Now I want you to understand that I am not trying to be harsh or offensive by what I am about to say. I am not trying to get attention. I came on this platform to promote what I feel is the truth as I see it - I thought this was a free speech platform. You and others have attacked me for my beliefs calling me a heretic, a deceiver etc., and that's fine, it really doesn't bother me. But you and the others either need to put up or shut up. If all you want to do is denigrate that's your prerogative but you are coming across as rather pharisaical and mean-spirited. And you can say all day long that I have been refuted in what I teach but certainly not by you or anyone else on this platform. The offer still stands for any one of you to step up and have a friendly debate.

Sorry, I don't know why I assumed you were a man. Now it makes more sense; I thought you were being kind of wimpy for a man.

Yeah, I didn't think it would. So I put the challenge out to any other trinitarian christian on this platform who would be interested in a civil debate on some aspect of christology or some specific scripture passage.

If you are so worried about me deceiving others, why don't you step up and be the man of God you declare yourself to be, and by the power of the Spirit you claim to possess, show me to be wrong by refutation of my position, so that everyone on this platform can see my folly, rather than by merely asserting that I am a deceiver and then running away.

If you are so worried about me deceiving others, why don't you step up and by the Spirit, which you claim to have, show me to be wrong by refutation of my arguments, so that everyone can see my folly; rather than simply asserting that I am a deceiver and then running away.

I would like to challenge you to a debate here on this forum. We can choose a subject, such as a particular passage of scripture or a topic regarding the deity of Jesus. We can then each give opening arguments followed by responses. Then we can ask questions of each other in turn. This would not be about who can outwit the other, but honestly presenting how we both arrive at our interpretation of scripture. We can do this in a cordial manner devoid of ad hominem. What say you?

Texacan,

Thanks for responding, but I wonder if you even read the article since I made many strong arguments in the article, none of which you addressed in your post.

As for the long quote from Mr. Torrey, all I can say is "What else would you expect from a committed apologist for orthodoxy." Many of the assertions he makes are absurd on their face. Let me give you some examples.

"The deity of Christ is in solution in every page of the New Testament."

Clearly this is overstating his position in the extreme. Of course it is true that trinitarians tend to see evidence for the deity of Jesus in many passages that really seem to puzzle me. There are some passages where I can see how one might tend to see the deity of Jesus, but there are so many offered by trinitarian apologists that do not even come close to proving this doctrine, yet these passages are counted along with the others as the "abundance of evidence."

"Every word that is spoken of Him, every word which He is reported to have spoken of Himself, is spoken on the assumption that He is God."

This is so manifestly an exaggeration and is simply untrue. This can even be seen in the Gospel of John, which is the one NT book which is supposed to teach the deity of Jesus in the clearest manner. Let's look at passages.

5:19 - "Then Jesus replied, "I assure you: The Son is not able to do anything on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does these things in the same way."

6:46 - "Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me."

7:16 - "So Jesus replied, "My teaching is not from me, but from the one who sent me."

11:27 - "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who was to come into the world."

12:49-50 - "For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

14:1 - "Do not let your hearts be distressed. You believe in God; believe also in me."

17:3 - "Now this is eternal life: that they know you (Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

20:17 - "Don't cling to Me," Jesus told her, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brothers and tell them that I am ascending to My Father and your Father--to My God and your God."

20:31 - "But these are written so that you may believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and by believing you may have life in His name."

I think we can agree that any learned and unbiased reader would see these passages as not promoting the thesis that Jesus is God, and so Torrey's assertion is is simply false.

Now regarding Torrey's remarks under the heading A Saturated Gospel, again he has overstated the case. So what if the angels are subject to the man Jesus of Nazareth, this proves nothing for the deity of Jesus. First off, if God wants all the angels subject to a human being whom He has raised up and appointed to rule then that is God's business. Are you going to tell Him he cannot do so? The scriptures are quite clear as to how Jesus derived this authority over angels and over all humanity as well:

Eph. 1:19-23 - . . . and what is the incomparable greatness of his power toward us who believe, as displayed in the exercise of his immense strength. This power he exercised in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms far above every rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And God put all things under Christ’s feet, and he gave him to the church as head over all things. Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Phil. 2:8-11 - . . . he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Heb. 1:4 - So He became higher in rank than the angels, just as the name He inherited is superior to theirs.

Heb. 2:9 - But we do see someone who was made a little lower than the angels. He is Jesus, who is crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might experience death for everyone.

1 Peter 3:21-22 -. . . through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who went into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels and authorities and powers subject to him.

