Not being a masochist at heart, I'll no longer try to persuade those who are totally set in their ways, and object vociferously to anything that doesn't agree with their viewpoint. This will be my last post on OPP. I wish you well, even if I believe that you all are dead wrong. There's no point in my continuing.
Those with closed minds will not change them. "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts."
There are those who will be glad to see me go ... so be it.
<sigh> Once again, attacking the messenger and not the message. Projection is the hallmark for those that cannot answer with facts to prove their point.
To expand somewhat on this whole issue, we have to look at our own human nature. We prioritize our goals and ambitions based on where our basic requirments lie. Those (in order) are: self, family, group (tribe), and nation. This was evident in the Scottish tribes that fought the Romans in England. They feuded amongst themselves until the Romans came along, then banded together to fight the common enemy off, and once the battles were over, promptly resumed raiding and feuding with each other. Priorities escalated and deescalated depending on common goals.
Sports fans are another example of tribslidm, in that they have no actual connection to the team, but are fervent in their 'fandom' of their chosed group in ritualize warfare.
Religion is no exception. It is almost always an 'us vs. them' as being the only way to salvation. 'They' are any group or sect that doesn't believe as you do, and your tolerace for them is probably minimal.
As you may suspect, this carries over into racial, cultural, and political realms. Our viewpoint is the only one that is right, and we're going to stick with it, regardless of whether it would work for the common good of the society or not. All it takes is a charismatic leader that amplifies the fears and grievances of their followers to create a theocracy or dictatorship which never has good outcomes for the vast majority of its citizens.
Wonttakeitanymore wrote:
Our government was based on biblical principles pal
Actually, it was based on common principles shared by most religions, since they couldn't agree on which of their Christian sects should have priority in the Republic. The idea that Catholics in Maryland could agree with the Puritans in New England is preposterous.
Blade_Runner wrote:
Statements From Founding Fathers and Early Statesmen on Jesus, Christianity, and the Bible
For decades accusations against the Founding Fathers have abounded. One of the common criticisms is that the Founding Fathers were a collective group of atheists, agnostics, and or deists who wanted a strict separation of church and state, resulting in a secular government and public square. Some go as far as foolishly writing that these allegations are so evident that no actual evidence or proof is needed to substantiate their claims. While these charges are blatantly false, it can likewise be acknowledged that not every Founding Father or early American leader would fit in the category of born-again Christian (although most of them would). However, the overwhelming majority of Founding Fathers and early leaders wrote openly, and often about the influence of Christianity, the Bible and Jesus on their lives. While the following examples do not give the complete story of the faith journey of the individuals included in this list, these quotes and excerpts do give a glimpse into the thinking of these men. We encourage you to follow the footnotes and dig deeper into the writings of the Founding Fathers!
John Adams
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.
The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.
Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!
I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.
Elbridge Gerry
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; MEMBER OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS, GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
He called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . .
with one heart and voice we may prostrate ourselves at the throne of heavenly grace and present to our Great Benefactor sincere and unfeigned thanks for His infinite goodness and mercy towards us from our birth to the present moment for having above all things illuminated us by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, presenting to our view the happy prospect of a blessed immortality. And for our unparalleled ingratitude to that Adorable Being Who has seated us in a land irradiated by the cheering beams of the Gospel of Jesus Christ . . . let us fall prostrate before offended Deity, confess sincerely and penitently our manifold sins and our unworthiness of the least of His Divine favors, fervently implore His pardon through the merits of our mediator. And deeply impressed with a scene of our unparalleled ingratitude, let us contemplate the blessings which have flowed from the unlimited grave and favor of offended Deity, that we are still permitted to enjoy the first of Heaven’s blessings: the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
John Hancock
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS;
REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS
Sensible of the importance of Christian piety and virtue to the order and happiness of a state, I cannot but earnestly commend to you every measure for their support and encouragement.
He called on the entire state to pray “that universal happiness may be established in the world [and] that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the whole earth be filled with His glory.”
