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Jan 30, 2022 01:38:32   #
Ricktloml wrote:
So if you have a conclusion to the question and you are firm in that conclusion you shouldn't comment. Some discussion.


Comment all you like but don't feel badly if you get ignored. This topic is not based on religious or scientific facts; more on speculation. It is about the paranormal. The position that t***h is being dispensed is a bit too committed to fit into this topic.
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Jan 30, 2022 01:33:07   #
skyrider wrote:
It would be great if this topic could evolve into its own section. We have 3 now, Main, Introduce, and chit chat.
How about a fourth? Any name suggestions that could be given to Admin for this?


How about Metaphysics and the Paranomal.
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Jan 30, 2022 01:29:38   #
skyrider wrote:
What's with the inability to spell the word GOD. I would really like to know.


Some beliefs regard any mention of God, other than teaching or praying, to be taking the lord's name in vain. Not spelling it out is a work-around. It demonstrates one's intent to not blaspheme.
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Jan 30, 2022 01:21:07   #
manning5 wrote:
============================

Good! We agree! Does JW agree?

Our real first steps are simple: 1. collect and document what we do know about UM/UC. 2. Use what we find out about means for accessing the UM to make strong attempts to achieve that. 3. We either succeed or fail at this point, singly or collectively. I am assuming that we will know when we succeed! In addition, the more people we have trying the better, I believe! I classify this approach as a Bottom Up one, not a Top Down one. In general, you can begin anywhere, of course, in your research, but some approaches are easier than others. In the end, you will course through it all anyway, if you have success. The UM itself will tell us what is true, I suppose! Which leads me to believe we should figure out just what we must ask of the UM in step 1.
============================ br br Good! We agre... (show quote)


I have no objection to the steps you laid out, but I think you are starting too far down the road. We need to synchronize our watches, so to speak.

What are we meaning by awareness, consciousness, universal mind, and the various terms we will be using? What are the inherent characteristics of those things.
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Jan 30, 2022 01:09:38   #
skyrider wrote:
Everyone uses that connection or there would only be "awareness" . Consciousness is much more than awareness because we are "aware that we are aware". A concept that is not produced by the brain (not computable), but rather is a product of the mind.


I see that differently. Consciousness is nothing more than the ability to respond to stimuli.

stimulus
[ˈstimyələs]
NOUN
stimuli (plural noun)

a thing or event that evokes a specific functional reaction in an organ or tissue.
"areas of the brain which respond to auditory stimuli"

a thing that rouses activity or energy in someone or something; a spur or incentive.



That is the definition I have known all of my life. By that definition, an automatic yard light, tripped by a motion detector, is conscious.

Awareness is the ability to assess stimuli, to understand why the yard light came on.

awareness noun

aware·​ness | \ ə-ˈwer-nəs \
Definition of awareness

: the quality or state of being aware : knowledge and understanding that something is happening or exists
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Jan 29, 2022 03:16:19   #
JW wrote:
Please, if you have only derision and name-calling to add, post it somewhere else. Everyone's contributions are welcome but, seriously, an honest request, let's keep this thread courteous and on topic.

I have spent many years trying to understand the reality that we exist within. Some people are convinced God created everything and others are convinced that God is a byproduct of everything that exists. Either way, we face the same question, where is the point of origin; was there a mysterious Big Bang that started everything or where did God come from in order to create everything. Neither point of view has a logical answer. Where is the point of origin?

So, if God created everything, where did God come from? One could argue that God has always existed but that makes no logical sense. If everything came out of the Big Bang, where did the thing that banged come from? One could say that the material that materialized has always existed but that makes no logical sense either. Perhaps our concept of logic is wrong.

Einstein developed an interesting concept when he presented the world with E=MC2. That equation is the basis of every nuclear power plant, every nuclear weapon and explains radioactive decay. It says that energy and matter can be converted into each other, E=MC2 and M=E/C2. We know it works. We've tested it and some of us are charging our computers by its output. That also confirms the validity of our logic, by the way.

