In fact, many L**T couples adopt, nurture, care for and EDUCATE those abandoned or abused, unwanted but unaborted human children of Christians ... after they are born.

At the risk of further explosions...

As a non-Christian, I do not give Christians the right to tell me how to use my g*****ls. Perhaps this might make it more clear.

Religion is like a penis.
Its fine to have one.
Its fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and wave it around!
And don't try to shove it down my childrens' throats! -www.atheistmemebase.com-

Hey Folks,

I'm leaving you now. I have nothing further to offer as I can't quite understand what's going on. Hope to cross threads with you all again. Thanks for the hospitality.

Dear Larry,

I'm sorry I was too tired last night to answer your other points but I didn't want your interest in my thoughts to remain unrequited. (LOL)



I disagree. Incomplete theories and hypotheses (educated quesses) even if partly untrue, are still valuable in the prediction of future events and discoveries and in guiding future investigation and thought. I wonder if you are conflating value with ultimate t***h? And rules with law?



Civil/Criminal Law legislated by consensus can be changed. Consider Prohibition or Gay Marriage. So do you believe the US Constitution and the civil and penal codes derived from it are of no value? Or are you claiming it is not ultimately based on proven t***h because it can be ammended?

Scientific Laws are provable mathematically and are unchanging. This is the closest I can come to describing ultimate t***h. Consider gravity.



(I found this part of your post disturbingly bizarre and demonstrably wrong.) I just asked my brother if he thought rape is wrong. He said, "yup." Sorry, he left before I could ask him why he thinks so and before addressing the a******n question, but my sister in law works for an organization dedicated to abolishing a******n. My ex husband believed a******n was the right answer to his 16 year old daughter's unplanned pregnancy. So here is a woman who opposes a******n and a man who supports it.



My standard would be scientifically enlightened self interest tempered by respect for the needs and interests of others. "An' if it cause no ill to another, then do as ye wish."

Thank you, Larry. I guess I see belief as more nuanced and relative. Absolute proofs are for mathematics. For human behavioral decision making there is experience, logic and reason to aid one in deciding between available options. Reports of other's experience, logic and reason related personally or historically can help guide one's thinking and decision making. Group consensus is also valuable. It makes sense to consider carefully the merit of consensually held beliefs and values that are strongly held and upheld by prescription of law and supported by enforced punishment. These issues have generally been encountered and considered carefully by numerous folks with varying success. Consensus often connotes reliability in outcome. Evaluation of factual evidence at hand, trial and error, critical thinking and honest evaluation of outcome... the scientific method if you will.
And change? Oh, yes! New conflicting experience and information must be evaluated and integrated into the belief system if possible, and an entire theory or complete body of information can be proven false at times by single bit of new information.
'Absolutely unchangeable standard' strikes me a barren and lifeless! If someone proves a belief of mine is clearly wrong I will thank them, admit error and change. (Possibly nurse a bruised ego if it was a particularly beloved belief.)
Also different beliefs have varying degrees of importance and relevance. I think in general, the more crucial to our well being and welfare a belief or value is, the more we are prompted to explore and test and consider it. For me, to say, "God did it." seems like lazy thinking and is no more useful than, "I don't know." If magic is allowed, all bets are off. No need to bother trying to figure anything out because magic or gods can arbitrarily suspend reality. Is the experience of suspended reality synonymous with psychotic? I fear the hour is late and I am rambling! My apologies.

The dictionary defines the meaning of the word, not my belief, but I do agree with the standard meaning of the word.
In the USA the Constitution is the basis for the law.
Do you disagree that human life has value? The exact value of any commodity is consensus. One dollar is equal to 100 pennies because we all agree to that.
I'm not sure what you mean by character standard.
Ultimately I decide whether to agree with the consensus of opinions or not, based on my own experience and knowlege of the world around me as well as what seems to work or not. Essentially, wh**ever works while minimizing any resultant harm is permissible.
I am an atheist.
You seem to be commenting from a Christian religious point of view, yes? Are you pursuing this conversation with me because you wish to change my thinking or because you want to understand my thoughts?

It seems to me that there is not an absolute answer to that question. Murder is the unlawful ending of a human life. Problem is, laws CHANGE.
The Abrahamic offshoots, (Judaism, Islam, Christianity)
have religious books of law which mostly prohibit an individual k*****g for personal gain, yet give orders to regulate capital punishment, the conduct of wars and the proper method for aborting unwanted fetuses.
I don't murder other people because I value human life.

[quote=larry]All wars were and are started by atheists. Those that believe they are God in themselves. God has told us what He wants in His dictated word.

Hi Larry. Islam is a religion. Muslims are not atheists. Perhaps you meant non Christian? But Hitler was Catholic. President George Bush initiated the War on Terror by attacking Iraq, saying he felt that was what God wanted him to do.
I believe religious differences are a basis for many conflicts and wars when you broaden the definition of religion to include the fact that there are people in the world who worship other gods, and who worship your God in different ways.

Sorry! Can't beleve

Hi, can't believe. Thanks for the welcome! Having ideas picked apart sometimes lets one find new ways to put them back together. I did not intend to sound as if I feel superior. My apologies. Hopefully future conversations can help me illuminate this fault and give me a chance to correct it.

In general, atheists are a mixed bunch. Often the only thing in common is not believing in a deity. Some do have histories of religious abuse. Many have never been part of any religion. I've heard it said that leading a bunch of atheists is like trying to herd cats.
Most have not much interest in religions at all. Some no doubt stop by out of curiosity. Some atheists have a strong sense of morality and they recognize the serious harm that has and is being done in the name of religion.