He also called on the State of Massachusetts to pray . . .
that all nations may bow to the scepter of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and that the whole earth may be filled with his glory.
that the spiritual kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be continually increasing until the whole earth shall be filled with His glory.
to confess their sins and to implore forgiveness of God through the merits of the Savior of the World.
to cause the benign religion of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be known, understood, and practiced among all the inhabitants of the earth.
to confess their sins before God and implore His forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
that He would finally overrule all events to the advancement of the Redeemer’s kingdom and the establishment of universal peace and good will among men.
that the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be established in peace and righteousness among all the nations of the earth.
that with true contrition of heart we may confess our sins, resolve to forsake them, and implore the Divine forgiveness, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, our Savior. . . . And finally to overrule all the commotions in the world to the spreading the true religion of our Lord Jesus Christ in its purity and power among all the people of the earth.
John Jay
PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; DIPLOMAT; AUTHOR OF THE FEDERALIST PAPERS;
ORIGINAL CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE U. S. SUPREME COURT; GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK
Condescend, merciful Father! to grant as far as proper these imperfect petitions, to accept these inadequate thanksgivings, and to pardon wh**ever of sin hath mingled in them for the sake of Jesus Christ, our blessed Lord and Savior; unto Whom, with Thee, and the blessed Spirit, ever one God, be rendered all honor and glory, now and forever.
Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved Son. . . . Blessed be His holy name.
Mercy and grace and favor did come by Jesus Christ, and also that t***h which verified the promises and predictions concerning Him and which exposed and corrected the various errors which had been imbibed respecting the Supreme Being, His attributes, laws, and dispensations.
By conveying the Bible to people . . . we certainly do them a most interesting act of kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced. The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer in whom all the nations of the earth should be blessed – that this Redeemer has made atonement “for the sins of the whole world,” and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy, has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve. The Bible will also [encourage] them with many explicit and consoling assurances of the Divine mercy to our fallen race, and with repeated invitations to accept the offers of pardon and reconciliation. . . . They, therefore, who enlist in His service, have the highest encouragement to fulfill the du¬ties assigned to their respective stations; for most certain it is, that those of His followers who [participate in] His conquests will also participate in the tran¬scendent glories and blessings of His Triumph.
I recommend a general and public return of praise and thanksgiving to Him from whose goodness these blessings descend. The most effectual means of securing the continuance of our civil and religious liberties is always to remember with reverence and gratitude the source from which they flow.
The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts.
[T]he evidence of the t***h of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds… they who undertake that task will derive advantages.
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
Thomas Jefferson
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE;
THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.
The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.
I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.
I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.
Congress, 1854
The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine t***hs of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.24
Congress, U. S. House Judiciary Committee, 1854
Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle… In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity… That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.
url=https://wallbuilders.com/founding-fathers-jes... (
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Ah, yes ... let's flood the zone with vast amounts of pre-organized material, so as to make the poster appear to be a constitutional scholar. little or npne of the material is relevant to the subject at hand.
The whole point was to point out that when a theocracy is pt in place, women and minorities are stuffed back into the boxes that were created for them, and the government will go to great legnths to keep them there. It never ends well.
It hasn't happened here yet (fully), but the signs are there, as they were in N**i Germany in 1933. Minority v****g suppression, diminution or elimination of L***Q rights (particularly those of t***s individuals, etc. the reimposition of prayer in schools ... you get the point. "Quantity does not make up for a lack of quality."
Sonny Magoo wrote:
You didn't print the whole story..no pun intended.
But he said this too...
the Second Amendment:
The m*****a is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic i**********ns and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace both from the enormous expenses with which they are attended and the facile means which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers to subvert the government or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers and will generally even if these are successful the first instance enable the people to resist and triumph over them. And yet though this t***h would seem so clear and the importance of a well regulated m*****a would seem so undeniable it cannot be disguised that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of m*****a discipline and a disposition from a sense of its burthens to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger that indifference may lead to disgust and disgust to contempt and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights.[44]
You didn't print the whole story..no pun intended.... (
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And this has to do with the interface between religion and governemt how?