Our brains work by electricity. OK, maybe not exactly, electricity like in your walls, but they do work because various chemicals move electrons about. That is what the EEG machine reads when a patient undergoes a scan.

Are there any circumstances that would allow for energy having always existed? Because, if there is, and if the brain runs on electrical energy then there is no reason God, or a universal mind, could not have evolved in a field of pure energy, able to think and, being energy, manipulate energy to its own ends. After all, brains did, not exactly the same way, I'll grant. We know for a fact that brains have a very long developmental history on Earth.

That is the basis of my considerations, so far. I have not reached a conclusion and may never accomplish that, but it is a beginning point... and yes, energy could have an infinite existence.
Please, if you have only derision and name-calling... (show quote)


It is said that God is omnipresent. That has always caused me difficulty as a concept. How can God possibly be everywhere all of the time? The idea that He might have agents observing for him belies the concept of omnipresence.

There is a way that God could be present everywhere all of the time. If our minds were connected to His, He could use His power to monitor all of us, all the time. From that comes the universal mind model. Is it possible that we can use that connection? Is it possible that we do use that connection?
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Jan 29, 2022 03:03:22   #
RobertV2 wrote:
The way I look at it, there would have been two possibilities: Possibility A is that there would never be anything anywhere at any time. It would just be absolute nothingness everywhere forever. Possibility B is that there would, at some time, be something. It doesn't matter to me what the something is; it could be a speck of dust, or something more elaborate.

I don't know which, Possibility A or Possibility B, is the more likely to occur. I _feel_ like I know, and will proceed to argue the point, but it might be a question that we are incapable of fully answering. And that's ok. (There are two possibilities there also: Possibility X is that we are capable of answering all conceivable questions. Possibility Y is that someday there will be some question that we are incapable of answering.)

Scholars (and not just religious ones) have already written about this. Here's a book I found about it:

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/a-universe-from-nothing-why-there-is-something-rather-than-nothing_richard-dawkins_lawrence-m-krauss/279762/item/4860998/?mkwid=%7cdc&pcrid=77515727468767&pkw=&pmt=be&slid=&product=4860998&plc=&pgrid=1240249359902158&ptaid=pla-4581115209376248&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Bing+Shopping+%7c+Science+and+Math+%7c+HIGH&utm_term=&utm_content=%7cdc%7cpcrid%7c77515727468767%7cpkw%7c%7cpmt%7cbe%7cproduct%7c4860998%7cslid%7c%7cpgrid%7c1240249359902158%7cptaid%7cpla-4581115209376248%7c&msclkid=5feefe0209a11b78f7689ff6c7b8f59a#idiq=4860998&edition=7010740

I started to read this book, a few years ago. After about the first quarter of it, I found it tedious because it goes on and on longer than I have patience for. However, if I remember correctly, this or some other author wrote that space is never completely empty: an empty space has infinitessimally small periods of time when it develops a negative charge and an equivalent positive charge, and these pairs wink in and out of existence very rapidly. This is not conclusive; but: I imagine that this could lead to "something" eventually appearing in what was empty space. It could happen by random accident: a couple of similar charges get close together at the same time, and thereby, suddenly, there's a little area of space which is not perfectly balanced; and so, voila', there is a thing there, like a tiny bit of energy or a speck of dust that remains in the space. So I imagine. Given an infinity of opportunities, it seems likely to me that something of the sort would eventually happen.

But set that book aside, and let's get back to my mainline argument. I find Possibility B (that there is eventually a "something" somewhere at some time) more likely or plausible, than Possibility A (the idea that there would never be anything anywhere at any time: just nothingness everywhere eternally). Possibility A requires perfection; if there were a speck of dust or an imperfection or the tiniest bit of stray energy -- or even a stray thought -- then that would be a Something. Who are we to suppose that such perfection (perfect nothingness for all space and all time) must be the case everywhere for all time? Who are we to say that just that particular kind of perfection is the most plausible scenario -- or, yet more extremely, the only possible scenario?