Jesus was clearly given this authority by God subsequent to his resurrection because of his obedience in willingly laying down his life. We should also note that all believers will have authority over angels as well as over the whole world according to 1 Cor. 6:2-3. If this can be true of believers in Messiah without them being deity then why can not the same be true of Jesus.

Torrey's remarks under the heading Heaven Come To Earth make little sense. Nothing he says there would preclude Jesus being a human agent of God.

Under The Unique Position Torrey again resorts to extreme exaggeration as to what the texts actually say. He says, "He openly claims divine prerogatives—the reading of the heart of man, the forgiveness of sins, the exercise of all authority in heaven and earth."
How does this prove his deity? Again if God desires to give this to a representative of the human race are you going to tell Him He is wrong to do so? All the power and authority that Jesus possesses had to be given to him by God. He had none of it inherently; it was all bestowed upon him. But how can that be if he is eternal deity, co-equal with the Father?

Torrey says, "Indeed, all that God has and is He asserts Himself to have and be; omnipotence, omniscience, perfection belong as to the one so to the other."
But we have already seen that Jesus was not omnipotent. remember he said, "I an not able of myself to do anything." He was not omniscient since there were things he did not know, like the time of his coming in glory - see Mk. 13:32.

In the section The Great Proof Torrey just assumes that the power manifested in the work of Jesus is Jesus' own inherent power. No, God was at work in and through Jesus and still is to this day. There is divine power at work in Christ, it is the power of his God and Father.

In the final section Torrey assume the same as in the previous section - if there is a power manifested in the believer's life it must be the inherent power of Christ. But all throughout the NT our salvation is attributed to God, through Messiah Jesus. Torrey, like most Christians, mistakenly put Jesus our Lord in the place of God, who is the Father, relegating the Father to an almost obscure place. The authors of the NT never did any such thing.

There is not one thing Torrey said in the quote you presented that proves that the man Jesus of Nazareth was in fact the eternal God clothed in human flesh.

I don't understand your last statement; can you reword it?

Rose42,

1 John 5:1 - "Everyone who believes Jesus is the Messiah is born of God . . ."

I and every unitarian I know believes Jesus is the Messiah promised by God in the prophetic word. But now look at what John said next:

". . . and everyone who loves the father loves the one who has been born of him."

Be careful what you say about the Father's children.

Michael Rich,

Yes, the religion of Christianity is a mess; so far removed from the faith once delivered to the saints. I believe the apostles themselves did nit teach the deity of Jesus or the Trinity doctrine; these were later developments. As we move away from the apostolic era the earliest groups of Jewish believers believed that Jesus was a normal human being, but that he was the Messiah promised by God. All of the early church historians speak of these Jewish Christians as the direct descendants of the apostolic church of Judea and they clearly did not regard Jesus as deity. The idea of Jesus being more than a real man began to develop by the end of the 1st century among gentile believers who were steeped in Greek philosophy and by Christian gnostic groups. Eventually, by the 4th century Jesus had became of the same substance as God and by the end of that century the full blown Trinity doctrine became orthodoxy under the threat of Imperial decree. These ideas have been the default belief of Christians ever since, but there have always, in every century, been those who have rejected the official party line and have embraced the original faith of the apostles of Jesus. Most Christians do not have a clue about any of this and they never think to question the things they have been taught. But many in our day are coming to the simple faith once delivered to the saints.

Thanks. Yeah the concept of agency really is a key to correctly understanding much about how God operates, and especially about how Jesus is God's chief representative to man. But it is amazing how few Christians have ever even heard of the concept, even though it permeates the biblical record. I've been a Christian for 40 yrs and only discovered this truth about 6 yrs ago.

Only if you think the 'word' is equivalent to Jesus. I take the 'word' to be what it always was throughout the OT, God's declared purpose spoken in the prophets. If you are interested I have an article on the prologue of John.

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2020/04/12/prologue-of-the-gospel-of-john/

By the way the article of the OP is about whether Jesus claimed to be God. Did you read it?

Many believe that Jesus' statement "I and the father are one" is a claim to deity. In this article I show why this is not the best way to understand it.

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2020/09/17/john-1030-38-did-jesus-really-claim-to-be-god/

Rose42,

Concerning avoiding questions, I asked for your opinion regarding two quotes from trinitarian scholars and I haven't seen you respond, unless I missed it in the thread. And please respond with something of substance, not just insults.

I get why you come off as angry and insulting. Your cherished traditions have been ably challenged and you are unable to adequately answer that challenge. I can see where that would be frustrating.

Also, what's up with you and others here harassing Canuckus Deploracus? I don't remember reading in scripture that we are supposed to harass people into salvation by invective.