From Joseph Story's Commentaries on the Constitution, Volume II, Book 3, Chapter IX, 1832...
" §621. In like manner there is a total absence of any qualification founded on religious opinions. However desirable it may be that every government should be administered by those who have a fixed religious belief and feel a deep responsibility to an infinitely wise and eternal Being. However strong may be our persuasion of the everlasting value of a belief in Christianity for our present as well as our immortal welfare, the history of the world has shown the extreme dangers, as well as difficulties, of connecting the civil power with religious opinions. Half the calamities, with which the human race have been scourged, have arisen from the union of church and state, and the people of America, above all others, have too largely partaken of the terrors and the sufferings of persecution for conscience’ sake, not to feel an excessive repugnance to the introduction of religious tests. Experience has demonstrated the folly as well as the injustice of exclusions from office founded upon religious opinions. They have aggravated all other evils in the political organization of societies. They carry in their train discord, oppression, and. bloodshed. They perpetuate a savage ferocity and insensibility to human rights and sufferings. Wherever they have been abolished, they have introduced peace and moderation, and enlightened legislation. Wberever they have been perpetuated, they have always checked, and in many cases have overturned all the securities of public liberty. The right to burn heretics survived in England almost to the close of the reign of Charles the Second, and it has been asserted, (but I have not been able to ascertain the fact by examination of the printed journals,) that on that occasion the whole bench of bishops v**ed against the repeal. We all know how slowly the Roman Catholics have recovered their just rights in England and Ireland. The triumph has been but just achieved, after a most painful contest for a half century. In the catholic countries, to this very hour, protestants are, for the most part, treated with a cold and reluctant jealousy, tolerated perhaps, but never cherished. In the actual situation of the United States, a union of the states would have been impractible from the known diversity of religious sects, if anything more, than a simple belief in Christianity in the most general form of expression, had been required. And even to this, some of the states would have objected as inconsistent with the fundamental policy of their own charters, constitutions, and laws. Wh**ever, . indeed, may have been the desire of many persons of a deep religious feeling, to have embodied some provision on this subject in the constitution, it may be safely affirmed that hitherto the absence has not been felt as an evil, and that while Christianity continues to be the belief of the enlightened, wise, and pure among the e*****rs, it is impossible that infidelity can find an easy home in the house of representatives.
"
To which I might add as examples, the theicracies of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan.
This quote from The Federalist Papers #1, by James Madison, first published in The Independent Journal on October 27, 1787, seems qppropriate to the present situation of democracy vs. autocracy in which we find ourselves.
"The subject speaks its own importance; comprehending in its consequences nothing less than the existence of the UNION, the safety and welfare of the parts of which it is composed, the fate of an empire in many respects the most interesting in the world. It has been frequently remarked that it seems to have been reserved to the people of this country, by their conduct and example, to decide the important question, whether societies of men are really capable or not of establishing good government from reflection and choice, or whether they are forever destined to depend for their political constitutions on accident and force. If there be any t***h in the remark, the crisis at which we are arrived may with propriety be regarded as the era in which that decision is to be made; …"
Now, 236 years later we have the same decision to make. I hope we make the right one...
okie don wrote:
~~~~~~~~
🤔
Sounds like something Bribem might compose.
But he didn't ... the quore is 240 years old. I realize that many of you actually think he's that old, but he ain't.
solarkin wrote:
huh ??
how much did that dude have to drink before that was written . Obsequious ,really ???
Obviously a product of the American Public School System, displaying a complete lack of United States History. 'Nuf said.
IF you say it applies to Biden, you'd be wrong.
From 3 John Adams, A Defense of the American Constitution, 284 to 286. Writt in 1787.