I settle on Possibility B (Something) as the more likely scenario.

Upon allowing that Possibility B can happen, the rest is a piece of cake. The entire universe as we know it would easily develop, as easily as falling off a log. All it takes is similar reasoning: step by step, we find that imperfections can occur and eventually lead to other imperfections. (The way I first imagined it, the first Something couldn't perfectly hold together for all of infinite eternity, and finally accidentally started to disintegrate into two or more Somethings; and so on. But now I just think a variety of Somethings arise out of empty space.) So a variety of Somethings arise. And physical laws arise, just because they're more likely to occur than a perfect lawlessness everywhere for all time; to wit:

Given that a Something occasionally exists, we can easily suppose that it is extremely likely that there will be many Somethings; and then we can easily suppose that (Rule 1) some Things last, or tend to last, longer than other things. The alternative to Rule 1 is that all things last exactly the same amount of time, or that they all behave in the same exact way; and that would be a perfection, but I think an occasional imperfection is more likely than absolute perfection for all time and all space. So I settle on Rule 1.

Given Rule 1, there is physical evolution.

(By the way, the game of Conway's Life illustrates how order can arise from chaos. I find that similar to my thoughts about Rule 1 and physical evolution.)

With all that, I'm satisfied that I have created our universe, conceptually.

(By the way, G-d could arise out of that physical evolution, or could arise out of some other kind of evolution, such as an evolution of thoughts.)

There's an additional idea -- or maybe it's an alternative idea: that universes pop in and out of existence all the time (and I suppose there's an infinite number of them). (This too (many universes popping in and out of existence) has been written about by some author or authors.). I feel that all possible universes exist, and maybe the vast majority of them fizzle out and don't amount to anything. At least one of them is a universe of complete nothingness, but some of them have Somethings in them. In all the vast infinity of possible universes, one of them happened to turn out like the one we're in: That one has a vast amount of empty space (or what looks empty to us), with some widely dispersed specks in it, so many specks that it boggles the mind to try to imagine how many there are. The vast majority of those specks don't amount to anything; they are barren as rocks -- or more barren than rocks. But they're not all perfectly barren; some of them got contaminated; and among all _those_ contaminated specks, a few of them got some physical evolution going, just by random chance (matching the concepts described above); and one of _those_ kind is Earth, and we happen to be a kind of Thing that can exist on Earth, and since it's the only world we're familiar with, we think it's the Greatest Thing Since Sliced Cheese, and that G-d must love us a lot to have created such a perfect world, but the only reason we think it's perfect is that this is the world that we happen to be on. Some other odd creature on some entirely different world in some entirely different universe would think the same about its world.

And in this particular universe, some of us laud how wonderfully fertile it is to have produced _us_, while a few of us glance out into the vast barrenness and wonder why the vast majority of the universe is so inhospitable to us -- could it be that G-d h**es us so he made vastly more area hostile to us than favorable to us? But no, I say, G-d doesn't h**e us; rather, mere randomness and physical evolution produce us, and produce G-d if there is a G-d or G-ds.
The way I look at it, there would have been two po... (show quote)


Interesting thoughts. I need to read it a few more times before I respond.
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Jan 29, 2022 01:45:25   #
saltwind 78 wrote:
The power of Judicial review was established in 1803 in the case of Marlborough v Madison. Since that time, the US Supreme Court has the power to determine the constitutionality of all state, and federal laws. Before this case there was a lot of discussion concerning what part of government should have the power to determine this. Thomas Jefferson believed that each state should have that power within its borders. Clearly that wouldn't have worked very well.


https://www.history.com/topics/united-states-constitution/marbury-v-madison
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Jan 29, 2022 01:26:52   #
random3 wrote:
We are living in the end times.

This lockdown is permanent.

Those who thought that the US was too big to be locked down now have found out that the entire world can easily be put under house arrest.

The elites will not stop because no one will resist.

