God or you won't, but HE's still the only true GOD (Jehovah) who created all and all things, period !! In case you don't want to read it, God answered JOB by saying to him, "Who do you think you are questioning my counsel, where were you when I created Heaven and Earth ?? Not in the book of JOB but explained through out the word of God, Man shouldn't ever question what God has done or what He's doing or what he says He's going to do. Have some faith in me. I'll take care of everything, worry for nothing for the day is full of evil, till Christ returns fight the good fight of faith, for its thru your faith in Christ you'll be saved. God's New Covenant with Man.