You have some things a little twisted around the axle. Those subprime mortgages were started by Cisneros who was HUD Secretary under Clinton with the honest intent of trying to give the American dream to the poor. Andrew Cuomo (another democrat) was one of the ones also turning the crank, but it wasn't until the GW administration that the thing went into full production of selling worthless securities as a good investment to the unsuspecting. How much government involvement there was in the whole thing is probably a lot more than most people suspect. Cuomo simply remade himself, coming out of the tunnel from the other end. At the Republican primaries Gingrich told us that he was paid 1.7M dollars as a consultant to FMCC. He said he was consulted about someone in government wanting them to buy these sub-prime mortgages. Gingrich said he advised against it and was paid his fee. Well, thats sort of like me telling you to put your jacket on when its cold outside. Lets not pretend that FMCC doesn't know anything about mortgages. They certainly know more about it than Gingrich and they were resisting buying them. We will probably never know what he was doing there but it certainly sounds like someone in government was orchestrating the whole thing. The rating agencies summarily rated these toxics as AAA, imagine!. AIG sold GS insurance (actually a short sale) while they continued to hawk these things as good. GW was totally at odds with Cheney toward the end of the reign. You can try to put all these dots together and form an opinion but I can't prove anything unless we get another Snowden to come forward.

Let's do something. Let's go back to Jan 2008 when the economy was about to go totally under. Just to refresh your memory:

1. Unemployment increasing at 800,000 jobs per month

2. 2 wars raging with no exit strategy in place.

3. Every bank and broker bankrupt or on the brink

4. Real estate prices spiraling downward with no end in sight.

Now, lets say McCain - Palin had won and lets apply the Republican strategies to fix this economy. No TARP, "Let 'em fail they deserve it" would have been the policy as we have come to understand it. That would add another 3.5 million unemployed onto unemployment already out of control. Real estate prices continue their downward spiral since, any buyers for it can't get a mortgage if they are all bankrupt. Tax breaks for the wealthy would not accomplish anything of note and the economy goes into deep depression. Do you see where these policies lead us, yes or no?

If you think I did not understand the Republican policies, you are free to correct me. What I am trying to do is get you to explain how your polices will work to bring us out of that recession.

Here, ask yourself a simple question, what did GW do wrong to allow the economy to go under like that. Did he not follow the conservative principles all along? Explain.

I know they have to be approved by Congress but its part of the Republican economic strategy. The root objection about Obamacare centers on the additional 3.5% tax one has to pay if he has more than $500K profit in the sale of real estate.

I don't believe for a minute that the Liberals have all the answers but I have come to the conclusion that the Conservatives are either totally clueless or have some undisclosed agenda in mind. Either way it is not for the benefit of the American public.

You're free to answer any of my 3 points that do have substance and are factual.

An independent gives some thought to the policies the politicians put out. We look at the effect they are likely to have.

For example, tax breaks for corporations will not work if the CEO could buy a nifty condo on a tropical island with the windfall. Or maybe a 2-masted ocean going sail boat. In order for it to help the economy it (corporate tax breaks) has to be spent on something that increases GDP, like advertising, capital equipment, factory expansion. Only under those circumstances could a tax break work. Then you could show how that would snowball into more jobs and keep on going.

But the Republican party is not trying to fix the economy, just make the rich people richer to the total exclusion of any other thing. That is my conclusion and should be yours as well.

I get this a lot. You did not answer my question but simply come back with some other rant totally unrelated. You have been totally brainwashed my friend, snap out of it.

[quote=Floyd Brown]The left has NO views that are not dictated to them through the party... the right is starting to awaken,, and changing,,, whereupon the left brands them r****t,,,, just like the party told them to.

So, my VIEW is that the left has very little thought into positions, but they have a lot of political talking points...





If I can jump in here a little, I want to make a point about the conservatives. I am an independent. The Republicans don't win in P**********l e******ns because they don't explain their point of view on anything. How do the conservative policies work? Show us. All they do is criticize and thats the end of their rant. If Republicans want my v**e what they have to do is the following:

1. Stop with Right to Life if you are against Obamacare. These additional welfare babies you want should at least be able to get health insurance and maybe financial assistance. Put a plan together that makes sense.

2. Stop trying to make rich people richer with tax breaks to fix the economy. Its a scheme to l**t the Treasury that does not work and its in the data record. We are still waiting for the trickle down from GWs tax breaks. What should have been done instead of TARP, we still don't know but all Republicans were against it.

3. Machine guns for everybody does not reduce the crime rate.

You have been wrapped around the axle by your politicans to the point you can't see anything that is true. If you look at Republican policies and carefully note who benefits from them, you will see that these policies are to further enrich the wealthy to the total exclusion of any other thing.

I said lets pretend that McCain | Palin had won in 2008 (that would be instead of Obama) and apply the Republican policies to restore the economy. (regardless of what caused the recession) Dig?

Cheney was known to spend day after day at the CIA HQ looking over intel trying find WMD and never could. Its very unusual for a VP to spend that much time at CIA and never coming up with anything. It was an embarrassment to GW's admin at the time. In return, GW refused to pardon Scooter Libby even after being asked 3 times by Cheney. GW was extremely at odds with Cheney

Ok, lets do this: pretend that McCain - Palin won in 2008 and lets apply Republican economic policies. First of all the economy was:

1. Unemployment increasing at 800,000 jobs per month.
2. 2 wars raging with lower taxes so we could not pay for it and no exit strategy in place.
3. Every bank and broker bankrupt or on the brink.
4. Real estate prices spiraling down with no end in sight

All Republicans were against TARP so "Let 'em fail, they deserve it" would have prevailed. That adds another 3.5 million unemployed onto unemployment already out of control. Any company going through bankruptcy court takes about 2 years or more. GM did it in 2.5. How long will it take for 52 companies to do the same? Around 15 years maybe?

Meanwhile, unemployment is still increasing. Tax breaks for the wealthy would not have accomplished anything of note. Real estate continues its downward spiral because any potential buyer can't get a mortgage anywhere.

I will give you price of gasoline stays same or goes down, so does the deficit. Great.

Now, do you see that these policies lead to total economic disaster? Yes or no.

Listen this idea that machine guns for everybody will reduce the crime rate is nonsense.

The problem is not Rubio, its the platform. We still don't have the trickle down from GW's tax cuts for the wealthy. That was 2003.

If he gets elected, we will show that his birth certificate is a forgery. Same way the righties tried to do it to Obama. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

It was not the tax cuts that lead to increased revenue, it was defense spending. GW spent 2X that of Clinton on defense. Tax cuts for the wealthy accomplish nothing. That's because the economy is in the hands of the middle class when it starts or stops spending. And they spend when they have jobs and that is exactly what Obama is doing, creating jobs.