Even if there is a v*****e for this v***s, the g*******ts will create another v***s scare or start another crisis by saying that the Russians are coming.

The ruling class will cull the 99% by using a******n, suicide, starvation, war, and concentration camps.

When the government says report to the town square, run for the woods.
We are living in the end times. br br This lockdo... (show quote)


That is what the French royalty thought in 1848. They were wrong then and the elites are wrong now.
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Jan 29, 2022 01:21:36   #
RobertV2 wrote:
I agree. In particular, the Bible is not useful for answering such questions as in the Original Post; the Original Post shows that a different kind of answer is wanted.

The Bible (or other books in religions) may be useful for other things though.


It's not that what religions teach that is the problem. It's their insistence that theirs' is the only acceptable answer.
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Jan 29, 2022 01:18:58   #
Parky60 wrote:
You're talking in circles JW. And how do you argue the case that God could have evolved from pure energy? You can't prove it.


How so?

Most of what will be covered in this discussion won't be proven. That is where the problem you present resides. Your position is that you have proof. The aim of this discussion is to ATTEMPT to make our case, mostly by inference.
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Jan 29, 2022 01:14:03   #
manning5 wrote:
===============================

There must be t***h in what you say. Energy is fundamental. I lean towards God is Mind as well as Body, thus Mind came first, that God's Mind is Universal, Timeless and Infinite, has an extension that is Universal and reachable, and He is capable of forming and sustaining energy as He wills, and thus He formed energy into a Big Bang, matter, life, and consciousness, and our bodies in His image, which He also sustains. I will not even try to substantiate these ideas, but they seem to follow Genesis fairly closely. Then too, there seems to have been a void that one could say was devoid of energy until God filled it with energy. "Let there be light..." I am very open to discussion here...

It could follow from this that he did in fact form a Strong Anthropic Universe that is perfectly conditioned to sustain life and Man. So many constants in the Universe are necessarily fine-tuned and stable for Man to exist. One list I read had about 36 principal constants that must not very by the smallest of amounts or we are goners! I wonder if there are other types of men on other planets that because of this Anthropic Universe are formed very much like we are.

As quantum theory suggested, undetectable communication at a distance by sub-particles has been demonstrated, which opens up a massive flood of speculation as to just what this can mean. Can thought be broadcast? Is there undetected but real body to body communication taking place all the time? Will we be able to discover how such communication takes place and use it? and so on... Then, given the Universal Mind, can we access it and use the information correctly? This so far undetectable means of communication needs to be known!
=============================== br br There must ... (show quote)


I agree, essentially. Where I run into trouble is the idea that the universe was created for us. I find it easier to think we were created for the universe.
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Jan 28, 2022 17:39:15   #
Parky60 wrote:
Pretty close-minded of you to say that I have nothing to offer. Isn't anything you say also a "sales job?" What I offer this discussion is the t***h. To reject it is your prerogative.


It's not a matter of open or closed minds, and I am not intending a sales job. The problem is that your position is not falsifiable. If I say that God could have evolved from pure energy, you can say, and probably will say, that God has always existed. How can I argue that? Any point I might want to discuss that falls outside of your orthodoxy can be dismissed by saying that isn't what the Bible says.

We need to be able to argue our cases from the standpoint of what can be proven or accept that the point must be left h*****g and move on to another point. That doesn't work if your answers all hinge on, the Bible says. If you can get past that, join in, if not, there is no point.
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Jan 28, 2022 15:28:28   #
manning5 wrote:
We began in the Private Messages here and exchanged emails. Email is our intended media, simply because of the kind of related issues that derail our UM focus. Send one to either of us and we will respond.


Sent my email address...
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Jan 28, 2022 15:18:50   #
random3 wrote:
Americans scream that they are resisting tyranny, wars, and debt, but do you see any protests?


Protests are neither the only ways to resist nor necessarily the best ways... especially with a corrupt authority.

Added: We are seeing an authority that has decided the rules are wh**ever they say they are. Protests can do nothing against that.
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