“If we should extend our candor so far, as to own, that the majority of mankind are generally under the d******n of benevolence and good intentions; yet it must be confessed, that a vast majority frequently t***sgress; and what is more decidedly in point, not only a majority, but almost all, confine their benevolence to their families, relations, personal friends, parish, village, city, county, province; and that very few indeed extend it impartially to the whole community. Now, grant but this t***h, and the question is decided. If a majority are capable of preferring their own private interests, or that of their families, counties, and party, to that of the nation collectively, some provision must be made in the constitution in favor of justice, to compel all to respect the common right, the public good, the universal law in preference to all private and partial considerations.”1 Again: “Of all possible forms of government, a sovereignty in one assembly, successively chosen by the people, is, perhaps, the best calculated to facilitate the gratification of self-love, and the pursuit of the private interests of a few individuals, A few eminent, conspicuous characters will be continued in their seats in the sovereign assembly from one e******n to another, wh**ever changes are made in the seats around them. By superior art, address, and opulence, by more splendid birth, reputations, and connections, they will be able to intrigue with the people, and their leaders out of doors, until they worm out most of their opposers, and introduce their friends. To this end they will bestow all offices, contracts, privileges in commerce, and other emoluments on the latter, and their connections, and
throw every vexation and disappointment in the way of the former, until they establish such a system of hopes and fears throughout the whole state, as shall enable them to carry a majority in every fresh e******n of the house. The judges will be appointed by them and their party, and of consequence will be obsequous enough to their inclinations. The whole judicial authority, as well as the executive, will be employed, perverted, and prostituted, to the purposes of e******neering. No justice will be attainable; nor will innocence or virtue be safe in the judicial courts, but for the friends of the prevailing leaders. Legal prosecutions will be instituted, and carried on against opposers to their vexation and ruin. And as they have the public purse at command, as well as the executive and judicial power, the public money will be expended in the same way. No favors will be attainable, but by those, who will court the ruling demagogues of the house, by v****g for their friends, and instruments; and pensions, and pecuniary rewards and gratifications, as well as honors, and offices of every kind, v**ed to friends and partisans, &c. &c. The press, that great barrier and bulwark of the rights of mankind, when it is protected by law, can no longer be free. If the authors, writers, and printers, will not accept of the hire, that will be offered them, they must submit to the ruin, that will be denounced against them. The presses, with much secrecy and concealment, will be made the vehicles of calumny against the minority, and of panegyric, and empirical applauses of the leaders of the majority, and no remedy can possibly be obtained. In one word, the whole system of affairs, and every conceivable motive of hope or fear, will be employed to promote the private interests of a few, and their obsequious majority; and
there is no remedy but in arms. Accordingly we find in all the Italian republics, the minority always were driven to arms in despair.”
Ladies and gentlemen, you have just witnessed what happens when cult followers are challenged with factual evidence that disagrees with their beliefs. There ensues a cloud of unsupported charges that lack any factual basis in provable fact. In this case, this wasn't the actual writings of the cult member, but pre-manufactured 'cut and paste' verbiage that the cult uses to deflect any criticism of their leader.
The whole idea of 'assymetrical justice' here is laughable. The investigation of H****r B***n has been going on for over five years without any tangible evidence of wrongdoing, with the exception of his failure to file tax documents, and his possession of a gun. That's it. The whole nine yards.
I realize that this whole exercise won't change any minds. If you had challenged the supporters of Jim Jones in South America, they wouldn't have listened either, and they drank the cyanide-laced koolade at his command. Whether the present cult followers would go to that extent is doubtful, but the principle is the same.
It is unfortnate that the enigmatic and charismatic cult leader at the heart of our political system is seeking to achieve power once again. If he succeeds, the entire democratic structure of our country, its constitution, rule of law, and basic civil rights will be a thing of the past, and we will be unable to recover them.
"My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."
Congratulations!!! You know how to cut and paste from pre-written Republican talking points!!! While verbose and well written, they have absolutely nothing to do with the indictments at hand in the legal/judical system.
Nice try, but no free beer.